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Kiri Kolisnik: Yeah I worried about that too, I figured I'd just come off as an annoying creep who didn't actually know anything about reactivity by standing there making her dog go nuts.  a life less: That's what I started doing near the end of our training session yesterday. Ignoring just made him sit there and look at me like, "Well what the gently caress do you want?" So I started going "Nope!" and made him reposition himself to get ready to try again, and he started doing better. I also find he responds WAY better to a point and snap than just pointing (I was teaching him 'go to bed').
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Aug 18, 2011 14:35
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I just wanted to tell you all that after a week and a half, my cat has mastered sit, and is working on come. My mom's gonna be so mad. 
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Aug 18, 2011 15:17
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Re: Bait bags -- http://www.jjdog.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=1CATBAITBAGS Cheap and not that uncool. We use one very similar to the first one and are super, super happy with it.
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Aug 18, 2011 16:40
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Rixatrix posted:Any tips on how to progress with Pi using Shirley's Retrieve? We're seriously stuck at the point where I'm catching the dumbell that he lifts/throws and I cannot for the life of me get Pi to offer any sort of hold. So he'll clasp the dumbbell and lift it a bit, but won't hold onto it for more than a split second? You can try throwing in a "stay" cue at an opportune time. I think that's how I ended up getting through that roadblock with Cohen last year. Not perfect, but it worked for us. It may only give you another half second of hold before he drops it, but if you're skilled you may be able to capitalize on it and stretch the hold longer and longer. I also started Cohen with taking the object from my hand as opposed to on the floor (it was before I'd read Shirley's Retrieve). I made a sort of take -> hold -> give chain with a ball. So what about other objects? I imagine he'll carry toys etc in his mouth. You could try to get the basics of the grab/lift/hold with a toy then see if you can apply it to a dumbbell. What material is your dumbbell? Is it sized correctly? Does it jostle Pi's teeth when he grabs it? Is it too heavy? Too light? Does Pi have any dental issues? Is it clean? It's possible that he dislikes something specific about this dumbbell. For keeping YOUR motivation up, I find that's what I need classes for. Otherwise I just tend to wander around aimlessly with my dog, getting frustrated when she decides to be a brat. I find a need those payoffs to make me feel like having a crazy energetic dog is worth it.
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Aug 18, 2011 23:12
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Susan Calvin posted:I just wanted to tell you all that after a week and a half, my cat has mastered sit, and is working on come. My mom's gonna be so mad. Good work, can't wait to hear how she explains that to Here's a picture of Milo, he's 6 months now. Everyday, I work with him on come, stay, retrieves and almost every morning I hide some old antlers around the yard for him to sniff out. Oh, and be nice to kitties.  I used these two videos when I was looking for a good way to clicker train retrieves. It's gone pretty well but I went too fast on the first step and I'm having problem getting him to drop stuff into my hand now so we're back to that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
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Aug 19, 2011 02:34
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Hey guys! I'd appreciate some advice on how to handle a minor issue. Well okay, it's a moderate issue. Our 1yr old pit-mix Brutus doesn't seem to know how to calm the gently caress down in the house. He's doing a lot better from being out of his crate more and more but boy is he annoying. When he's first taken out he'll be very good and play with his toys (marrow bones, a deer antler, a kong, a rubber tire) until he gets bored of them. Then he runs around and gets into things he shouldn't or bugs our senior APBT Keno. What should we do to teach him how to be calm? I'm thinking the obvious "teach him new tricks and brush up on his old ones" to occupy him more, and maybe some sort of impulse control games. Are there any specific 'calm the hell down' exercises I can do with him, too?
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Aug 19, 2011 04:50
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JAVA SPARROW posted:Hey guys! I'd appreciate some advice on how to handle a minor issue. How much exercise and mental stimulation is he getting? It doesn't sound like a situation where impulse control games will help rather than increasing his exercise.
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Aug 19, 2011 07:50
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a life less posted:So he'll clasp the dumbbell and lift it a bit, but won't hold onto it for more than a split second? a life less posted:What material is your dumbbell? a life less posted:For keeping YOUR motivation up, I find that's what I need classes for. Otherwise I just tend to wander around aimlessly with my dog, getting frustrated when she decides to be a brat. I find a need those payoffs to make me feel like having a crazy energetic dog is worth it. That said, yesterday in Agility class Rho did so well that I've decided to go to the trial tomorrow and give it a go. Yesterday's class was outside with lots of dogs waiting in the ring for their turn and Rho was still able to perform very well. He even did independent weaves at warp speed, which was amazing. If he can do half as well at the trial in spite of the distractions we should be golden.
