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Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



chaels biggest weakness has always been his mental game.

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Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Marching Powder posted:

additionally, he had extremely good takedown defense.

the writing was on the wall in the eddie wineland fight. eddie took him to school in the first, but everyone except for manyak just forgot about it when renan landed that cool spinning back kick in the second.

true his tdd was great but it was partially because he was both tall and gigantic because of his amazing weight cutting

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

kimbo305 posted:

He's fast, hits hard even at 155, and has chin to make up for his undeveloped defense.

yeah hes one of the top handful hardest hitters ever at 145 with only bart palaszewski and jeremy stephens coming to mind for me as really being in his league, plus he has a chin that can take blasts from midget wrestlers with crazy overhand rights like mendes , also he has the biggest reach advantage except for jon jones right?

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Tezcatlipoca posted:

He did and he failed the gently caress out of that drug test anyway.

Oh lol, I forgot he popped after that.

Wild Horses
Oct 31, 2012

There's really no meaning in making beetles fight.


kimbo305 posted:

He's fast, hits hard even at 155, and has chin to make up for his undeveloped defense.

He got rocked by diaz, and i would argue hes more precision/skill than brute force

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

kimbo305 posted:

Most elite fighters are attribute fighters. Who're the physically least gifted fighters in this era who get by on wiles and technique? For a long time, I woulda said Joe Lauzon. Mike Pyle?

I don't know if she's still fighting but Bethe Correia came into MMA three apples tall with a background in accounting

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Wild Horses posted:

He got rocked by diaz

So has pretty much every fighter that a Diaz can land on.

vainman posted:

Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division

He has a KO reel.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


Wild Horses posted:

See: nutso weight cut
Hes a lot less impressive at lightweight.

He's had one fight at lightweight, against the champion, and it was a blowout win and probably the best performance of his career.

Triticum Guzzler
Jun 16, 2002


Josh Barnett was big, but was never the kind of overwhelming physical presence like a Schilt or Lesnar. He had a good chin, but it never carried him through a fight like Hunt or Nogueira. He was physically pretty strong and took plenty of steroids, but wasn't really exceptional except for the amount of drug tests he failed. Mostly he lived or died on whether he was a better grappler than his opponent, and he had a real focus on learning unusual techniques which took him to some strange places, like when he got obsessed with savate for a while and his only benefit from it was accidentally booting Mighty Mo in the balls French style.

Mir is kind of in the same boat, except that he did go through that period where he was horsed out of his mind, and he's much worse at taking a shot. And I guess he had a lot more explosive speed than most big white guys.

Shirkelton
Apr 6, 2009

I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.


Triticum Guzzler posted:

Josh Barnett was big, but was never the kind of overwhelming physical presence like a Schilt or Lesnar. He had a good chin, but it never carried him through a fight like Hunt or Nogueira. He was physically pretty strong and took plenty of steroids, but wasn't really exceptional except for the amount of drug tests he failed. Mostly he lived or died on whether he was a better grappler than his opponent, and he had a real focus on learning unusual techniques which took him to some strange places, like when he got obsessed with savate for a while and his only benefit from it was accidentally booting Mighty Mo in the balls French style

This is a good pick, but also leads me to another, maybe; Ben Rothwell.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Dan Didio posted:

This is a good pick, but also leads me to another, maybe; Ben Rothwell.

His midichlorians are off the chart, though

Foul Fowl
Sep 12, 2008

Like a snail that melteth away into slime, they shall be taken away; like a dead-born child, they shall not see the sun.

vainman posted:

Hendricks never seemed to be particularly gifted and he was champ of the toughest division

hendricks had ko power and speed for days. when he was good he was really dangerous.

GTO
Sep 16, 2003



Foul Fowl posted:

hendricks had ko power and speed for days. when he was good he was really dangerous.

Hendricks being bad coincided exactly with the introduction of USADA testing

cisneros
Apr 18, 2006


GTO posted:

Hendricks being bad coincided exactly with the introduction of USADA testing

Nah it was when he left team takedown.

