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Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


movax posted:

The IGP hardware accelerated decoding (IIRC) will put out 24.000, not 23.976. It's such a loving complaint, the CPU alone is more than powerful enough to decode 1080p H.264 with more flexibility than any hardware accelerated solution. No need to worry about resolution or encoding options, it just plays back.

It's in the IGP output, not the decoding. It doesn't matter whether or not you're using software decoding, it's just plain incapable of sending the right signal to the display. But apparently they have a software patch that will let you do 23.97hz, which comes out to dropping a single frame about every 2 1/2 minutes, so I'd still call it a pretty loving complaint. Plus the low-end HTPC targeted nvidia and ATI cards aren't exactly costly if it really bothers you that much.

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Alereon
Feb 6, 2004

Dehumanize yourself and face to Trumpshed

College Slice

CFox posted:

Probably a dumb question but I ordered the ASUS P8P67 and it comes with two 6.0 SATA ports and two Marvell 6.0 SATA ports. Since I'm only going to be using 3 hard drives I can just use the 6.0 ports and be fine correct? Also what's the deal with Marvell ports and are they better than the regular ones?
You should be fine, yes, but really I'd replace the board anyway. The Marvell ports offer 6GBps SATA, but aren't as fast as the Intel-provided ports.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



CFox posted:

Probably a dumb question but I ordered the ASUS P8P67 and it comes with two 6.0 SATA ports and two Marvell 6.0 SATA ports. Since I'm only going to be using 3 hard drives I can just use the 6.0 ports and be fine correct? Also what's the deal with Marvell ports and are they better than the regular ones?

Intel 6Gbps ports are fine yes.

The Marvell is just another SATA controller; it's connected to the system via a PCI Express x1 link. The arguable difference will be in driver stability/performance/support. I don't think the Marvell chips function well under Solaris, for instance, but Intel works fine.

Zhentar posted:

It's in the IGP output, not the decoding.

Oh, well, yeah that does kind of suck, then. I know my dad's projector (JVC RS-1) seems to only like 24Hz input. One dropped frame every 2.5 minutes, not a biggie, but as you said, I'd just do a low power discrete card (Nvidia most likely).

Also, thread title is amusing considering you can't use IDE drives with your board unless you sprung for the quasi-deluxe model that throws some PCIe IDE controller onboard, heh.

movax fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 31, 2011

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

Zhentar posted:

It's in the IGP output, not the decoding. It doesn't matter whether or not you're using software decoding, it's just plain incapable of sending the right signal to the display. But apparently they have a software patch that will let you do 23.97hz, which comes out to dropping a single frame about every 2 1/2 minutes, so I'd still call it a pretty loving complaint. Plus the low-end HTPC targeted nvidia and ATI cards aren't exactly costly if it really bothers you that much.

Where do people even get 23.976 media?

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

Munin posted:

Welp, time to switch where my drives are plugged in on my new built system...

Yeah I wondering this. As far as I can tell SATA is backwards and forwards compatible so I could run a normal HDD and DVD drive from the 6 Gb/s ports with no problems right?

Factory Factory
Mar 19, 2010

This is what
Arcane Velocity was like.


Yup.

fishmech posted:

Where do people even get 23.976 media?

DVDs intended to be played on a TV. NTSC does some crazy stuff, mang.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

fishmech posted:

Where do people even get 23.976 media?
All proper 24p content is actually 23.976fps.

Ryokurin
Jul 14, 2001

Wanna Die?

Zhentar posted:

It's in the IGP output, not the decoding. It doesn't matter whether or not you're using software decoding, it's just plain incapable of sending the right signal to the display. But apparently they have a software patch that will let you do 23.97hz, which comes out to dropping a single frame about every 2 1/2 minutes, so I'd still call it a pretty loving complaint. Plus the low-end HTPC targeted nvidia and ATI cards aren't exactly costly if it really bothers you that much.

Just like the people who can't stand CRT monitors that display at 60hz, the 23.95hz bug is a legit issue for people who can see it. And if my search is correct, the 'fix' isn't really a patch it's just a suggestion to disable UAC, and it only applies to Sandy Bridge, not Clarkedales. If you can't see judder be happy you can't. Maybe it's because I work with video every day and know what to look for but it basically made it a non option to me.