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Aug 19, 2011 13:45
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Fraction posted:How much exercise and mental stimulation is he getting? It doesn't sound like a situation where impulse control games will help rather than increasing his exercise.  My mother takes him and senior dog for a 1hr walk + offleash run combo in the morning. He'll take a nap shortly after that and when he wakes up, I'll take him for another quick walk around the block. Then later in the afternoon I'll usually take him outside to chase his flirtpole & lounge around in the yard. Other than that he is either taking a nap or loose in the house.
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Aug 19, 2011 17:04
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JAVA SPARROW posted:An estimate would be about 1hr 30min daily of pure exercise. We thought that would be enough for him, should we try to ramp it up somehow? Upping exercise is always good if you can! I thought my ten month old JRT was getting enough exercise (an hour of outdoor fetch, plus around two-three hours of indoor play and around an hour and a half of mental stimulation) because she would just sleep the rest of the time. But I've lately increased her exercise to two hours minimum, usually more three hours, of pure running and playing fetch, and she settles more easily, hasn't had any accidents when left alone, startles less, and is less inclined to bully my older dog into playing. Pit bulls are pretty notorious for requiring quite a lot of exercise, from what I've heard. If you don't have time to add another offleash walk in, you could try: - Feeding him at mealtimes only for doing tricks, or giving him his meals from kongs and similar toys. - Turn the short walk around the block into a lap or two of jogging or full out running around the block. - Less lounging and more flirtpole, tug, etc, games in the evening.
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Aug 19, 2011 17:13
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a life less posted:
Day Four
Day Five
Will continue to add links when/if they're posted. Edited to add video descriptions written by Fenzi. Added video descriptions to the quoted text above too. a life less fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Aug 19, 2011 |
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Aug 19, 2011 18:51
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Awesome, thanks for those! In the end I decided to wait a few weeks to work on delivery to hand because Mouse wasn't really into the early clicker sessions we tried; at least not for something so complicated. I settled on getting her to touch first my hand and then the offered object with her nose, and making a huge fuss of her for that. I've spent the last couple of weeks working on building up other retrieve skills, and we're only now working on 'hold it'. I think the difference with training a lurcher up for rabbiting and training an obedience candidate to retrieve is that the object we want her to retrieve isn't 'dead' or static - it's alive and running, and the hound has to work very hard to catch it. Having caught it, for the hound to come back to you at all is quite a big feat, and something a lot of lurcher handlers struggle with. Worst case scenario is that the lurcher kills the rabbit then runs away from the handler to devour it. At that point the lurcher and handler are no longer working as a team; the harmony between the partners has broken down. On the other hand, here's an example of a whippet lurcher (also called Mouse  ) working beautifully with her handler ( if you don't want to watch rabbits being killed). The retrieve live to hand is an important part of the whole picture, but equally so IMO is her making the decision to return immediately to the handler's side once the high value item has been gathered up. You can see at 4:35 or so that the delivery isn't particularly polished - she backs away from the handler slightly and lowers the rabbit to the ground - but she's completely comfortable bringing the prized object close to him and allowing him to take it from her. That's mostly what I've been working on with Mouse so far, and I'm really pleased with how enthusiastic she is about retrieving even heavy, fur-clad objects to my feet. (Edit: she'll also retrieve the same items when she 'catches' them on the end of a lure pole )That said, I do think it's important to work on delivery while she's still young, and I've started working on 'Hold It' with Mouse (and Dandy!) in the last two days. I've done three short sessions with each of them, and they have both progressed from nose bumps to holding the item for 5-10 seconds (in the case of Mouse) and 3-5 seconds (in the case of Dandy). One issue I'm having with Mouse is she haaates sitting for any length of time, and usually drops to a down after a couple of moments. Therefore, her best 'hold its' take place when she's lying down (when she's standing up she tends to try and parade with the item, and when she's sitting she'll hold it while very carefully changing position into a down). I think her leg:body ration actually makes it uncomfortable for her to sit at the moment, so I think I'll try to move more towards shaping the behaviour while she's standing. notsoape fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Aug 19, 2011 |
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Aug 19, 2011 20:47
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Fraction posted:If you don't have time to add another offleash walk in, you could try: Thanks so much~ I'll begin giving him more walks around the block (I need them too, can't really jog right now... heh) and more flirtpole / tug games. His mental stimulation is admittedly 'nothing' now that I think of it, so I'll start working on some tricks with him using his kibble. I'll post about any progress he has.
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Aug 19, 2011 22:48
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Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats.
