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Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

manyak posted:

wasnt that because of an eyepoke?

i think maybe cuz the wiffed uppercut broke his nose?

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Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Dangersim posted:

What about wHen he got fitched to a 10-8

It was cool when he came out and dominated a perennial ww top contender until he got tired, yeah

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Dangersim posted:

What about wHen he got fitched to a 10-8

Can you see that in a discussion about whether or not a guy's lightweight title run qualifies him as the (at the time) best lightweight ever, continuing to list welterweights he fought after that lightweight run was done is still irrelevant

Like, is this a concept that is difficult to grasp

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


GSP was scared of his own shadow, and anyway he didn't quit and then body slammed bj a bunch of times

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


Fine, I concede that he was the best of all time at that point, I stand by my assertion that bj was not nearly as good as people make him out to be, which seems to be what me and Bundt are actually debating

Ditch
Jul 29, 2003

Backdrop Hunger

Just to try to put things into context, can anyone imagine a single lightweight today not being brutally murdered by Lawler in a welterweight title fight? Yet Penn was good enough at the time to beat Hughes for the title and take GSP to a split decision. Welterweight has clearly improved; GSP got much better after the first Penn fight, and top fighters are bigger and thus no longer as vulnerable to tiny punchmen.

Which is what makes Edgar's accomplishment that much more mind-boggling, considering that he isn't even big for 145 yet was able to deal with Penn in a way that involved no shortage of grappling.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


not only was bj the best lw in the world at the time but out of every retired and should-be-retired fighter out there he would be in top 5 talks for GOAT and have a strong case imo.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Nick Diaz > Lawler
Nick Diaz > Tibau
Nick Diaz > Gomi
Nick Diaz > BJ

Tibau is the most prolific lightweight of all time, and BJ is the greatest lightweight of all time, ergo Nick Diaz is the greatest lightweight of all time, and he beat Robbie Lawler.






209.

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011


Ditch posted:

Just to try to put things into context, can anyone imagine a single lightweight today not being brutally murdered by Lawler in a welterweight title fight? Yet Penn was good enough at the time to beat Hughes for the title and take GSP to a split decision. Welterweight has clearly improved; GSP got much better after the first Penn fight, and top fighters are bigger and thus no longer as vulnerable to tiny punchmen.

Which is what makes Edgar's accomplishment that much more mind-boggling, considering that he isn't even big for 145 yet was able to deal with Penn in a way that involved no shortage of grappling.
I would argue that edgars last win was not super impressive.

The bj/gsp split wasn't really a close fight.

I honestly believe that Benson could have a seemingly competitive but actually boring fight with any contender or champion at 170.

Eat This Glob
Jan 14, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

Baby Jay Penn was good. drat good for the time. Just my opinion

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Dangersim posted:

Fine, I concede that he was the best of all time at that point, I stand by my assertion that bj was not nearly as good as people make him out to be, which seems to be what me and Bundt are actually debating

You understand that having to argue for a page to get you to acknowledge a basic fact almost everyone can agree on makes it sound like a really unfun idea to try and debate you on something that you'll never have to concede, right? Getting you to give him his basic due was tough.

If you really value hard-work and determination more than other things in greatness, thats fine, but I don't agree with all the how their record looks stuff

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

And since I know Im probably going to have to defend it, you said BJ lost too many times or whatever, which is absolutely retarded imo, and also that Sherk was really impressive (coming off a career of lay n pray and a year of steroid ban) where Kenny Florian isnt. the only thing better about Sherk than kenny is how his record looks to someone who has no idea what their respective careers were like

david carmichael
Oct 28, 2011


beating kenny florian is definitely a good win, but kenny's strategy for that fight was hilariously bad. sherk had absolutely no success at all in his fight against bj so its hard to say that he wasn't playing to his strengths. they were both good wins.