The big deal about this was that this was like the fourth time that a integrated platform was supposed to be the HTPC killer component and something about it hosed it up. 780g couldn't do 7.1 sound, 8300 can't handle 1080i, and Intel has floated on not being able to accelerate what was promised, to not being able to play without judder.

LastCaress posted:

gently caress, bought my asus p8p67 deluxe last friday :\ Read somewhere that boards made before jan 9th were not affected? There's still hope.

January 9th is the original ship date for Sandy Bridge. They pointed it out to make sure people knew they were talking about that and not Clarkedale. If you got it early you still are affected.

frumpsnake
Jan 30, 2001

The sad part is, he wasn't always evil.

fishmech posted:

Where do people even get 23.976 media?

60Hz is actually 59.94Hz and by extension 24Hz is 23.976. You divide by 1.001.

madprocess
Sep 23, 2004

by Ozmaugh


frumpsnake posted:

60Hz is actually 59.94Hz and by extension 24Hz is 23.976. You divide by 1.001.

Yeah but unless you have a CRT how are you going to be seeing that? Take your average LCD and it just runs at actual 60 hertz, not 59.94. About the only LCD panels that actually refresh at 59.94 are old SD-only LCD TVs.

Your computer monitor is refreshing at fully 60 hz anyway, so there's always going to be lost frames.

Combat Pretzel posted:

All proper 24p content is actually 23.976fps.

Only film masters made for display on American TV sets (usually of TV shows) is 23.976fps. They defintirly don't use 23.976fps in PAL-land.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.


So what are the symptoms of this problem, meaning when can you tell that things are starting to actually gently caress up, rather then there just being the possibility of a problem? Can you know for certain whether you have or have not experienced the issue yet?

AzraelNewtype
Nov 9, 2004

「ブレストバーン!!」


madprocess posted:

Only film masters made for display on American TV sets (usually of TV shows) is 23.976fps. They defintirly don't use 23.976fps in PAL-land.

TV shows vary much more widely between 23.976 (NTSC film) and 29.97 (NTSC video) than you're thinking. Movies are all going to be 23.976 unless they're truly bizarre though. PAL is 25fps by the way.

madprocess
Sep 23, 2004

by Ozmaugh


AzraelNewtype posted:

TV shows vary much more widely between 23.976 (NTSC film) and 29.97 (NTSC video) than you're thinking. Movies are all going to be 23.976 unless they're truly bizarre though. PAL is 25fps by the way.

Shows shot on film meant for TV use in America are 23.976. This is because it makes an easy 3:2 pulldown versus 24 fps.

Most good TV shows are shot on film, esepcially in the 60s-90s before all digital.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

madprocess posted:

They defintirly don't use 23.976fps in PAL-land.
Our European HDTVs do support 24p. And Blurays here are also 24p.

madprocess
Sep 23, 2004

by Ozmaugh


Combat Pretzel posted:

Our European HDTVs do support 24p. And Blurays here are also 24p.

23.976 is not 24.

hatersg2haet
Nov 10, 2010

by Fistgrrl


Intel should of just done as Seagate does and ignored a fatal flaw in their hardware and tried to sue any customer that brings it up!

dud root
Mar 30, 2008


AzraelNewtype posted:

TV shows vary much more widely between 23.976 (NTSC film) and 29.97 (NTSC video) than you're thinking. Movies are all going to be 23.976 unless they're truly bizarre though. PAL is 25fps by the way.

So in PAL-land a NTSC (lets say 30fps for simplicity) video will run 30/25 % slower since the total amount of frames is constant? Or do they drop frames to keep playtime the same

spasticColon
Sep 22, 2004

In loving memory of Donald Pleasance

Didn't someone on here (I think it was Sebrenica Surprise) mentioned that new platform launches come with motherboard and bios glitches and quirks? This is more than just a "quirk" so now I don't feel so bad not upgrading to Sandy Bridge and upgraded my defunct video card instead.

A friend of mine ordered parts for a Sandy Bridge system a week ago or so but hasn't built it yet because he's waiting on a P183 case so should he wait to see if he can get a replacement for his motherboard? I believe he ordered the ASUS P8P67 Pro ATX board but I'm not sure.