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Aug 19, 2011 23:35
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I've been reading this thread in advance of my plans to get a dog sometime relatively soon, but I wanted to thank the OP for their great rundown of training techniques and stuff. I have a really troublesome person at my work who constantly asks for things outside of proper channels and tends to get nasty and bitchy when things don't get done like she asked (because she didn't ask correctly, or asked in the middle of something else and confused the tech working on it,) so I've been reading up on Positive Reinforcement/Clicker training and, while I cannot use a clicker and bits of kibble, ignoring her until she requests things through proper channels and then responding enthusiastically and promptly to her needs, has been both effective and highly amusing for my IT staff, since I let them in on the source of my new "policy" of dealing with this person.
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Aug 19, 2011 23:53
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wtftastic posted:Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats. Does she like toys? You can use them as a reward as well
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Aug 19, 2011 23:53
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coyo7e posted:I've been reading this thread in advance of my plans to get a dog sometime relatively soon, but I wanted to thank the OP for their great rundown of training techniques and stuff. 
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Aug 20, 2011 00:38
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wtftastic posted:Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats. In addition to trying toys, how many different kinds of treats have you tried? I think people too often expect their dogs to love those gross dog 'cookies' that are supposed to pass as dog treats...I'm not sure why so many people expect their dogs to go wild for kibble and stale wheat biscuits. Don't give up on food until you've tried chicken, pizza, beef, liver, even the leftover bits from a yummy steak! I even bought my dog a bag of chicken nuggets once and cut them up into tiny pieces for her class and she loved them. As long as you don't overdo it and adjust her regular food on heavy training days, a little unhealthy, super yummy stuff can go a long way. Also, try feeding her meals in training sessions instead of in a bowl, if you aren't already.
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Aug 20, 2011 01:29
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wtftastic posted:Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats. On top of the other solutions I would focus a lot on life rewards. Dog wants up on the couch? Gotta sit first. Mealtime might mean a down-stay. Sniffing the fire hydrant is earned through another sit. Progress will be slower of course. You just have to try and find any and all things the dog likes and then channel them through training. coyo7e that's almost exactly what Pryor's Don't Shoot The Dog is all about : reinforcement in the real world. Doesn't matter if it's on a person, dolphin or dog. The effect is the same.
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Aug 20, 2011 01:44
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JAVA SPARROW posted:An estimate would be about 1hr 30min daily of pure exercise. We thought that would be enough for him, should we try to ramp it up somehow? Here's a sort of an instructional video on laying a track: http://youtu.be/0iyYjoVwnfQ Riiseli fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 20, 2011 |
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Aug 20, 2011 06:03
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wtftastic posted:Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats. Also, get a copy of Jane Killion's When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. It's excellent and it sounds like it's exactly what your mother needs.
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Aug 20, 2011 07:20
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I'd like some more info on the capturing training method, please! Sometimes Roger does a handstand while peeing. It's freaking bizarre quirk about him, I don't know if he thinks his feetsies are too dainty to touch piddle or what, but holy poo poo he can do handstands! He lifts his back legs completely off the ground, hovers for a second while peeing, then falls back down. It's not every time, relatively rare, really. Do you think he would be able to learn this though? I have some doubts because: a) he doesn't do it super often b) he may be too focused on his current task of peeing c) he's still early in the rest of his training, this is like high school level stuff for a 1st grader. d) ...what if he thinks he's supposed to pee while doing it, that isn't a cool trick at all oh god gross
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Aug 20, 2011 18:20
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drat Bananas posted:I'd like some more info on the capturing training method, please! Sometimes Roger does a handstand while peeing. It's freaking bizarre quirk about him, I don't know if he thinks his feetsies are too dainty to touch piddle or what, but holy poo poo he can do handstands! He lifts his back legs completely off the ground, hovers for a second while peeing, then falls back down. It's not every time, relatively rare, really. Do you think he would be able to learn this though? I have some doubts because: You'll never know exactly how he'll interpret your capturing (whether he'll be too concentrated on peeing or will think he needs to pee to begin with) until you try! If you mark and reward him with high value treats each and every time he does it, he should start doing it a lot more (peeing while doing a handstand gives me cheese, this is good ), and once he starts offering the behaviour more you'll be able to mould it into hand stand without peeing, in different contexts, etc.--- Lola's tug drive is coming along quite nicely, I think.  http://youtu.be/zkpnhH6jF-A Tomorrow I'm going to start adding distractions (mostly bringing my other dog to the field, on-leash and tied to the bench close by). Hopefully one day Lola can tug ferociously with strange dogs and people everywhere, and I can use it as a high value reward.
