Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Steve Winwood
Sep 22, 2009

by Ozmaugh


2 fat 4 my lambo posted:

i'd like a thread where the only posts allowed are fatherdog quotes

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...80&userid=74932

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.







http://forums.somethingawful.com/se...questid=4765312

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This post brought to you by RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS.
RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS - It's for your phoneTM #ad



I remember seeing an MMA fight clip between an American and a Japanese and at the beginning they locked up and just traded punches right in the face. THere was no blocking or dodging, just two dudes face to face slugging it out for like 15 seconds while the crowd went crazy.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about and the fighters?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


oldpainless posted:

I remember seeing an MMA fight clip between an American and a Japanese and at the beginning they locked up and just traded punches right in the face. THere was no blocking or dodging, just two dudes face to face slugging it out for like 15 seconds while the crowd went crazy.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about and the fighters?

Frye vs Takayama, PRIDE 21.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5...dsofmma-b_sport

Takayama is a pro wrestler, Don Frye is an early legend of MMA turned pro wrestler.

Steve Winwood
Sep 22, 2009

by Ozmaugh


oldpainless posted:

I remember seeing an MMA fight clip between an American and a Japanese and at the beginning they locked up and just traded punches right in the face. THere was no blocking or dodging, just two dudes face to face slugging it out for like 15 seconds while the crowd went crazy.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about and the fighters?

Don Frye / Yoshihiro Takayama

ForbiddenWonder
Feb 15, 2003



the best part was when he was interviewed as part of that first 10 years of pride documentary. he basically said 'wow, that was an ugly face that boy had after that fight. I didn't want that face'. I wish I could find a clip of it, the way he says it is amazing

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 6, 2010

by R. Guyovich


MassRayPer posted:

Frye vs Takayama, PRIDE 21.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5...dsofmma-b_sport

Takayama is a pro wrestler, Don Frye is an early legend of MMA turned pro wrestler.

Um, wow. That's too absurd for fiction.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




It was a lot longer than 15 seconds, too. They did it more than once!

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Jack of Hearts posted:

Um, wow. That's too absurd for fiction.

That is truer than you know. They had to recreate that fight for a movie and just couldn't.

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009

This post brought to you by RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS.
RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS - It's for your phoneTM #ad



Thanks for all the replies. That fight is sick.

Foul Fowl
Sep 12, 2008

Like a snail that melteth away into slime, they shall be taken away; like a dead-born child, they shall not see the sun.

ForbiddenWonder posted:

the best part was when he was interviewed as part of that first 10 years of pride documentary. he basically said 'wow, that was an ugly face that boy had after that fight. I didn't want that face'. I wish I could find a clip of it, the way he says it is amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg4spi1Gwjs#t=455s

everyone should watch this documentary

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all


Don Frye sounds like he gargles with rusty nails.

ForbiddenWonder
Feb 15, 2003



awesome, definitely watching that right now.

Five Cent Deposit
Jun 5, 2005

Sestero did not write The Disaster Artist, it's not true! It's bullshit! He did not write it!
*throws water bottle*
He did nahhhhht.

Oh hi, Greg.

What's the deal with the "undisclosed" (locker room) bonuses? I can't be the only casual fan who is appalled to see guys getting paid 5 or 10 grand to fight at an event that nets tens of millions, particularly in light of the fact that there aren't main eventers soaking up 90% of the revenue. What I mean is, back in the day when two heavyweight boxers would meet and both get 10-20 million a piece, there'd still be money left over to pay the undercarders a decent wage, right? So if the main eventers in the UFC are getting 200-500 grand maybe, and the company is hauling in 20 million or more, can't they just set a more reasonable minimum of say 30 grand for the entry level? I know that the sport is relatively safe under the unified rules, but anything can happen. Fighters aren't the smartest dudes, so the argument of "they know what they are signing up for" doesn't sway me from feeling sick about some guy getting crippled for a couple thousand. I know that any "minimum wage" would ultimately be an arbitrary number - so the point isn't to talk about what it *should* be. But the smarks/pro-posters ALL seem to know that basically everyone in the UFC makes more than the advertised contractual amount and I'd like their perspectives on why the UFC isn't advertising that fact by just raising the contractual amounts? I feel like it hurts the development of the sport. The UFC can clearly afford to pay fighters more, and they clearly (to some of you) do, what's the point of the secrecy?

henkman
Oct 8, 2008


Taxes.