Srebrenica Surprise
Aug 23, 2008

"L-O-V-E's just another word I never learned to pronounce."


This wasn't exactly what I meant but yeah. The Lynnfield launch was a good example of the more minor issues: basically everybody had been recommending Gigabyte P35/P45 since forever, and I think one of my early posts in the old parts picking thread was a list of all these reasons why you should buy a Gigabyte P55-UD2 or whatever over equivalent P55 boards. Turned out that while the overwhelming majority were okay, some people with different RAM ended up having memory compatibility issues and HOTS was full of people with new i5 750 builds that were all hosed up. P67 launched pretty well with regard to weird board-related quirks but nobody buying this early should expect completely smooth sailing.

That said, I'd rather have to plug my drives into the SATA 6gbps or Marvell SATA slots instead of 3gbps than have to return my motherboard or RAM to NewEgg, get hit with a restocking fee, and pick another, so I guess it's progress.

Gromit
Aug 15, 2000

I am an oppressed White Male, Asian women wont serve me! Save me Campbell Newman!!!!!!!


dud root posted:

So in PAL-land a NTSC (lets say 30fps for simplicity) video will run 30/25 % slower since the total amount of frames is constant? Or do they drop frames to keep playtime the same

I think it plays at a different speed, yes, but it's been a long time since I've tried something like that.

Alereon
Feb 6, 2004

Dehumanize yourself and face to Trumpshed

College Slice

Anandtech just posted another article with even more details of the defect. Due to a design error, part of the PLL for the SATA300 ports is receiving too much voltage, leading to it burning out. This failure will occur over time, and will be accelerated by increased voltage and/or temperature.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend


dud root posted:

So in PAL-land a NTSC (lets say 30fps for simplicity) video will run 30/25 % slower since the total amount of frames is constant? Or do they drop frames to keep playtime the same

They drop frames to get to the standard. Also, 23.98 is NOT 24. Dropping a frame may not seem like a big deal, but the drift adds up in a hurry. At 1 frame per 2.5 min you watch 10 minutes and you've got a 17% drift, which is noticeable by almost anyone.

Most Blu-Ray content is 1080p24.

Ryokurin
Jul 14, 2001

Wanna Die?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So what are the symptoms of this problem, meaning when can you tell that things are starting to actually gently caress up, rather then there just being the possibility of a problem? Can you know for certain whether you have or have not experienced the issue yet?

Think of it as like a slight glitch in frames every couple of minutes or so (at least with their fix) in straight 24p it happens every 20-40 seconds however. Anyhow, if you really want to understand it look up judder on google, but keep in mind once you know how to look for it and you find it, you'll probably notice it from here on out.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

mayodreams posted:

They drop frames to get to the standard. Also, 23.98 is NOT 24. Dropping a frame may not seem like a big deal, but the drift adds up in a hurry. At 1 frame per 2.5 min you watch 10 minutes and you've got a 17% drift, which is noticeable by almost anyone.

Most Blu-Ray content is 1080p24.

But does anyone actually have monitors that play back at 23.97 or whatever? I mean no matter what you do you're going to be doing some flavor of pulldown on a 60 hz monitor or 59.94 hz sdtv to display 23.97 fps or 24 fps content

fuseshock
Aug 7, 2010


Positive news, I just finished running Prime95 small FFT's for 24 hours at 4.5GHz pulling 1.32v on an i5-2500k.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend


fishmech posted:

But does anyone actually have monitors that play back at 23.97 or whatever? I mean no matter what you do you're going to be doing some flavor of pulldown on a 60 hz monitor or 59.94 hz sdtv to display 23.97 fps or 24 fps content

A lot of newer LCD tv's have a native 24p mode, and since a lot of people were trying to use these boards in HTPC's, that causes an issue. You are right that almost no monitors support that.

Ryokurin
Jul 14, 2001

Wanna Die?

fishmech posted:

But does anyone actually have monitors that play back at 23.97 or whatever? I mean no matter what you do you're going to be doing some flavor of pulldown on a 60 hz monitor or 59.94 hz sdtv to display 23.97 fps or 24 fps content

Yes. My 3 year old Samsung A650 has a 24P mode, even though it's a undocumented feature that will only show up if the device tries it.