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.


What is an 'attribute fighter'?

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Neon Belly posted:

What is an 'attribute fighter'?

A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Tezcatlipoca posted:

A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.
Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture".

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.


Grifter posted:

"Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture".

You're starting to sound like Joe Rogan now

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Grifter posted:

Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture".

The difference is that an attribute fighter builds the style and success around that specific physical attribute. Jon Fitch and Rick Story are extreme examples of fighters who don't have many noteworthy attributes. Even Robbie Lawler and Rory MacDonald don't have any physical characteristic that seems intrinsic to how they approach fighting.

Lesnar's entire style, however, was built around maximizing the effects of his size and power advantage over his opponents. Roy Nelson's was about finding ways to apply his punching power. Neither of them had any other path to victory when that was denied.

You're right in that it's not a binary thing. Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


CommonShore posted:

Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter.

my guy, have you seen the heavyweight division?

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


Tezcatlipoca posted:

A fighter who relies heavily on their attributes to win. Renan Barao and Brock Lesnar are attribute fighters. Cody McKenzie is the opposite of an attribute fighter.

Cody McKenzie absolutely relies heavily on his freaky long arms to guillotine dudes.

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


Grifter posted:

Isn't this basically every fighter who is good though? Anderson used a great chin, insane reflexes and his long body type to great effect. He also happened to have amazing pinpoint striking and good jiu jitsu but it's hard to deny that his physical gifts enabled his style. Mighty Mouse has a great well rounded skill set but it wouldn't work if he wasn't also quick as hell and generally athletic. This mostly sounds like a way of putting down fighters that people don't like. "Oh yeah, Jon Jones won a lot but he just did it with his attributes unlike the hard working Randy Couture".

even if it was true the fighters who have the best bodies are the hardest workers anyway. like yoel romero and souza etc.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


1st AD posted:

Cody McKenzie absolutely relies heavily on his freaky long arms to guillotine dudes.

This is a spectrum. Every dude around UFC level is going to have some type of athletic and skill advantage over average people. But McKenzie compared to the top 25 of whichever division he is giving blood for this time is at an extreme athletic disadvantage. Prime example is Mendes blasting a hole through his guts.

Tezcatlipoca fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jan 26, 2018

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


Tezcatlipoca posted:

This is a spectrum. Every dude around UFC level is going to have some type of athletic and skill advantage over average people. But McKenzie compared to the top 25 of whichever division he is giving blood for this time is at an extreme athletic disadvantage. Prime example is Mendes blasting a hole through his guts.

what's up with your custom title

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


1st AD posted:

what's up with your custom title

The same stalker who has been giving lowtax money for years because she got rejected by some guy I've had no contact with for a decade.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



LobsterMobster posted:

my guy, have you seen the heavyweight division?

They're not pro fighters. They're supperweight punchmen.

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Neon Belly posted:

You're starting to sound like Joe Rogan now
Or like baseball announcers. I don't remember the details but I believe someone in SAS once did a really interesting study where they demonstrated that baseball announcers are far more likely to describe black or latino players as "talented" or "athletic" while describing white players as "hard working" or "scrappy".

CommonShore posted:

The difference is that an attribute fighter builds the style and success around that specific physical attribute. Jon Fitch and Rick Story are extreme examples of fighters who don't have many noteworthy attributes. Even Robbie Lawler and Rory MacDonald don't have any physical characteristic that seems intrinsic to how they approach fighting.

Lesnar's entire style, however, was built around maximizing the effects of his size and power advantage over his opponents. Roy Nelson's was about finding ways to apply his punching power. Neither of them had any other path to victory when that was denied.
This is a nitpick but Lesnar is also very quick for a man of his size. I feel that you're mixing things up here. Is "punching power" a physical attribute? What about Brock's wrestling? He's certainly very large, strong and fast but he's also very good at the double leg. It sounds like what you are describing (at least in these two examples) is less to do with physical attributes and more to do with them only having one gameplan, or only one set of skills around which they can build a gameplan.

quote:

You're right in that it's not a binary thing. Fighters can be more or less dependent on their attributes, but "in good shape" isn't a noteworthy attribute for a pro fighter.
I agree with this.

