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Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

Huh, really? Surely it must play some part, like the resistance current sees when it flows to and during discharge?

Youíre always going to lose a certain amount of energy when charging a capacitor from a voltage source. The only question is the rate at which it happens.

With discharging itís even more obvious: all the energy stored in the capacitor must be dissipated as heat.

If you were charging a supercapacitor for an electric car or something, youíre feed it increasing voltages, and then resistance would matter. But you canít put a billion DCĖDC convertors in your CPU, or channels to shunt discharging gates to some external resistor network.

Platystemon fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Feb 22, 2017

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Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




Oh duh... I completely forgot about the whole 'resistance impedes current' thing somehow

Yeah I know that quite well, I do have an EE degree. I'm just not as well read on semiconductor physics and device physics as I want to be (plus it has been 3+ years since I took my device classes)

(but I have no idea what you're trying to compare or explain with the whole super capacitor thing...)

Yeah, the gates do have to discharge somewhere, that is true, but it's not like that energy can never goes through a transistor on its way to the ground.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009





Platystemon posted:

With discharging itís even more obvious: all the energy stored in the capacitor must be dissipated as heat.
Wait what?

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Josh Lyman posted:

Wait what?

You have a charged gate at V+. You discharge it by connecting it to GND.

You can have x ohms for y watts and z seconds or x⁄2 ohms for 2y watts and z⁄2 seconds. They both result in y ◊ z joules. The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.

There is research into charge recycling logic, but youíre not going to see them in your CPU any time soon.

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




Expanding on that, every time a digital signal is set to '1' (when 1 is vdd) the gate of the (nmos) transistor is charged up to the main voltage of the system it's in (5, 3.3, 1.8, 0.9, whatever V). Naturally, charging something up to a voltage(potential) above the relative ground level requires energy (think of it kinda like gravity), which it gets in the form of charge. If you remember your high school or college physics, every charged particle generates an electric field, and its this collective field from all the many charges (where each individual charge is +[electron charge] C) being held on the gate that's actually the 'switch' in the transistor when it pulls all of those lovely electrons in the bulk channel towards the gate, allowing current to flow.

Now, once the transistor needs to be a '0', the voltage is removed from the gate and remembering the gravity parallel, all of the charges now want to (and HAVE to) move to ground since the transistor now needs to turn off. This is when it dissipates as heat like platystemon says. as they moves through the various wires and resistances they have to lose all that energy that brought them up to the vdd level, now don't they? Its THIS that causes electronics to get hot.

VVVV Yeah, exactly this

Watermelon Daiquiri fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Feb 22, 2017

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Another way to look at it is that no matter what the resistance is, the same number of electrons have to make the trip.

Each electron is dropping from V+ to whatever voltage the capacitor is already at.

The voltage on the gate is itself a function of how many electrons are already present.

Resistance isnít a factor in the number of electrons or in the per‐electron energy transfer, so itís not a factor in the total energy dissipated as the gate is charged.

Platystemon fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Feb 22, 2017

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

http://hothardware.com/news/officia...nd-clock-speeds



Uh. Well. Assuming AMD isn't completely full on poo poo on their benchmarks, the new 1800X should be competitive-or-better-than the 6900X, and at a $500 (vs ~$1000) price point. Oh, and do it at 95W.

God drat it, AMD, you had better not be loving with me here.

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011








I'm still waiting to see how good of an overclocker the 1700 and 1700X are. If the 1700 can overclock past 4 GHz, then hoo boy, it's time for me to finally get off SB-E.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

That does seem to be an open question. Multi-threaded performance seems pretty hilariously strong for the given prices, but if single-thread performance is substantially below Intel's offerings, it would stunt adoption. Guess we'll see soon, though.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Single thread seems to be on par with the 6900k, maybe a bit better?

The 7700k will remain king of single thread by a decent margin, but if you multitask at all...

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


quote:

Oh, and do it at 95W.

I wonder what it's actually going to hit.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:

I wonder what it's actually going to hit.