The thing is, 23.97 or 59.94 is the correct standard. when NTSC was started for the first couple of years it was set to 60hz, but then lowered to 59.94 due to issues of getting hardware that could lock on to that exact speed. it was a tolerance concession. Anyhow, people have just shortened it to 24fps or 60fps for clarity, so any monitor, NTSC, ATSC or computer monitor should take either with ease.

Alereon
Feb 6, 2004

Dehumanize yourself and face to Trumpshed

College Slice

mayodreams posted:

They drop frames to get to the standard. Also, 23.98 is NOT 24. Dropping a frame may not seem like a big deal, but the drift adds up in a hurry. At 1 frame per 2.5 min you watch 10 minutes and you've got a 17% drift, which is noticeable by almost anyone.
There is no drift, the video and audio are fully back in synch at the start of the pulldown cadence. They play 24p movies on PAL (25p/50i) by just speeding them up slightly, which prevents desynch and judder, but it reduces running time and they have to do pitch correction so that actors' voices don't noticeably change.

DuckConference
May 27, 2004



Alereon posted:

Anandtech just posted another article with even more details of the defect. Due to a design error, part of the PLL for the SATA300 ports is receiving too much voltage, leading to it burning out. This failure will occur over time, and will be accelerated by increased voltage and/or temperature.

I'm not sure I get the explanation. Why would you bias a logic transistor? Generally the gate of a logic transistor is going to be at 0 or the supply voltage (ignoring the leakage from the previous stage) so I don't see where bias comes in.

Also, shouldn't large blocks of the chip have the same supply voltage and same gate oxide thickness?

DJ Commie
Feb 29, 2004

Stupid drivers always breaking car, Gronk fix car...


mayodreams posted:

They drop frames to get to the standard. Also, 23.98 is NOT 24. Dropping a frame may not seem like a big deal, but the drift adds up in a hurry. At 1 frame per 2.5 min you watch 10 minutes and you've got a 17% drift, which is noticeable by almost anyone.

Most Blu-Ray content is 1080p24.

Dropping one frame every 3597 (2.5m*23.98f/sec)is not anywhere near 17%. Did you mean you drop a second every 2.5minutes? That isn't 17% either.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames


Salad Prong

Ryokurin posted:

Yes. My 3 year old Samsung A650 has a 24P mode, even though it's a undocumented feature that will only show up if the device tries it.

The thing is, 23.97 or 59.94 is the correct standard. when NTSC was started for the first couple of years it was set to 60hz, but then lowered to 59.94 due to issues of getting hardware that could lock on to that exact speed. it was a tolerance concession. Anyhow, people have just shortened it to 24fps or 60fps for clarity, so any monitor, NTSC, ATSC or computer monitor should take either with ease.

Can you show me where it says all the monitors out there marked at 60 hz actually run at 59.94 hz because I mean you'd think it would at least note that in the back of the manual.

A decade old CRT SDTV runs at 59.94 hz yes but the only LCD device I've ever seen that ran at that was one of the first generation of cheap SDTV LCDs.

dud root
Mar 30, 2008


DuckConference posted:

I'm not sure I get the explanation. Why would you bias a logic transistor? Generally the gate of a logic transistor is going to be at 0 or the supply voltage (ignoring the leakage from the previous stage) so I don't see where bias comes in.

From memory logic/digital transistors simply have internal resistors, ie internal bias.

edit: or that article uses a computer type definition rather than elec eng, ie 'logic' to differentiate between a power transistor.

dud root fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Feb 1, 2011

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend


DJ Commie posted:

Dropping one frame every 3597 (2.5m*23.98f/sec)is not anywhere near 17%. Did you mean you drop a second every 2.5minutes? That isn't 17% either.

Yeah, that isn't right. It has been a long day. I had to solve an issue with lovely drivers from Sonnet and their tech support is worthless.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Put simply, digital displays and videos have been hosed from their inception. Gamma only exists as a compensation factor for analog CRTs, specifically as a factor to compensate for the input-output characteristic of CRTs.