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh


Five Cent Deposit posted:

What I mean is, back in the day when two heavyweight boxers would meet and both get 10-20 million a piece, there'd still be money left over to pay the undercarders a decent wage, right?

what in the world makes you think that

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Pro tip - UFC undercarders get paid more than boxing undercarders.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Five Cent Deposit posted:

What I mean is, back in the day when two heavyweight boxers would meet and both get 10-20 million a piece, there'd still be money left over to pay the undercarders a decent wage, right?
Back in the day, when industrialists had legal monopolies and paid no income tax, there was still enough money left over to make all their factory workers rich, right?

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

I'm too dumb to get probated


they could have, but a lot of the workers were children and kids have gently caress all an idea what to do with money and would've wasted it all on pinwheels and rock candy or whatever so it's best the owners kept hold of it for safe keeping.

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


Those little bastards got a whole apple for for their birthday, what more could they want?

Five Cent Deposit
Jun 5, 2005

Sestero did not write The Disaster Artist, it's not true! It's bullshit! He did not write it!
*throws water bottle*
He did nahhhhht.

Oh hi, Greg.

Gomi Pile posted:

what in the world makes you think that

Eh, I dunno. I used to work with a pro boxer who fought on some decent sized undercards, and based on what he told me and what I've read, I guess I thought journeymen - even guys that no fan in the world has heard of or cares about - typically did better than $5,000-$10,000 to show up. What seems different is that the UFC is, in my mind, a brand more than a string of events. The "brand" seems to invest in the personalities and characters on its roster, and in that sense seems to be run more like a "sports-entertainment" company (e.g. WWE.) Boxing is a notoriously disgusting business and as an admittedly very casual fan (not interested at all these last few years) it never seemed to me like the promoters or the exhibitors cared whether YOU cared who was fighting besides the main eventers - the entire event was based on one hyped fight that everyone cares about and a bunch of filler fights that no one has anything invested in. Undercard fights seem meant to be exciting, but not in a way where you're seeing the next rising star. Boxing is all about jobbers and journeymen and everyone's records are incredibly padded. In contrast, the UFC brand seems like it is more about building and maintaining interest in each individual fighter and it just doesn't seem like they are rewarded commensurately to me. The UFC seems to have a higher number of competitive fights where one dude makes 10 times as much as the other dude, i.e. a legitimate challenger (as opposed to a jobber) making $20,000 vs. the champ making $200,000. But again, my question isn't "why aren't they paid more?" it's "why are we told they are making less than they actually make?"

I know MMA in general and UFC specifically are sometimes shady (duh) but I hope they aren't as shady as the various boxing promoters out there... I just want to hear the thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the locker room bonuses. Especially since they aren't such closely guarded secrets.

Related: Do the fighters see a decent cut of the other revenue streams (e.g. action figures, games, etc.)?

Five Cent Deposit fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 13, 2011

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


If fighters don't know exactly what their peers are making it makes it much harder to negotiate. If you don't know what someone of comparable value to the company is making, how do you know how to maximize your deal?

Five Cent Deposit
Jun 5, 2005

Sestero did not write The Disaster Artist, it's not true! It's bullshit! He did not write it!
*throws water bottle*
He did nahhhhht.

Oh hi, Greg.

MassRayPer posted:

If fighters don't know exactly what their peers are making it makes it much harder to negotiate. If you don't know what someone of comparable value to the company is making, how do you know how to maximize your deal?

Sounds pretty loving sleazy, if that's ultimately the reason.

Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

WINNINGEST BEVO


It's probably about keeping it discretionary so the UFC can choose who they want to reward and how much. It's totally shady, but the UFC doesn't want to be obligated to pay more than a token amount if the fighter puts on a boring fight or otherwise embarrasses the promotion. Everyone expects some bonus if all goes as expected, it can be bumped up or reduced depending on how the fights went down and how much money was made.

oldfan
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


UFC doesn't release salary information, the commissions do. So the answer is that commissions only require contract salaries and not bonuses. UFC chooses to release the competitive bonuses, presumably as a public incentive for guys to finish/have great fights.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Five Cent Deposit posted:

I guess I thought journeymen - even guys that no fan in the world has heard of or cares about - typically did better than $5,000-$10,000 to show up.


quote:

So I called the Nevada Athletic Commission and got the payment verification sheets for the last two major boxing shows (Bernard Hopkins-Joe Calzaghe on April 19 and Manny Pacquiao-Juan Manuel Marquez on March 15) as well as for the last major UFC show in the state, UFC 81 on Feb. 2.

According to state records, Hopkins and Calzaghe were each paid $3 million for their work. The next highest-paid fighter on that card was Audley Harrison, who made $20,000. There were nine fighters who made $5,000 or less, including two men, Marcos Mendias and Jermell Charlo, who made but $1,500.

