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canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you


Boiled Water posted:

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ka...-threading.html

Has this been discussed yet? If not I feel it deserves a view since pentiums with hyperthreading is a pretty big deal.

Phtt big deal, my Pentium 4 had that 13 years ago

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Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


mewse posted:

This is bullshit.

Fully agreed. Intel sees the writing on the wall of a shrinking consumer market, and is going to start acting like Oracle trying to squeeze every last cent out of business customers dependent on x86 servers. ECC compatibility is also gone on i3s, so that lightweight x86 server now costs a good bit more than it did last year.

Good news is ARM options are coming up quickly to fill this gap. With dedicated hardware for encryption and huge i/o bandwidth, they'll gladly fill the CPU-light edge server role.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Twerk from Home posted:

Good news is ARM options are coming up quickly to fill this gap. With dedicated hardware for encryption and huge i/o bandwidth, they'll gladly fill the CPU-light edge server role.

Which will be fine once either Plex starts supporting hardware encoding or the ARM chips get hefty enough to do so themselves. Or AMD has a server-light chip in their Ryzen lineup...

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

Twerk from Home posted:

Fully agreed. Intel sees the writing on the wall of a shrinking consumer market, and is going to start acting like Oracle trying to squeeze every last cent out of business customers dependent on x86 servers. ECC compatibility is also gone on i3s, so that lightweight x86 server now costs a good bit more than it did last year.

Good news is ARM options are coming up quickly to fill this gap. With dedicated hardware for encryption and huge i/o bandwidth, they'll gladly fill the CPU-light edge server role.

Intel consumer market revenue was up about 6% over last year, sooo I don't think it's shrinking too badly.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

Twerk from Home posted:


Good news is ARM options are coming up quickly to fill this gap. With dedicated hardware for encryption and huge i/o bandwidth, they'll gladly fill the CPU-light edge server role.

Haven't they been "coming up quickly" but never actually getting here for like, 5+ years now though?

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


fishmech posted:

Haven't they been "coming up quickly" but never actually getting here for like, 5+ years now though?

You can actually buy them now, and it might not even be a terrible decision: https://www.servethehome.com/exclus...arm-benchmarks/

Also you've got some hosting providers like Scaleway experimenting with even cheaper ARM options that are "good enough" for some lightweight work and absurdly cheap.

Edit: Software has matured by now and those Cavium boxes are way faster with recent versions of OpenSSL and gcc: https://www.servethehome.com/cavium...-need-machines/

Twerk from Home fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 10, 2017

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

We tried to buy some of the gigabyte calvium thunderx servers last year to evaluate and they were already EOL'd and unsupported. No luck finding a setup elsewhere either (although didn't look too hard).

Hoping ARM servers do show up and are easy to get but still waiting..

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


priznat posted:

We tried to buy some of the gigabyte calvium thunderx servers last year to evaluate and they were already EOL'd and unsupported. No luck finding a setup elsewhere either (although didn't look too hard).

Hoping ARM servers do show up and are easy to get but still waiting..

Didn't realize that and I certainly haven't evaluated them in person, that's pretty terrible.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

"You are the best poster... do not let anyone say otherwise."


Nobody's going to miss ECC ram in the Pentiums, come on. The ARM threat is a bit doubtful as well to be honest. Like if you have low CPU needs, just get a small slice from a cloud provider, where they'll run Xeons anyway.

However I think video editing is more relevant now than ever. Anyone who doesn't just upload unedited footage directly from their phone needs to at least cut the footage up and encode it in whatever format for YouTube. It's not an insignificant market, even channels with ranking about 10k have like half a million subscribers so there have to be tons of people.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Twerk from Home posted:

Didn't realize that and I certainly haven't evaluated them in person, that's pretty terrible.

They did manage to find one for us but it would have been like buying it from a sketchy ebay vendor with no returns and no support and it would have been pretty drat expensive ($14k for the 96 core one which is all they could source). Since there were a lot of unknowns we said no thanks.

From what we heard from customers is that no one was buying those. But it's weird they try to charge so much for them. I think the Xeon D and then the FPGA elements intel can start putting in will help protect them from the arm SoCs in the server space outside of some folks who just build their own architectures like google or amazon or alibaba. But they'll probably be mostly intel anyway.

I'm excited about being able to try out Ryzen for work risk free when they start shipping at least! Break up the monotony of all Intel stuff.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


Seems like ARM server could be really badass if someone put down the $$$ to make a chip on a newer process. It seems like the current ARM server stuff is all on older fab tech probably for cost reasons and therefor is going to have a hell of a time trying to compete directly with Intel's latest on performance/watt and such.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


mobby_6kl posted:

Nobody's going to miss ECC ram in the Pentiums, come on.