Hollywood decided on 24fps (23.976, it is 24fps colloquially), gently caress everyone.

TV decided on 30fps (29.976fps, 60 fields/second), gently caress everyone else.

Now you need a display that can display both of these framerates (and 25fps in PAL land). And also handle interlaced/progressive content. And do it all perfectly. Thus show up such evils as pulldowns (+ telecine), 120Hz and many other myriad technologies that claim to do their job. All consumers want is to be able to watch the latest lovely episode of Survivor and the latest shitpile of a rom-com on their TV they bought with their tax refund without any juttering or other issues.

e: I suppose that goal is achievable for most people, but if you're a video geek, work with video regularly (like an above poster mentioned) or are just generally more observant than average, these types of errors will come smack you in the face. And I don't think that 17% figure is right unless I'm missing something...

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend


movax posted:

Put simply, digital displays and videos have been hosed from their inception. Gamma only exists as a compensation factor for analog CRTs, specifically as a factor to compensate for the input-output characteristic of CRTs.

Hollywood decided on 24fps (23.976, it is 24fps colloquially), gently caress everyone.

TV decided on 30fps (29.976fps, 60 fields/second), gently caress everyone else.

Now you need a display that can display both of these framerates (and 25fps in PAL land). And also handle interlaced/progressive content. And do it all perfectly. Thus show up such evils as pulldowns (+ telecine), 120Hz and many other myriad technologies that claim to do their job. All consumers want is to be able to watch the latest lovely episode of Survivor and the latest shitpile of a rom-com on their TV they bought with their tax refund without any juttering or other issues.

e: I suppose that goal is achievable for most people, but if you're a video geek, work with video regularly (like an above poster mentioned) or are just generally more observant than average, these types of errors will come smack you in the face. And I don't think that 17% figure is right unless I'm missing something...

Yeah, I was thinking relative to the total frame rate, which was wrong. With professional monitors, you can get drift if you don't set the frame rate to match the monitor's capabilities, and also if you set your timeline settings different than that of the media. I see this issue often with our students.

The end user will probably never see a difference, but to the trained eye, you do notice these things.

madprocess
Sep 23, 2004

by Ozmaugh


movax posted:

Hollywood decided on 24fps (23.976, it is 24fps colloquially), gently caress everyone.

Film wasn't 23.976 originally, that's a slowdown equal to the one NTSC color broadcasting does that was instituted in some cases to make 3:2 pulldown actually 3:2.

Lediur
Jul 16, 2007
The alternative to anything is nothing.

I ordered an ASUS P8P67 Pro from Newegg on Sunday, but apparently they halted the shipment or something because of this design flaw. That's pretty nice of them.

Then again, it looks like the new designs won't be in the market until March.

E: Nevermind, it was just a UPS tracking bug.

Lediur fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Feb 1, 2011

strategery
Apr 21, 2004
I come to you baring a gift. Its in my diper and its not a toaster.

Well crap. I JUST built a psp67 i5 2500k setup this past week. I used newegg. Now Ill need to call I assume to figure out what to do. My stuff should still be under the Newegg Warranty, but since there is no resolution, Im not sure what they will do.

Malloc Voidstar
May 7, 2007

Fuck the cowboys. Unf. Fuck em hard.

Combat Pretzel posted:

All proper 24p content is actually 23.976fps.
Nope. 24FPS video is actually a Thing. I've seen a few Blurays with actual 24.000FPS content.
24p refers to both 23.976 and 24.000. (eac3to will state that 24.000FPS is "unusual", though)

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brainwrinkle
Oct 18, 2009

What's going on in here?


Buglord

Lediur posted:

I ordered an ASUS P8P67 Pro from Newegg on Sunday, but apparently they halted the shipment or something because of this design flaw. That's pretty nice of them.

Then again, it looks like the new designs won't be in the market until March.

I ordered an ASRock P67 on Sunday and it shipped. At least I get to use it until March, and the board has 4 SATA 6 Gbs ports.

I really hope the recall isn't handled poorly. It would be a huge pain to go through a normal RMA process in March. I think I would almost rather deal with four dead SATA 3 Gbs ports than tear my computer apart and wait 10 days for a replacement.

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