Pacquiao made $3 million and Marquez $1 million for their epic rematch, but there were five fighters of the 14 on that show who made $3,500 or less.




quote:

But again, my question isn't "why aren't they paid more?" it's "why are we told they are making less than they actually make?"

We aren't "told" anything by the UFC, because the UFC does not give a tenth of a poo poo what the public thinks the fighters make. The only reason we get any salary information at all is because certain athletic commissions require base salary disclosure.

People say "it's to help contract negotiation" or whatever, but the only real reason the UFC doesn't report locker room bonuses is "they don't have to".

quote:

Related: Do the fighters see a decent cut of the other revenue streams (e.g. action figures, games, etc.)?

They get a cut. Whether or not it's a "decent" cut depends on what you'd consider "decent".

Five Cent Deposit
Jun 5, 2005

Sestero did not write The Disaster Artist, it's not true! It's bullshit! He did not write it!
*throws water bottle*
He did nahhhhht.

Oh hi, Greg.

jeffersonlives posted:

UFC doesn't release salary information, the commissions do. So the answer is that commissions only require contract salaries and not bonuses. UFC chooses to release the competitive bonuses, presumably as a public incentive for guys to finish/have great fights.

Yeah, I get that. I'm not talking about the FOTN, KO and Sub bonuses though. I'm talking about the constant hinting/insinuating that "we're taking care of so-and-so above and beyond his $15k."

edit: ^^Thanks for the link, FD. I'm not surprised at all to see that my impression is wrong. I guess I'm just surprised that the UFC wouldn't want to distance itself, in terms of public perception, from that business model. Especially when "legit" sports superstars all make crazy money and their earnings are discussed openly and fervidly by fans and media,

Five Cent Deposit fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Mar 14, 2011

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh


Five Cent Deposit posted:

Yeah, I get that. I'm not talking about the FOTN, KO and Sub bonuses though. I'm talking about the constant hinting/insinuating that "we're taking care of so-and-so above and beyond his $15k."

because its rude to tell people how much someone else makes.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


I can't think of many industries where your coworkers actually know your salary (unless you tell them).

Grifter
Jul 24, 2003

I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

henkman posted:

Taxes.
If the fighters don't report the bonuses as income they are very, very dumb.

Five Cent Deposit posted:

I know MMA in general and UFC specifically are sometimes shady (duh) but I hope they aren't as shady as the various boxing promoters out there... I just want to hear the thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the locker room bonuses. Especially since they aren't such closely guarded secrets.
Like fatherdog said, the UFC's ultimate reason is "because they can" but to get more detailed it's "because it is in their interest to do so."

Off the top of my head, I can think of a list of reasons why the UFC would do this.
  • It gives them greater tools in terms of rewarding fighters. Matt Hamill gets cash, Kaleb Starnes doesn't.
  • It makes it harder for fighters to negotiate.
  • It makes Dana look like some sort of a philanthropist - you can see that in action on this forum when people say "sure, he only got 10K but the locker room bonus will be sweet!" when in fact we have no idea.
  • It gives Dana the ability to talk out of both sides of his mouth. He can say things like "X fighter is the best paid in the UFC" when that can mean best contract or best bonuses or whatever he wants.
  • It grows fighter gratitude - see the philanthropy thing above.
It is a scummy system, and they do it because they can.

1st AD posted:

I can't think of many industries where your coworkers actually know your salary (unless you tell them).
Not to get too LF up in here, but this tends to work in favor of the bosses.

is pepsi ok
Oct 23, 2002



Grifter posted:

  • It grows fighter gratitude - see the philanthropy thing above.

Any time I hear a fighter make a statement about how loyal they are to the UFC or how they "just want to make the boss happy" I always assume it meant they got a nice check in the locker room and/or were promised big future payouts. I remember Wanderlei doing this a lot after the Liddell fight.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


Grifter posted:

Not to get too LF up in here, but this tends to work in favor of the bosses.

This is true, but this is how most businesses here work.

JayBulworth
Apr 1, 2010


Would a fighter's union be able to work in a world where the UFC is the only major organization? It looks increasingly likely that this will be the case, especially with all the trouble MMA has had in Japan in recent years.

niethan
Nov 22, 2005

Don't be scared, homie!


If enough fighters (especially big names) joined the union sure it would work.