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

david carmichael posted:

beating kenny florian is definitely a good win, but kenny's strategy for that fight was hilariously bad. sherk had absolutely no success at all in his fight against bj so its hard to say that he wasn't playing to his strengths. they were both good wins.

ive always thought they both used the strategy the other guy shouldve used, but on the other hand kenny was leaning into counter uppercuts in every stand up exchange and sherk was totally hopeless like you say

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


Dangersim posted:

GSP was scared of his own shadow, and anyway he didn't quit and then body slammed bj a bunch of times

He also wanted to quit in the Alves fight after tearing his groin and Greg Jacksons response was real funny.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Jon Fitch tried real hard at Purdue and went 2-40000, he is the best wrestler

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


I'm sorry Bundt but I was bored and for some reason bj has always rubbed me the wrong way.

LobsterMobster
Oct 29, 2009

"I was being quiet and trying to be a good boy but he dialed the right combination to open the throw-down vault and it was on."

"Walter Foxx is ten times brighter than your bulb at the bottom of the tree merry xmas"


Dangersim posted:

I'm sorry Bundt but I was bored and for some reason bj has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Has mamma Penn verified this?

Bundt Cake
Aug 16, 2003
;(

Dangersim posted:

I'm sorry Bundt but I was bored and for some reason bj has always rubbed me the wrong way.

i dont know why i feel the need to defend him

Foul Fowl
Sep 12, 2008

Like a snail that melteth away into slime, they shall be taken away; like a dead-born child, they shall not see the sun.

my favourite BJ Penn Moment was when everyone ridiculed edgar's chances in the rematch and they had a million trailers with BJ going 'I WANT MY BELT BACK, THIS TIME I'M SERIOUS, THE REAL BJ PENN etc.' and then he got leg kicked so hard that he fell down and looked like someone had pulled back his chair when he was about to sit down

Foul Fowl
Sep 12, 2008

Like a snail that melteth away into slime, they shall be taken away; like a dead-born child, they shall not see the sun.

the time he kicked diego in the head really hard was good too

manyak
Jan 26, 2006


Foul Fowl posted:

my favourite BJ Penn Moment was when everyone ridiculed edgar's chances in the rematch and they had a million trailers with BJ going 'I WANT MY BELT BACK, THIS TIME I'M SERIOUS, THE REAL BJ PENN etc.' and then he got leg kicked so hard that he fell down and looked like someone had pulled back his chair when he was about to sit down

There were lots of good bj penn hubris moments like when he said he was gonna fight gsp to the death and gsp was mentally weak and then bj had to quit in between rounds. A rich chubby little hawaiian guy being the best fighter for a little while was pretty cool

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Foul Fowl posted:

the time he kicked diego in the head really hard was good too

The Diego match was actually really interesting because there are a lot of examples in fighting of one fighter being better than another, but being worn down by relentless pressure and eventually losing. But Diego never slowed down, never stopped coming, walked through so many shots to the face he looked like he was in a fight with a professional-grade paper shredder, and he might as well have been fighting a brick wall for all the effect it had. It's genuinely fascinating to see a gulf in class so great that amazing cardio, amazing chin, and a psychotic willingness to walk through punishment were all completely useless.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



It was really cool when BJ squeezed a dude's head and blood squirted everywhere. All three fights with Hughes were funny/great for different reasons. BJ also fitched the gently caress out of fitch for a round and a half.

dude was insanely good and it's a loving shame he was just a fat, rich, & lazy rear end in a top hat because he could have cleared out 2+ divisions with ease. This is a guy that had a heavyweight bout with Machida. There's good reason he's a legend in the sport, and it's because there wasn't anyone like him.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


There is no point in history in which BJ could have cleared out 170.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



1st AD posted:

There is no point in history in which BJ could have cleared out 170.

I'd be curious if he could. If he could fitch Fitch, he might have been able to hold up against guys like Trigg and Newton.

CRISPYBABY
Dec 15, 2007

by Reene


BJ Penn is a good test of who actually watches fights because his record doesn't always look spectacular on paper, but he passes the eye test so hard. He put his skills together in a way that was way ahead of his time. People will forever (deservedly) make fun of him for his silly boxing in the last Edgar fight, but there was a time when he was considered to be the best boxer in MMA. His fluidity and transitions between his striking and ground game was so slick back in the era when people were more one dimensional. It's easy to compare him to fighters nowadays and go meh, but he burst onto the scene in displays of extreme violence and made pretty much every lightweight (and a few welterweights) he fought up until Edgar look like chumps.