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Aug 20, 2011 18:29
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Rixatrix posted:Any tips on how to progress with Pi using Shirley's Retrieve? We're seriously stuck at the point where I'm catching the dumbell that he lifts/throws and I cannot for the life of me get Pi to offer any sort of hold. Both of my dogs hit this hurdle too. I'm approaching it differently with each dog. Keep in mind neither is overly familiar with the clicker (so don't know to offer behaviours or experiment with different interactions with the object). We're all novices, and learning as we go along (and open to critique!). Dan is a serious and slightly sensitive dog. You wouldn't know it watching him interact with other dogs or strangers (he's friendly, playful and patient) but with his own people he's pretty sensitive to disapproval. If you scold him for anything (not a regular 'hey, quit it' reprimand but a pointed finger 'now listen to me, young man' kind of scold) he stares at you in disbelief, his tail slowly falls, then he tucks it between his legs and begins to race around the house or garden zoomies style. He'll do a good few laps before he comes back to make up with you - he's done this since he was a puppy, I've never heard of it in another dog, it's kinda weird. The hold/retrieve clicker training has been interesting. He moved pretty quickly through the early stuff (touch it, lick it, mouth it a little, put your teeth around it while I hold it, hold it for a moment), but like Rixatrix we stalled when it came to 'hold it for longer than a moment'. When I reported the other night that he was holding 3-5 seconds, he was really just mouthing it a couple of times before spitting it out. Today he was just taking the item in his teeth, spitting it out instantly and looking for his treat. He would happily do that 50 times in a row (we didn't actually do it 50 times, but he had a 100% hit rate) but once you changed the goalposts so that spitting it out was a 'nope, try again' he got demoralised pretty quickly. And by 'demoralised' I mean 'gazing folornly into my eyes, whining and whimpering, trying to figure out why he's not a Good Boy anymore'  The way I've been approaching it is to set him up for success. He knows 'back-up' (walk backwards a couple steps) so I experimented with having him stand and take the item, then I would gently 'push' the item as I was holding it so that he would take a few steps back - then click, reward, make a huge fuss. He cottoned onto this reeeally quickly, and he was OVERJOYED that he had found a new Thing to make me Happy - taking an item from me, walking back a few steps, then dropping it. He wanted to do it over and over again, wagging his tail the whole time and lunging for the item like 'Yeah I got it!'. Approval for this dog is as important as treats, I need to make it super easy for him to succeed. Right at the end of the training session I lowered the item so that he had to lift it up before taking a few steps backwards. My plan is to sloooowly shape this so he lifts the item up from the ground, then backs into a sit and I take the item from him. We'll work on it until he will pick up a thrown object, come and sit holding it in front of me and then have me take it from him. That's my long term target: I'm not too fussed about sustained holds from him since this is all for fun and not formal in any way. If we get there, we get there but if not - no big deal  .Mouse is an assertive, confident puppy. She actually has a pretty good attention span for a pup, but she is not all that interested in treats unless they are super high value (which I save for puppy classes right now) and bores quickish when we work 1-on-1. What does motivate her, funnily enough, is competition. Since reading that dogs pay attention to other dogs around them during trick-and-treat sessions I've experimented having Dan and Mouse side by side for training. It doesn't do anything for Dan, so all the 'let's learn something new!' training sessions with him are 1-on-1 - but Mouse is currently waaaay more pumped to learn stuff if she has to compete for my attention with Dandy (who I'll just ask to do regular stuff that he knows by heart, like spin, speak etc). Like Dan, Mouse powered through the early stuff but hit a sticky spot when it came to lengthening the hold. She'll hold it a little longer than Dan, but inconsistently. Sometimes she'll hold for 5+ seconds, but it seems like she's always just waiting for the chance to spit it out - her emphasis is on the spit, I think because the treat (necessarily!) always comes right after. So, instead of working on a sustained hold at this point, I'm working on getting her to drop it into my *hand*, rather than on the floor. Instead of building up duration I'm trying to build up accuracy - she gets to do what she wants to do (spit out the thing and get a treat!), and from my point of view we're working on the thing that matters most to me (retrieval to hand). We made good progress today, she's much more amenable to 'Ah, try again!' than Dandy. And, like I say, working in 'competition' with Dan seems to motivate her to try harder for longer, although we do 1-on-1 sessions too .As with Dan I'm going to try to build on this behaviour, and what I'm aiming from her eventually is to lift an item from the floor and place it into my hand. We'll then build on distance and value of item. My time-frame for this is looong, potentially; I'm definitely keeping the following in mind. "As a general note, this dog's pace of learning is NOT normal. Because the dog/handler team has a ton of shaping history, the dog learns very very quickly. what matters is that she remains engaged and wants to learn. It is totally ok if it takes you six months to get your retrieve." Welp, those sure are some  about my dogs. In other news, Mouse saw sheep for the first time today and ignored them studiously. Good girl!Oh; one final note - finding the right size and shape of object to work with makes a huuuge difference. I've tried a few different things but a puppy rope toy, knotted at both ends, has worked best for us. notsoape fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Aug 20, 2011 |
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Aug 20, 2011 22:58
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So an update on the dog we just purchased last week (6 month old Cocker Spaniel/Poodle) : After only 5 days with us, Hurley is doing so well. So far, he will sit, stay, lay down, get in his crate, and fetch all on command. No accidents in the house, and he loves to cuddle and sleep the day away. We crate him in our room at night and he doesn't keep us up or anything, and I can pretty much leave him on his own while I do things around the house. We got SO lucky with him. There is one thing he doesn't do very well though, and that's go for walks. He will stay with us most of the time, but he is just LOVES to examine absolutely everything. We give him some time to do that, but we do try to keep him focused on staying by our side. Any tips/tricks for an overly curious dog? We are using one of those leashes that hook from the front. I want to make sure we teach him properly.
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Aug 20, 2011 23:18
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Rixatrix posted:Feed her ONLY as reinforcement for working for a couple of weeks. Don't let the dog go hungry for days on end, but a day or two won't hurt her if she's otherwise healthy and in good condition. Make her tasks so simple and the environment so peaceful that she'll get her share for the day, but she HAS to work for it. If she won't take the food to begin with, wait her out. All dogs have to eat to live, so food has inherent value for any living dog that's not terribly ill. Is the dog overweight at all? If so, increase exercise and get her to lose weight. If free feeding, stop right now. If she doesn't care for her kibble, feel free to switch to another brand or even raw if she prefers. I'm actually on my way back to my place after spending a week with my folks, so I'll try and bring it up with her. Maisie isn't overweight and is actually fairly skinny (even with her massive tibbie fur I can feel ribs fairly easily). She just doesn't eat a lot, and my mother has had her checked for medical issues to determine if there is an underlying issue with that. They feed her a balanced, home cooked diet that she likes. She hates kibble and will reluctantly eat wet food, but only the stinkiest, shittiest stuff. I've suggested using her favorite (as in, she'll pick it up and beg you to play for hours) toy, and I'll maybe link her to a book description. I get the feeling my mom feels like I am picking on her and her dog and I'd rather just gently suggest than badger her. After all, Maisie's issues are fairly minor, but her lack of training makes working or walking her a pain in my parent's rear end.
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Aug 20, 2011 23:39
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get out posted:So an update on the dog we just purchased last week (6 month old Cocker Spaniel/Poodle) : Glad to hear everything is going so well. Congrats! The issue is that your new pup sees more value in his environment than he sees with you. He's not been sufficiently rewarded for staying with you while on leash. Check out the 4th post of the OP where I link a few loose leash walking/heeling how-tos. Teaching a dog to walk with you is just about the toughest thing you'll ever teach them. It takes months to build really solid behaviour. So try a method and stick with it. I would also start working on a "go sniff" cue where you allow him to go sniff, meander and enjoy himself. That way you can have the on leash time be your time with a few breaks in between as rewards for good behaviour. (The technical term for that is Premack. Basically if the dog does his homework he gets rewarded. Ultimately the homework becomes the precursor to the reward, and therefore doing the homework enthusiastically is intrinsically reinforcing. Blahblahsciencetalk.)
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Aug 21, 2011 06:03
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I have a 2 year old yellow Lab, and he is a pretty great dog (well he doesnt poo poo in the house or maul my face if I take a toy off him!). Each weekend, we go to the park and he meets up with another dog, who is a lab/something cross (girl dog). We have been doing this for around a year now, as they get on so well. They pretty much zoom around for an hour, knocking each other over, and play fighting. The issue that has started happening recently, is that my dog has broken the skin on the girl dog's neck, when they are playing. She yelps, and he lets go, but then it's too late. She also bites his neck, almost hanging off him sometimes, but as he is a Lab, he seems to have some extra skin around there, almost like a neck beard (or as my other half liked to say, "he has too much face!"), so his doesnt seem to ever break. Once the skin is broken, the girl dog tends to scratch it and it gets infected. Now I, nor her owner, want to stop them playing, because once they see each other on a Saturday morning it's like some long-lost lovers reunion (minus the love, both have been neutered), and they play so well. On the other hand, there will be long-term issues if the skin is continually getting broken in the same place week after week. Things I have tried: 1) Keeping him on lead so i can pull him off if he does this. Problem is, the act has already happened when I realise its time to pull him off. 2) Spraying him with a water bottle. Again, it makes him stop, but only when the action has happened! Imagine you are trying to see what is going on in a whirlwind of dog parts, with them going head over heel, flopping on their backs, zooming around at like 100mph...its difficult to know when the neck is being "attacked". To give some background for my dog: He is as gentle as anything when taking food from your hand. When he plays with me, he has very good bite inhibition, and has never broken my skin, not even close. He is pretty obedient, stays next to me on walks (unless he sees another dog, in which case he greets them, tries to play, then comes back if they arent interested). He doesnt have any issues such as seperation anxiety, and is very very submissive towards humans and most other dogs. Help me out guys!
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Aug 21, 2011 10:31
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spud posted:
The issue is that your big durfy Lab is getting too excited and is no longer in control of his actions. The biggest key here is management, with training being secondary. The management is keeping both dogs under a certain arousal level. When they get too carried away injuries happen. If they're getting manic that is when you stop play, give them a rest, reward for calming down with some food, then allow them to reengage on a lower level. The training can take the form of creating a bomb-proof recall. If things are getting out of hand you can recall one (or both) of the dogs, and reward with treats like crazy for ceasing play and paying attention. This will allow you to manage their arousal levels more easily if you're not having to physically separate them. The tricky part is that your recall needs to be more reinforcing than the play, so at least for the first little while I'd break out the steak for a reward for speedy responses. If you're consistent in giving time outs when the dogs get too excited then they should (slowly) begin to figure out that play consists of lower-key interaction. The problem with the way you've been approaching this is that you've been reactive, not proactive. By that time the damage is done. It's easier to be reactive, but the key to good dog training and management is planning ahead. And remember that your management isn't punishment. Make it as enjoyable as playing with the other dog is. Play quick obedience games, etc. It's just allowing your dog to cool down a bit before someone gets hurt.
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Aug 21, 2011 15:48
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a life less posted:The issue is that your big durfy Lab is getting too excited and is no longer in control of his actions. The biggest key here is management, with training being secondary. Okey dokey, thanks for that! The little fecker is getting steak next weekend then :P And I will try to implement what you said.
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Aug 21, 2011 16:49
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spud posted:Okey dokey, thanks for that! The little fecker is getting steak next weekend then :P And I will try to implement what you said. If you don't already, you could try using a whistle to cut through the sound better than your voice. If you start whistle training whenever you're walking (so responding to the whistle = super awesome liver, or steak, or hot dog, or whatever), it might hit better when he's super amped up at the weekend. You don't want your voice to get lost in the din, which it might if he's playing fairly rowdily. E: VVV Put him on a leash, cue him to go to the toilet, and then ignore him until he does (no physical or verbal contact). You could walk him around a couple of times, but just make it clear that toilet breaks are not the time for playing. Fraction fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 17:26
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When we take Hurley out back to poop/pee, sometimes he will just run around like a 6 month old puppy. Imagine that! Is there anything I can teach him that will make him know it's time to go to the bathroom and not run around for 20 minutes?
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Aug 21, 2011 18:14
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More on the retrieve to hand. I've done a pretty exhaustive review of the videos of clicker-shaped retrieves online, and also read a few online walkthroughs. There are different ways to approach the behaviour chain. One approach, as demonstrated in the videos alifeless posted, is to concentrate initially on the hold. The shaping works towards rewarding the dog for gripping the object, and then the work is towards improving on the grip. The dogs gets clicks for a good grip, a longer grip, moving while gripping the object etc. Another example of this tack can be found here. Edit: once your dog has mastered gripping the object while you are also holding it, whether sitting or while moving, you'll then move onto independent pick ups/grips and delivery to hand. Note that Firez doesn't ask the border collie to lift the item without assistance until the end of the third video, but from that point on the emphasis is all about the dog independently lifting the item into the handler's hand. Another approach is to work from the drop to hand backwards. The dog initially gets clicks for dropping the object, spitting it out into your hand. A good write up is here (the formatting is wall-of-texty). You can see a video of a similar method here. Edit: the Schutzhund article recommends literally shoving the item into the dog's mouth right from the get-go - no gradual shaping of a hold. quote:Begin by ever so calmly and quietly and with as little ado as possible, slipping the dowel into the dog's mouth. This is NOT the important part, so don't make a big production out of it! DO NOT say "take it" or anything. Just slide it in there and I can almost guarantee you that he will instantly spew it back out at you. When he does this, click it, and give him a treat Just based on my own recent experience - and Rixatrix' post - if you have a remotely sensitive dog, I think it's better to shape a hold first (click for nose touch, licking, mouthing, gripping) than just shove the item in there. If you're lucky, the dog will get the idea that 'hey, mom/dad really wants me to hold onto this thing!'. You can then easily work on longer and longer sustained holds, recalls with the object and cued drops. However; if when you get to this stage your dog, like ours, is super eager to spit the item out the minute you take your hands away from it, you can choose from a couple of different paths to get over the hump. So, you have a dog who will take an object in his mouth and then immediately spit it out. You want to build up to a good retrieve to hand. If you want to follow Approach One (focusing on the hold) I think it's best to go back a step and keep a hold of the object yourself - with two hands at first - while it is in the dog's mouth. Work on sustained holds - first hold the object in place and reward for several seconds of mouthing, then shape towards a good behind-the-canine grip (again while you are holding the object). Build up towards encouraging the dog to move towards you while you are both holding the object. Do not take your hands off the object again until the dog is capable of sustained stationary and moving holds while you are also holding the object (obviously this may take several sessions). Edit: Your next step will be to gradually phase your hands away during the holds, and focus on delivery to hand as demonstrated in the Firez videos. This is the approach I'm now using with Dan. If you want to follow Approach Two (focusing on the delivery), change the way you offer the object to the dog. Put the object on the flat of your hand, like you're offering food to a horse, and wait for the dog to pick the item up and drop it back into your hand. Reward. Do this over and over and over, and always click after the item is back in your hand. I would keep this up for a few sessions before moving onto the next stage - moving your hand position so that the dog has to move their head and, eventually, their whole body to deliver the item correctly. This is the approach I'm now using with Mouse. Edit: To sum up very generally - if your dog is picking up an object only to immediately spit it back out, you need to consider whether you want to; i. Click before the spit-out, rewarding your dog for sustained stationary and moving assisted holds (and not asking for independent holds and hand delivery until your dog has these nailed.) ii. Click after the spit-out, rewarding your dog for delivering the item correctly no matter how short the hold. IMO Approach One sets the dog up for success better, since you retain a lot of the control over the object in the early stages. Approach Two requires more thought and trial/error from the dog to advance through the stages, but the emphasis is on delivery to hand and IMO would be the best foundation for a formal or gundog style retrieve. The path you choose should depend on the character of your dog and your reasons for teaching the retrieve. On a related note, the client in alifeless' videos is SO LUCKY to have a pro who will work one-on-one with her like that. Clicker training to shape complex behaviour chains is kind of daunting as a novice - you're always second guessing yourself, wondering if you're moving too fast or too slow - and when you hit a hurdle it can be tricky to know the best route to take to move beyond it. The trainer is shaping the handler as much as the handler is shaping the dog, and that's awesome. Is it common for dog trainers in the US to offer one-one-one clicker instruction? No-one in my area advertises that they do it, although there are a few clicker classes offered (for dogs over 6 months, which wouldn't help Mouse right now). notsoape fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 22, 2011 |
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Aug 22, 2011 00:41
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That's a good overview notsoape, thanks for that! One on one training sessions are fairly common, at least in my area. There are usually training clubs that do group classes but individual trainers within the club are usually available for individual hourly sessions. Right now I'm working on shaping Major to bring things towards me instead of wandering off with them. He's gotten to the point where he's happy to hold and carry things but he then steals them to go chew. I know back-chaining gives a more solid retrieve but I think we need to work on this part first. The criteria right now is just picking up the bumper and facing me, in a couple of sessions I'm going to limit it to picking up the bumper and moving one foot towards me. I got Maj's lab results back and it looks like he has low-normal thyroid values (bottom 30% T4, weirdly low TSH). His regular vet said it was all fine but I'm waiting to hear from the behaviorist before I write it off as normal. It seems everything I read says either having no t4 at all is completely benign or even slightly low values will make your dog crazy and its probably due to vaccines  Ugh. This is why I pay his shrink the big bucks to explain these things to me and give me the research to back her decisions up.
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Aug 22, 2011 03:58
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notsoape posted:More on the retrieve to hand. Thanks for this! I'm going to try approach 1 with Psyche as she tends to fling the toy to the side when she takes it from me and asking her drop it back into my hand would probably be a frustrating exercise. My trainer offers one-on-one sessions...at $80/hour. I don't know if that's a normal rate, but it's not something we can afford even for reactive training, much less justify for fun shaping lessons.