I.N.R.I posted:

even if it was true the fighters who have the best bodies are the hardest workers anyway. like yoel romero and souza etc.
I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag.

vainman
Nov 2, 2012

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

Punching power is werid because some people are absolutely born with it. Obviously you can train to be better but it seems to vary wildly

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Grifter posted:

I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag.

Totally agree. There's probably dudes out there that do BJJ as often or more than Maia, but they're lacking something to be as successful as he is

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Grifter posted:

Less to do with physical attributes and more to do with them only having one gameplan, or only one set of skills around which they can build a gameplan.

It's almost like their game plan relies on those physical gifts, hmm.

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

vainman posted:

Punching power is werid because some people are absolutely born with it. Obviously you can train to be better but it seems to vary wildly

it can be attributed to so many things.... like a lot of wrestlers with a great shot collect many KOs with overhand rights and be considered a serious KO artist and power puncher

then theres guys like chuck and JDS who are KO artists and do it with multiple limbs but you can't separate their power and timing because we've all seen how their shots hit pinpoint accurate when they get KOs a lot of times

i dunno which group has more raw power cuz its all kinda from technique

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Neon Belly posted:

What is an 'attribute fighter'?

it means their elite skills are their physical gifts

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Bundt Cake posted:

it can be attributed to so many things.... like a lot of wrestlers with a great shot collect many KOs with overhand rights and be considered a serious KO artist and power puncher

then theres guys like chuck and JDS who are KO artists and do it with multiple limbs but you can't separate their power and timing because we've all seen how their shots hit pinpoint accurate when they get KOs a lot of times

i dunno which group has more raw power cuz its all kinda from technique

I loved the stories of Chuck Liddell hitting people so hard they'd see white and think they got eye poked.

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Grifter posted:

I think that once you reach really elite levels of athletic competition you have to have some combination of hard working, physical gifts, skills, attitude and some other advantages to really get there. I think it devalues fighters to shrink them down to just being one particular physical attribute. Jon Jones has a huge wingspan and that enables him to do crazy things like use elbows as punches but he still wouldn't be able to do that without building up skills with those elbows. People like the Diazes have great attributes in their awesome cardio but that wouldn't mean much without those hours of hitting the bag.

tim sylvia used his massive reach advantage to stay on the outside against even completely overmatched fighters and it was lovely and awful for a guy being tall to be the most important thing in mma. Jon Jones used steroids. Err I mean Jon Jones used his reach advantage to do a crazy back elbow in his loss to Bonnar, the GnP elbow on shogun from 10,000 miles away, and break Glovers arm with a move I've never seen before. to me thats kinda the point of the phrase attribute fighter. not that every fighter with great attributes is poo poo but that some guys would be completely hosed if they didn't have some insane gift

If Barao's recovery and chin weren't amazing combined with fantastic cardio and power, he'd have been poo poo

I.N.R.I
May 26, 2011


Bundt Cake posted:

If Barao's recovery and chin weren't amazing combined with fantastic cardio and power, he'd have been poo poo

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011


Barao was/is good even if manyak didnt like that he had good cardio or whatever

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011


If he was shorter, weaker, slower, had less energy, and didnt land as many strikes he wouldnt even be good.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


david carmichael posted:

shorter, weaker, slower

Please don't doxx me.

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Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

david carmichael posted:

If he was shorter, weaker, slower, had less energy, and didnt land as many strikes he wouldnt even be good.

its more like if he couldnt withstand huge shots and recover from getting nearly KOd so much he wouldnt have been at the top, since it happened so often.

Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jan 27, 2018

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