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007



Since y'all are still arguing about the union poo poo, here's an article from MMA Junkie about it.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/22848/ask...nion-follow.mma

tl:dr

30% of a company's employees need to sign on to propose the formation of a union.
50% +1 of a company's employees need to vote in favor of unionization for a union to be formed.
UFC fighters are not Zuffa employees, they're independent contractors.
UFC is not a monopoly, which has no bearing on unionization anyway.

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

it seems like a fighter's guild would make more sense, since they are independent contractors on shorter contracts.

I don't really know the legal distinction, I just know that actors, writers, and reporters have guilds and they all follow sort of similar employment structures.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Xguard86 posted:

it seems like a fighter's guild would make more sense, since they are independent contractors on shorter contracts.

I don't really know the legal distinction, I just know that actors, writers, and reporters have guilds and they all follow sort of similar employment structures.

SAG is called a guild but legally speaking it's a union. I imagine the same is true for writers and reporters.

Elmo Oxygen
Jun 11, 2007

Kazuo Misaki Superfan #3

Don't make me lift my knee, young man.

Would it be accurate to say that the big camps, which are usually run by a manager or agent (Soares and Black House or Zinkin and AKA) already act as de facto fighter's guilds?

If two or three of the big camps got together to force Zuffa's arm on something, wouldn't it be functionally the same as a collective bargaining agreement?

ForbiddenWonder
Feb 15, 2003



I hear Josh Barnett is always looking for a new guild member or two.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009



Five Cent Deposit posted:

Eh, I dunno. I used to work with a pro boxer who fought on some decent sized undercards, and based on what he told me and what I've read, I guess I thought journeymen - even guys that no fan in the world has heard of or cares about - typically did better than $5,000-$10,000 to show up. What seems different is that the UFC is, in my mind, a brand more than a string of events. The "brand" seems to invest in the personalities and characters on its roster, and in that sense seems to be run more like a "sports-entertainment" company (e.g. WWE.) Boxing is a notoriously disgusting business and as an admittedly very casual fan (not interested at all these last few years) it never seemed to me like the promoters or the exhibitors cared whether YOU cared who was fighting besides the main eventers - the entire event was based on one hyped fight that everyone cares about and a bunch of filler fights that no one has anything invested in. Undercard fights seem meant to be exciting, but not in a way where you're seeing the next rising star. Boxing is all about jobbers and journeymen and everyone's records are incredibly padded. In contrast, the UFC brand seems like it is more about building and maintaining interest in each individual fighter and it just doesn't seem like they are rewarded commensurately to me. The UFC seems to have a higher number of competitive fights where one dude makes 10 times as much as the other dude, i.e. a legitimate challenger (as opposed to a jobber) making $20,000 vs. the champ making $200,000. But again, my question isn't "why aren't they paid more?" it's "why are we told they are making less than they actually make?"

I know MMA in general and UFC specifically are sometimes shady (duh) but I hope they aren't as shady as the various boxing promoters out there... I just want to hear the thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the locker room bonuses. Especially since they aren't such closely guarded secrets.

Related: Do the fighters see a decent cut of the other revenue streams (e.g. action figures, games, etc.)?


Fighters money comes from a bunch of places

-Fighting

-Bonuses for winning the fight (normally a fighter will sign a three fight deal for something like 20,000/20,000 which is 20 on top of their first payout if they win.

-Night bonuses, stuff like Fight of the Night, Knockout of the Night, Submission of the Night and so fourth, usually this is $60,000.

-Locker Room bonuses, from some places I've heard this is equal at times with their take from the night, I know Shogun Rua when he lost to Machida was given a cheque for 250,000 which was the same as his money for the fight in the first place. Some guys would probably get an additional pay out for getting robbed in a decision or fighting their heart out at short notice. This is hard to say.

-Sponsorship on their pants, hats, shirts etc, this comes from all manner of places in varying amounts, Anderson Silva for exmaple gets either 250k or 500k (can't recall) for the print on his rear end.

-Seminars, people pay big money to hear a lot of these guys talk about their approach to fighting and what not, they also have training sessions for some guys.

-Coaching, a lot of beginners will teach kids and teenagers how to throw a proper punch or sink in a good choke and having the "learn from a cage fighter" catch line helps with the profit margin.

They can also sell books as well; Liddell, Machida, Penn, Couture among others made some coin from selling books and DVDs of their techniques or life story.

It might not seem like much for a guy to make 16k on paper from winning a bout on the PPV but if he fights 3 times a year like a lot of guys do then that's 48k alone in a year, add in a FOTN bonus and some money from sponsors and it's not a bad living.

If you think these guys are making just a base wage from their published payouts you're way off.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply