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Nomyth
Mar 15, 2013

And if a Nyto get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot


AVeryLargeRadish posted:

It's not just a cost issue, on smaller dies Intel found that the solder tended to crack after extended heating and cooling cycles, frequently destroying the chip underneath, on larger die chips like the 6+ core i7 and Xeon chips the solder holds up better because of the larger area to distribute heat into.

This is me not empty quoting

And for more reading http://overclocking.guide/the-truth...-cpu-soldering/

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EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





While th research on that all seems solid, what would it take for Intel to just make the CPU and GPU die sort of just one bigger die so that the size issue is gone and they can just resolder their lids properly again?

Or will this problem pretty much fix itself once 6-8 core consumer chips start becoming the norm?

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

What? Chips with iGPUs are already one integrated die.

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002



EdEddnEddy posted:

While th research on that all seems solid, what would it take for Intel to just make the CPU and GPU die sort of just one bigger die so that the size issue is gone and they can just resolder their lids properly again?

Or will this problem pretty much fix itself once 6-8 core consumer chips start becoming the norm?

Die area is money. The bigger the die is, the more that processor cost Intel.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





Oh I thought the iGPU was sort of separate from the GPU in a different way then when I last checked. Nevermind then.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


EdEddnEddy posted:

Oh I thought the iGPU was sort of separate from the GPU in a different way then when I last checked. Nevermind then.

It was with broadwell


ediT: im wrong, thats the special broadwell cache

Don Lapre fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 9, 2017

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Don Lapre posted:

It was with broadwell


Isn't that just the extra RAM? Crystalwell

Edit: I'm not 100% so I won't just assume

Double edit: Ah, not Crystalwell, but rather the PCH, it seems the GPU and CPU are still on one die

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Feb 9, 2017

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

That pic is a 5775C with the external cache!

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





Don Lapre posted:

It was with broadwell


Right, so I am not crazy as I remember seeing images like that somewhere lol.

So if you combined the two in a sense, wouldn't that increase the surface area enough to allow for the soldered lids to work again?

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.


Gwaihir posted:

That pic is a 5775C with the external cache!

Yea, i got confused by anandtechs block diagrams.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





Also images such as chips like these for mobile maybe.

Either way, i'll be sticking with the larger Xeon rejects for my own systems anyway, but the delid stuff is something to keep tabs on for any customer systems I build that are "gamers" in the future.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


Goddamnit, so it is Crystalwell, although maybe they don't call it that any longer. No idea.

The mobile example above has a separate PCH die. More here

vv Yeah, I think we just about have it cleared up now, mobile with PCH vs a desktop chip with the extra cache was causing the confusion. Ultimately, GPUs are on the same die as the CPU.

HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Feb 9, 2017

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

HalloKitty posted:

Isn't that just the extra RAM? Crystalwell

Edit: I'm not 100% so I won't just assume

Double edit: Ah, not Crystalwell, but rather the PCH, it seems the GPU and CPU are still on one die


There were no desktop chips with the PCH built in, that's definitely the external L4 cache. The ultramobile/SOC class chips did have a version that built in the PCH, but they're different looking dies and don't even have heatspreaders at all iirc.
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/9320/BDW-H-Map.png
e:
^Desktop version die shot

Mobile version:

e2: Hm, I'm preeety certain the mobile chips don't have heatspreaders, but now I want to yank an older laptop apart to check.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.



Oven Wrangler

I know for a fact that Sandy Bridge M-series and Skylake U-series chips both lack heatspreaders, so it seems like a safe bet that Broadwell/Haswell U/Y models do as well. Haven't actually seen one uncovered in person though.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

EdEddnEddy posted:

So if you combined the two in a sense, wouldn't that increase the surface area enough to allow for the soldered lids to work again?

Maybe, but (1) Intel seems not at all interested in continuing to pursue further chips with the eDRAM cache because reasons, and (2) it'd only be a short stop-over, as Intel continues to push for 7nm and smaller and smaller dies.

On the other hand, I bet AMD and Ryzen is big enough to solder with no problem!

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


DrDork posted:

On the other hand, I bet AMD and Ryzen is big enough to solder with no problem!

Ryzen's cores are supposedly a touch smaller than Intel's, but since they're going to give us 8 of them for a reasonable price (or so it looks like), then yeah, it will be pretty large overall

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


HalloKitty posted:

Ryzen's cores are supposedly a touch smaller than Intel's, but since they're going to give us 8 of them for a reasonable price (or so it looks like), then yeah, it will be pretty large overall

There's no iGPU on them, which might help.

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001



For reasons I cannot possibly guess at, Intel has decided to start the hype train on their 8th Generation Core i7-8000 Series:
http://wccftech.com/intel-core-i7-8...-gen-processors

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Maybe because they realized that the 7000-series is pretty hard to justify in terms of improvements over the 6000-series and is therefore getting basically no hype? I mean, a 15% improvement would be about the jump from 5000->7000, no?

PC LOAD LETTER
May 23, 2005
WTF?!

Slippery Tilde

DrDork posted:

a 15% improvement would be about the jump from 5000->7000, no?