Home NAS builders / users will. There were plenty of small commercial NAS products using i3s or Pentiums as their CPUs with ECC RAM.

I guess those are going to get pushed to Atom-based CPUs, because there's sure not room for an E3 Xeon in the SOHO Synology / QNAP lines.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


mobby_6kl posted:

Nobody's going to miss ECC ram in the Pentiums, come on.

I was looking at them for my home storage solution

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






Twerk from Home posted:

Home NAS builders / users will. There were plenty of small commercial NAS products using i3s or Pentiums as their CPUs with ECC RAM.

I guess those are going to get pushed to Atom-based CPUs, because there's sure not room for an E3 Xeon in the SOHO Synology / QNAP lines.
apollo lake celerons and pentiums do NOT have ecc because intel thinks that's a feature worth 350 dollars (haha they were claiming ECC for apollo lake, right? that was a pretty good joke!!!!) but there's quad core 1.4ghz embedded atoms, only $299

zen can't come fast enough

Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 10, 2017

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

priznat posted:

They did manage to find one for us but it would have been like buying it from a sketchy ebay vendor with no returns and no support and it would have been pretty drat expensive ($14k for the 96 core one which is all they could source). Since there were a lot of unknowns we said no thanks.

From what we heard from customers is that no one was buying those. But it's weird they try to charge so much for them. I think the Xeon D and then the FPGA elements intel can start putting in will help protect them from the arm SoCs in the server space outside of some folks who just build their own architectures like google or amazon or alibaba. But they'll probably be mostly intel anyway.

I'm excited about being able to try out Ryzen for work risk free when they start shipping at least! Break up the monotony of all Intel stuff.

14k seems like a lot, although depending on what storage was included not necessarily an outrageous ripoff. A PowerEdge R730xd with dual E5-2660v4s, 256 gigs of ram, and comparable networking (40gig + 10gig) to the huge pile of ports on that Gigabyte board is a bit under 10k.


(Also jesus the OCD for ECC protection on linux ISOs at home is real)

Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 10, 2017

eames
May 9, 2009



PerrineClostermann posted:

I was looking at them for my home storage solution

Select Haswell home server models are fairly cheap now as they approach EOL. I bought a few new Dell Poweredge T20s with Xeon e3-1225v3 (quad 3.2 Ghz with ECC) for 200 each. They idle at at 12-15W and have no problem transcoding 4k content. Lenovo TS140 are similar.

eames fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 10, 2017

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






eames posted:

Select Haswell home server models are fairly cheap now as they approach EOL. I bought a few new Dell Poweredge T20s with Xeon e3-1225v3 (quad 3.2 Ghz with ECC) for 200 each. They idle at at 15W and have no problem transcoding 4k content. Lenovo TS140 are similar.
at that point you might as well go with a build-your-own decommissioned sandy bridge xeon firesale special for 50 more euros

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

at that point you might as well go with a build-your-own decommissioned sandy bridge xeon firesale special for 50 more euros

Why spend more to downgrade from Haswell to Sandy Bridge? The T20s/TS140's are solid little machines as long as you don't intend to try stuffing a half-dozen drives in there (or have a plan for an external drive rack).

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






DrDork posted:

Why spend more to downgrade from Haswell to Sandy Bridge? The T20s/TS140's are solid little machines as long as you don't intend to try stuffing a half-dozen drives in there

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

I am totally not regretting my Haswell i3-4130 purchase for a flat $100 years ago.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





necrobobsledder posted:

I am totally not regretting my Haswell i3-4130 purchase for a flat $100 years ago.

I think I got the Pentium G3258 for $56 or something a few years back to put in my HTPC. Still a good chip for what I use it for.

Though for a NAS, isn't 6 drives considered still on the Small side? I wish I had more than 4 for sure.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

EdEddnEddy posted:

Though for a NAS, isn't 6 drives considered still on the Small side? I wish I had more than 4 for sure.

Depends who you ask. I'd hazard to say that the majority of "normal people" who throw one together use 5 or less--hence the popularity of 2/4/5 drive pre-built NAS boxes. The population that's crazy enough to want/need 12+ disk arrays is probably quite small, but obviously vocal. So if you wander over to a NAS forum, yeah, <6 is going to be considered "small," but if you tell Average Joe you've got a 6 drive NAS he's going to wonder why the hell you'd ever need that much space.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.



Oven Wrangler

Anime Schoolgirl posted:

at that point you might as well go with a build-your-own decommissioned sandy bridge xeon firesale special for 50 more euros

The T20 is silent and idles at 30W. 1RU Sandy Bridge-E servers are loud, and IDK but I'd bet they use substantially more idling - I'm sure they do under load.

Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?


How much of problem is the ECC thing going to be for the home server crowd - will the chipsets be knackered to stop it happening? Recently it's been possible to run i5/i7 CPUs on ECC systems under certain circumstances when you wouldn't have expected to. I've been able to boot and run win 2012r2 in an HP ML10v2 with ECC RAM and an i5-4570.

Mr Chips fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jan 11, 2017

Boiled Water
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


Considering the tiny gains in performance other than power efficiency I doubt it'll make a big impact. Just buy last gens processor and get on with it.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-debug-exploit/

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled



Hey now it only effects U series processors...so basically all laptops that aren't quad core gaming/workstation laptops. Great.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






i have to believe this poo poo is on purpose just to shift the market towards AMD because goddamn

LiquidRain
May 21, 2007

Watch the madness!



The BIOS manufacturer has to have left JTAG and USB JTAG/DMI on for this to work. We don't know who has, and there's no way to tell without a JTAG debugger on you. (is my understanding)

Double Punctuation
Dec 30, 2009

Ships were made for sinking;
Whiskey made for drinking;
If we were made of cellophane
We'd all get stinking drunk much faster!



Read: People with physical access to your laptop can do whatever they want with it.

Boiled Water
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


Double Punctuation posted:

Read: People with physical access to your laptop can do whatever they want with it.

But now without the hassle of having to deal with screws and finding the connectors on the motherboard .

ohgodwhat
Aug 6, 2005



Double Punctuation posted:

Read: People with physical access to your laptop can do whatever they want with it.

This is why I leave my laptop unlocked with my financial information on screen whenever I leave it on the table at a coffee shop. Someone could get physical access so why bother locking it down?

The problem, from my perspective, is that this opens up a lot more surreptitious physical attacks, where now you can get JTAG access from momentary physical access without disturbing the look of the device, which was not possible before.

ItBurns
Jul 24, 2007


ohgodwhat posted:

This is why I leave my laptop unlocked with my financial information on screen whenever I leave it on the table at a coffee shop. Someone could get physical access so why bother locking it down?

The problem, from my perspective, is that this opens up a lot more surreptitious physical attacks, where now you can get JTAG access from momentary physical access without disturbing the look of the device, which was not possible before.

It's only a problem when it gets used by people outside of the NSA. Intel is looking out for you in the long run. Would you rather have a secure PC or another 9/11?

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Looks like it can only gently caress with the BIOS. I suppose you have to get really creative about it. I wanted to post about how it means nothing, given the BIOS loads the boot files and as soon the OS kernel is running, it'd be out of the picture... But then I remembered the BIOS updating stuff in my UEFI BIOS can actually use the network connection to download it from the Internet.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

ohgodwhat posted:


The problem, from my perspective, is that this opens up a lot more surreptitious physical attacks, where now you can get JTAG access from momentary physical access without disturbing the look of the device, which was not possible before.

You mean the sort of physical attacks that you could do with most laptops with say, Thunderbolt, or Firewire, or ExpressCard, and I think maybe PCMCIA? That is, attacks that let you extract a bunch of information from the running system and allow for the possibility of injecting some manner of malicious executable code.

ohgodwhat
Aug 6, 2005



Yeah? Those are bad too? Thanks fishmech.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

ohgodwhat posted:

Yeah? Those are bad too? Thanks fishmech.

The point is there's a shitload of these things already, and those methods all are a lot more practical too. And those are just ones that any random ook with a pre-built device could shove in.

Feel free to poo poo yourself and weld a metal bar over your laptop USB ports if you want, I guess.

ohgodwhat
Aug 6, 2005



"Boy howdy, you think that's bad? But other things are bad too so we might as well do nothing."

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

ohgodwhat posted:

"Boy howdy, you think that's bad? But other things are bad too so we might as well do nothing."

But there is nothing to do? Like there's not actually a problem with this sort of debugging being possible through the USB port.

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ohgodwhat
Aug 6, 2005



Not actually a problem:

fishmech posted:

That is, attacks that let you extract a bunch of information from the running system and allow for the possibility of injecting some manner of malicious executable code.

How many Skylake laptops have PCMCIA? How many have USB?

edit: To be clear since the point tends to fly over your head, if this wasn't possible with USB, this attack vector likely would not exist for many new laptops. That previous standards were also bad isn't exactly a defense.

Nor would it be inconceivable for manufacturers to take a bit more care with the design to make such functionality available, but not turned on by default. Will this affect a huge number of people? Probably not, but there's really no excuse for continuing to make the same bad decisions.

ohgodwhat fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jan 14, 2017

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