I also wonder how much power the comparable Intel chips actually pull in realistic use-cases. It's easy to get them to max out their TDP in the tight-avx-loop-inferno workloads most reviewers use, but that's the CPU equivalent of only testing a GPU with FurMark.

Ihmemies
Oct 6, 2012



GRINDCORE MEGGIDO posted:

I wonder what it's actually going to hit.

From the amd thread:

Klyith posted:

AMD's TDP numbers are not the same as other TDP numbers -- when they say a part uses 95 watts, there's no max or maybe about it. That chip is eating those 95 watts and then licking the plate for leftover electrons.

eames
May 9, 2009



Ihmemies posted:

From the amd thread:

Their top stock cooler is also rated for 140W TDP and insiders have dropped info that the 1800X hits over 90įC around 4.0 Ghz on air so I'm expecting launch models >200W overclocked.
Chances are that this will improve as GloFo becomes more experienced with the chips/process, just like the RX480 went from >150W stock to <100W factory OC over the course of a few months.

Deuce
Jun 18, 2004
Mile High Club

Kazinsal posted:



I'm still waiting to see how good of an overclocker the 1700 and 1700X are. If the 1700 can overclock past 4 GHz, then hoo boy, it's time for me to finally get off SB-E.

The rumors point to the answer being almost definitely a no. Allegedly, there's very little OC room.

But the issues might be thermal rather than chip limits so maybe watercoolers will take off here.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Deuce posted:

The rumors point to the answer being almost definitely a no. Allegedly, there's very little OC room.

But the issues might be thermal rather than chip limits so maybe watercoolers will take off here.

In the end it may not matter.

I know taking single benchmarks as representative is a bad idea, but if we take the info from this 1700X preview, assuming that the 1700X was running it at 3.8Ghz, and assuming linear scaling for OCing, we get this:

5960X@3.5 -> 133
5960X@4.0 -> 152
1700X@3.8 -> 154
1700X@4.0 -> 162
6700k@4.2 -> 183
6700k@4.6 -> 200

So either way, the 1700X is still noticeably behind the 6700k in single-thread, and ahead to some extent of the 5960X. Considering the 1700X is supposed to be about the same price as the 6700k, but has twice the cores, 2.5x the cache, and utterly smashes it in multi-thread (again, assuming Chinebench is at least more or less representative), a 15%-30% trail in single-thread performance will still appeal to a lot of people. Obviously not everyone, but it'd sell.

Junior Jr.
Oct 4, 2014


Buglord

Just made a new Z270 rig with a Pentium G4560 and so far it's not bad for a budget Kaby Lake. One thing I'm super impressed with it is I can finally run DIshonored 2 with 2 CORES (plus hyper-threading), it was useless when I ran it with a G4400 so I think I might consider selling that at some point.

If anyone's running Skylake Core i3/i5/i7 on Z270 boards, how good or bad is the performance?

Also note to self, NEVER buy Gigabyte boards, they're just poo poo.

Captain Hair
Dec 31, 2007

Of course, that can backfire... some men like their bitches crazy.


Junior Jr. posted:

Just made a new Z270 rig with a Pentium G4560 and so far it's not bad for a budget Kaby Lake. One thing I'm super impressed with it is I can finally run DIshonored 2 with 2 CORES (plus hyper-threading), it was useless when I ran it with a G4400 so I think I might consider selling that at some point.

If anyone's running Skylake Core i3/i5/i7 on Z270 boards, how good or bad is the performance?

Also note to self, NEVER buy Gigabyte boards, they're just poo poo.

High five g4560 buddy!

I'm super impressed with this plucky little chip too I've been mostly playing gta and great. It really packs a punch I wish they'd released ht on the pentiums earlier.

I also went with a z270 with the idea of dropping in a 2nd hand K chip later on down the line. What ram speed did you go for? I went for 3000mhz but I've been unable to get more than 2666mhz out of it.