Pocket Billiards
Aug 29, 2007
.

Early on, seeing him wipe out Din Thomas and Caol Uno was cool. Guys like Saulo Ribeiro doing lovely in MMA really lowered my expectations for another BJJ world champion so seeing him wipe out 3 guys in a row with intensity was a real surprise.

Schenck v. U.S.
Sep 8, 2010


fatherdog posted:

The Diego match was actually really interesting because there are a lot of examples in fighting of one fighter being better than another, but being worn down by relentless pressure and eventually losing. But Diego never slowed down, never stopped coming, walked through so many shots to the face he looked like he was in a fight with a professional-grade paper shredder, and he might as well have been fighting a brick wall for all the effect it had. It's genuinely fascinating to see a gulf in class so great that amazing cardio, amazing chin, and a psychotic willingness to walk through punishment were all completely useless.

Melendez-Sanchez is a good counterexample to this. Melendez was trying the same trick of boxing Diego up, but for fewer rounds and with not nearly the same talent. Gilbert was mostly successful but he lost control of the fight twice, and one of those times it almost cost him a TKO loss. He also did way less damage than BJ.

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


Reports of Melendez almost getting ko'd were greatly exaggerated

Fozzy The Bear
Sep 27, 2009


Dangersim posted:

Reports of Melendez almost getting ko'd were greatly exaggerated

Dangersim
Sep 4, 2011

He expended too much energy and got tired

I'M NOT SURPRISED MOTHERFUCKERS


He never stops moving and starts defending quickly

Bluedeanie
Jul 20, 2008

It's no longer a blue world, Max. Where could we go?



Yeah that gif was actually the entire duration Melendez is in any real trouble, Diego doesn't land any meaningful shots after that.

Marching Powder
Mar 8, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


the best example of a way better fighter nearly losing a fight that should never have been that competitive just happened in jimmie rivera vs. pedro munhoz.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



1st AD posted:

He also wanted to quit in the Alves fight after tearing his groin and Greg Jacksons response was real funny.

"I don't care George. Hit him with your groin!"

Greg Jackson has a way of psychologically managing fighters and all their weirdness and insecurities.

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



manyak posted:

wasnt that because of an eyepoke?

Plus the wiffed upercut mentioned. He was half blind and couldn't breathe, it was also the first time he'd taken that sort of damage in a fight.

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.


With how MMA evolves, in 10 years will we think of Rousey as best for her time but not in 2025, similar to how fans feel about Royce?

manyak
Jan 26, 2006


Gadamer posted:

With how MMA evolves, in 10 years will we think of Rousey as best for her time but not in 2025, similar to how fans feel about Royce?

Yes, but its not really the same as Royce at all because by now all the information on what works is out there and everything is wide open if someone wanted to come beat Rousey and take her millions, whereas nobody knew what the hell was going on back when Royce won and it was set up so he could win. Rouseys opponents do kinda suck but thats on them, its not like they are coming in with a single boxing glove on

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013



Gadamer posted:

With how MMA evolves, in 10 years will we think of Rousey as best for her time but not in 2025, similar to how fans feel about Royce?

Similar but different.

To me it highlights the different evolutionary path that WMMA will take compared to men. Yes we already know what works, but given this knowledge its surprising that basically a pure judoka ends up kicking everyone's rear end. Future developments won't necessarily follow the logic of the men's side either. Women train different sports than men, and their bodies are different as well. And since the men's sport is still evolving at a breakneck pace, the future of the women's is pretty wide open.

I think unlike with Royce, women aren't running out to learn judo in order to get better at MMA. Women are however paying very close attention to Honda in every way, and she'll clearly be a role model for some time.

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fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005


Gadamer posted:

With how MMA evolves, in 10 years will we think of Rousey as best for her time but not in 2025, similar to how fans feel about Royce?

More like about Hughes or Franklin. Head and shoulders above a very limited field.

It's interesting to think of how Hughes would be regarded if he'd retired after beating BJ. That might be a hypothetical about how Ronda's regarded if she retires before the next big WMMA fighter shows up.

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