More like 4000 to 7000 series chips. But yeah a 15% jump would be nice.

way late edit: LOL its a 15% jump in sysmark which is a poo poo synth bench nevermind

PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Feb 11, 2017

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


PerrineClostermann posted:

There's no iGPU on them, which might help.

Surely they wouldn't compare including iGPU area

Gwaihir
Dec 8, 2009



Hair Elf

HalloKitty posted:

Surely they wouldn't compare including iGPU area

That article can't be including iGPUs- The GT2 iGPU on a Kaby lake chip alone is like 55 mm^2, so that's larger than the 4 actual cores going by that article's table.

e: Anand's does a good breakdown of feature sizes in their latest CPU article: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11083...350k-60w-review

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


HalloKitty posted:

Surely they wouldn't compare including iGPU area

the iGPU would certainly figure into overall die area, and were were talking about the suitability of various dies for solder vs. other TIM, as I understood it.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


What kind of marketing voodoo is this chart based on? 6th and 7th generation are pretty much the exact same chip with identical IPC, are they assuming 15% higher clocks?

evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002



MaxxBot posted:

What kind of marketing voodoo is this chart based on? 6th and 7th generation are pretty much the exact same chip with identical IPC, are they assuming 15% higher clocks?



Yes, Kaby Lake chips are clocked a little higher so they're "better".

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


MaxxBot posted:

What kind of marketing voodoo is this chart based on? 6th and 7th generation are pretty much the exact same chip with identical IPC, are they assuming 15% higher clocks?



The old Netburst standby.

Moar Hurtz

Fats
Oct 13, 2006

What I cannot create, I do not understand

Fun Shoe

Rastor posted:

For reasons I cannot possibly guess at, Intel has decided to start the hype train on their 8th Generation Core i7-8000 Series:
http://wccftech.com/intel-core-i7-8...-gen-processors



I'm happy with my i7 920 -> 7700K jump, but that doesn't make me feel great about buying the drat thing.

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






https://twitter.com/tripgabriel/sta...534036951494658

maga

Col.Kiwi
Dec 28, 2004
And the grave digger puts on the forceps...

Eletriarnation posted:

I know for a fact that Sandy Bridge M-series and Skylake U-series chips both lack heatspreaders, so it seems like a safe bet that Broadwell/Haswell U/Y models do as well. Haven't actually seen one uncovered in person though.
I don't think I've ever seen a laptop CPU with an integrated heatspreader. I used to do computer repair and all the ones saw were a heatsink assembly mounted on a bare die, I'm under the impression laptops are pretty much always like that. Of course if you don't have a reason to remove the heatsink assembly you don't end up seeing the chip so maybe I'm wrong.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Since no one's posted it yet: http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/in...processors.html

Kind of a dick move by Intel, adding a "high-performance TIM" under the heatspreader. That's marketing for "we actually took our time with these."

Still - first news about chips using the new socket...and they're rather underwhelming.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


BIG HEADLINE posted:

Since no one's posted it yet: http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/in...processors.html

Kind of a dick move by Intel, adding a "high-performance TIM" under the heatspreader. That's marketing for "we actually took our time with these."

Still - first news about chips using the new socket...and they're rather underwhelming.

Where'd they mention the TIM? A quick skim and a ctrl+f didn't find it, though I am feeling a little tired and might have missed it

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002






i'm the 800+ pins not being used by gapey lake-x

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

PerrineClostermann posted:

Where'd they mention the TIM? A quick skim and a ctrl+f didn't find it, though I am feeling a little tired and might have missed it

Sorry - it was mentioned on TPU: https://www.techpowerup.com/230474/...112w-tdp-no-igp

"The chips also reportedly feature a high-performance thermal interface material (TIM) under the integrated heatspreaders (IHS)."

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Hey man, compared to mayonnaise, their current TIM is "high performance." They didn't say it was new.

Palladium
May 8, 2012


BIG HEADLINE posted:

Since no one's posted it yet: http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/in...processors.html

Kind of a dick move by Intel, adding a "high-performance TIM" under the heatspreader. That's marketing for "we actually took our time with these."

Still - first news about chips using the new socket...and they're rather underwhelming.

Given Intel antics, that HT-enabled i5 will be like $300 (with the iGPU removed from the die to save $$$) for Skylake HEDT mobos that costs $200 and up and they will wondering why the Internet lets out a collective meh.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Removing the iGPU adds cost, because it changes manufacturing. Most feature differences are just cut e-fuses.

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




I think he meant more 'make a kaby lake E/X i5'

eames
May 9, 2009



If those supposedly leaked Ryzen benchmarks are correct then Intel will need a lot more than "high performance TIM", heh.

Otakufag
Aug 23, 2004


Even if Ryzen rapes Intel like during the Athlon/Pentium 4 days, it is doubtful Intel will lower their prices right? They didn't lower them then as far as I know.

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Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013


Otakufag posted:

Even if Ryzen rapes Intel like during the Athlon/Pentium 4 days, it is doubtful Intel will lower their prices right? They didn't lower them then as far as I know.

Have you literally never taken any class related to economics, money, or business, while simultaneously never having any single conversation with anyone about how pricing works?

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