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Aug 22, 2011 13:30
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wtftastic posted:Any advice working with a dog who isn't food motivated at all? My mother's Tibetan terrier is so uninterested in food that the trainer that my mother worked with told her she was not going to be able to clicker train her. I've tried everything from praising and petting her like crazy to different treats. You already got a lot of answers, but I would recommend that you check out the Whole Dog Journal. A year long subscription is dirt cheap, like $12 bucks or something, and the content is, by and large, excellent. You also get access to all past issues online. That's good because last month's issue (July) had like a three page article dedicated to other forms of rewards for training that were not food. getout posted:When we take Hurley out back to poop/pee, sometimes he will just run around like a 6 month old puppy. Imagine that! Is there anything I can teach him that will make him know it's time to go to the bathroom and not run around for 20 minutes? I had a really long post on house training that has apparently been buried in archives, and I don't have access to go get it, but I think I address that in here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3409623 Basically once you've got a cue for "I need to go outside" and an elimination cue, you go out, do your routine, give the elimination cue and wait for some small period of time. If the dog doesn't eliminate, it's back inside. Rinse and repeat as necessary. This will take a long time to really work, but it DOES work. I do this with our golden in our apartment. It's important to be consistent about how you cue your impatience. I always tell her I'm going to count to 10 and then we're going inside. I slowly count to 10 and if I get there and she's not mid squat, we go inside and she doesn't get another chance for at least 15 minutes. Now if she doesn't go right away, she always goes at count 7 or 8.
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Aug 22, 2011 14:11
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I have archives, this is your post from that thread:MrFurious posted:No one has really answered your question with any depth, so I expect you to ignore all of their posts, which is unfortunate. They also could have been a little more grown up about it too. Thank you for using Gar's archive retrieval service.
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Aug 22, 2011 14:56
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notsoape posted:More on the retrieve to hand. Great post. I'm gonna link it in the OP with another retrieve post. Hope you don't mind! I like how you've broken down the options, though I don't think the two methods are as distinct as you suggest. With Shirley's Retrieve you start with your first method to create a dog who is willing to put an object in their mouth. Then once you've achieved that you shift to your second method where it's the "to hand" portion that is focused on and rewarded. Obviously you can't work option B if you don't have a dog willing to hold an object to begin with. The beautiful thing about dog training is that there is no One Right Answer That Works For All Dogs -- I like how you've acknowledged as much and are working towards each of your dogs' strengths. As for getting one-on-one instruction, yeah that's going to be pretty pricey. A lot of trainers don't focus much on it since it's not as lucrative for them. What I see a lot of people do is attend a lot of seminars where they can bring their dog along. I think it's pretty normal to have spots for roughly ten dogs + handlers, plus spots available for people to audit the seminar. I know Fenzi recently did a seminar like that, and there's another seminar that I'm eyeballing about Conditioning The Canine Athlete where I could bring Cohen to have her gait etc analyzed. It's not one on one, but I think these sessions are extremely informative and helpful. (Odds are I won't go, since it's $$$ I don't have.) Lots of awesome trainers will tour and do seminars like this -- I think some even make it across the pond.
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Aug 22, 2011 14:59
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wraithgar posted:I have archives, this is your post from that thread: EDIT: Found it. Here it is, just for the sake of posterity. Or posteriors. Some of this may not make sense out of context. quote:Here's the plan: MrFurious fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Aug 22, 2011 |
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Aug 22, 2011 16:30
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a life less posted:I like how you've broken down the options, though I don't think the two methods are as distinct as you suggest. With Shirley's Retrieve you start with your first method to create a dog who is willing to put an object in their mouth. Then once you've achieved that you shift to your second method where it's the "to hand" portion that is focused on and rewarded. Oh, totally - I've gone back and made a few edits to clarify some points (I think I got a bit confused as to where I was talking about the retrieve in general terms, and where I was talking about solutions to the specific hump that Rixatrix and I both encountered) quote:Obviously you can't work option B if you don't have a dog willing to hold an object to begin with. The article I linked to for option B actually recommends just plain shoving the item into the dog's mouth (and then rewarding them for spitting it out) from the get-go, but I don't think I'd advocate that for most dogs. Have edited along those lines too .Mouse is now lifting the item from the floor and dropping it into my hand for her click. We're not ready to play around with different positions of item or hand yet, but that will come. I'm giving Dandy some time off from retrieve shaping, but when we pick it back up we'll be working on assisted holds (stationary and moving)
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Aug 22, 2011 16:32
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