Junior Jr.
Oct 4, 2014


Buglord

Captain Hair posted:

High five g4560 buddy!

I'm super impressed with this plucky little chip too I've been mostly playing gta and great. It really packs a punch I wish they'd released ht on the pentiums earlier.

I also went with a z270 with the idea of dropping in a 2nd hand K chip later on down the line. What ram speed did you go for? I went for 3000mhz but I've been unable to get more than 2666mhz out of it.

I'm using 16GB DDR4 RAM (NB Freq 3207 MHz average, DRAM Freq 1070 MHz average). Haven't overclocked them, I think they're fine as is. If I make a high-end build, I'd consider checking out some OC RAM chips.

JnnyThndrs
May 29, 2001

HERE ARE THE FUCKING TOWELS

gently caress, I dunno, I've used Gigabyte midrange boards almost exclusively since the C2Quad 6600 days because I Hackintosh everything(just for the hell if it) and GB boards have always been the gold standard of simplicity for Hackintoshes. Never really had much of an issue with them, either with reliability or overclocking, although I only casually overclock.

For my couple of high-end rigs, it's always ASUS, though. I beat the hell out of them and they just keep hangin' in there.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



JnnyThndrs posted:

gently caress, I dunno, I've used Gigabyte midrange boards almost exclusively since the C2Quad 6600 days because I Hackintosh everything(just for the hell if it) and GB boards have always been the gold standard of simplicity for Hackintoshes. Never really had much of an issue with them, either with reliability or overclocking, although I only casually overclock.

For my couple of high-end rigs, it's always ASUS, though. I beat the hell out of them and they just keep hangin' in there.

Gigabyte has done some bait and switch with motherboard revisions:
https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/g...on-too-far.html

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I'm thinking my next motherboard will be an ASRock, they seem to have a good balance of features and price while being good quality too.

Now I just have to choose between AMD and Intel

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





Outside of super budget builds (like replacing a board/cpu in a eMachine or something..remember those?) I have always used either ASUS or ASRock. Other boards may offer more things, with Gigabyte throwing literally everything and the kitchen sink on their board sometimes, but.... Just hasn't appealed to me.


Now the problem I have is their Aorus X5 laptops freaking call to me by having almost all the right boxes checked, and having a 2 year warranty standard too....

Captain Hair
Dec 31, 2007

Of course, that can backfire... some men like their bitches crazy.


I used to use Abit back in the day when I had amd chips (still got one running an xp machine, must be going on 15 years now) then I got an Asus that I used for 10 years before selling to upgrade to kabylake. I had the choice of asus, msi, asrock and gigabyte.

The asrock was slightly more expensive, the msi had minor (now corrected I belive) bios problems and also red coloured mobo parts that I didn't really want and I didn't really fancy the gigabyte board as I've not really used them before and knew they had a somewhat spotty history at times.

So I went asus again and will likely be using it for 10 years like the last one assuming nothing goes wrong.

I'd have been happy with the as rock boards I've used for other people's machines, I'd certainly use them again. Iirc their low end stuff tends to be better than alot of other brands lower end stuff.

phosdex
Dec 16, 2005



Asrock is Asus now though aren't they? I think msi is the only major brand I've never used for a motherboard before. I've had various problems with everybody else at one point or the other.

The Electronaut
May 10, 2009


Nope.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


phosdex posted:

Asrock is Asus now though aren't they?

No, ASRock started off as a division of ASUS some time ago, then became their own entity.

PerrineClostermann
Dec 15, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


ASRock used to be the budget Asus boards right?

craig588
Nov 19, 2005

by Nyc_Tattoo


I got caught in the fake cache PC Chips and SIS board scam http://redhill.net.au/b/b-bad.html. Since then I've always been too scared of cheap motherboards to ever go cheap on them and I've never had a problem from any of Asuses high end to mid range boards. I'm at a point where I'm so familiar with Asus terminology and layout that I'll pay more for an Asus board just so I don't need to think about how settings are renamed or rearranged between manufacturers. An extra 30 dollars up front is worth it so I don't have a chance of making a mistake and wasting hours because I missed a setting.


Asrock spun out from Asus. They started out as a budget line but engineers couldn't leave things alone and eventually they were making competitive enthusiast boards.

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!


The only motherboard I had serious issues with was an Iwill board that was in the first PC I ever built, what an utter pile of poo poo.

phosdex
Dec 16, 2005



HalloKitty posted:

No, ASRock started off as a division of ASUS some time ago, then became their own entity.

Hm, am I thinking of Abit that Asus bought? And then killed off.

EdEddnEddy
Apr 5, 2012





ASRock are great for the more unique X79/X99/Xwhatever boards as usually you can save $100 from ASUS but have nearly all if not more features on their boards. Its pretty nuts what they put on some of their boards vs everyone else.

They had some crazy X79 boards but they did have the downside of only having 4 vs 8 ram slots which was a bummer. Their top of the line one with 8 though had everything and the kitchen sink. Even the disabled SAS/SATA slots that were disabled because of X79 issues on almost all other boards.

They may or may not work, but you have the chance to try with them.

I think Ivy Bride-E fixed that so maybe it would have been fine. Hmm.

I do know my X79 SB-E is a finicky goofy thing with USB slots. Sometimes they all work fine, other times they die and need a full shutdown and power pull from the board to come back. No idea why as it is so random. But as that is the only negative I have of my rig, I can live with it.

HalloKitty
Sep 30, 2005

Adjust the bass and let the Alpine blast


PerrineClostermann posted:

ASRock used to be the budget Asus boards right?

That's the way I remember it, at least

SCheeseman
Apr 23, 2003



I initially had 2 Gigabyte boards, both died and were always kinda unreliable. I replaced them with two mid-range ASRock boards and everything runs great. ASRock is good.

Junior Jr.
Oct 4, 2014


Buglord

SwissCM posted:

I initially had 2 Gigabyte boards, both died and were always kinda unreliable. I replaced them with two mid-range ASRock boards and everything runs great. ASRock is good.

Every time I tried making a rig with a Gigabyte board they refused to boot up. But when I moved to an ASUS board it worked just fine. I don't know whether I'm doing something wrong with Gigabyte or they just run like poo poo in general.

SlayVus
Jul 10, 2009


Grimey Drawer

For the first time in 15 years, Intel is doing a Spring Deal. Did Ryzen scare them that much? No clue what is going to be available yet.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull



drat it that will teach me to trust half remembered factoids cited by an industry leader in a talk

JnnyThndrs
May 29, 2001

HERE ARE THE FUCKING TOWELS

Rexxed posted:

Gigabyte has done some bait and switch with motherboard revisions:
https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/g...on-too-far.html

Oh that fuckin' sucks, although tbf, I wouldn't buy a 70$ B85 mobo to do serious poo poo on. But their whole 'endless revision' thing -is- really irritating, they've changed things in later revisions which require different kexts and I've dicked around for hours wondering why my stuff didn't work.

I think the gold standard for horrible boards has to be cheap Via-based motherboards from the Super 7 days, long-forgotten names like FIC, Shuttle and Soyo.

Iwill was bad too, but I have a soft spot for them because I bought a dual-Slot One 440BX board from them that lasted me like four years(which was an eternity back then), went from dual PII-400's all the way to overclocked PIII-850's. I still have that board, gonna make another retro gaming machine one of these days. Not that Win9x will notice that second processor though.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

SlayVus posted:

For the first time in 15 years, Intel is doing a Spring Deal. Did Ryzen scare them that much? No clue what is going to be available yet.

Prices are down everywhere.

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Junior Jr.
Oct 4, 2014


Buglord

SlayVus posted:

For the first time in 15 years, Intel is doing a Spring Deal. Did Ryzen scare them that much? No clue what is going to be available yet.

Please post links, I want to know how low their prices are.

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