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Radio Prune posted:https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/syria-13000-secretly-hanged-saydnaya-military-prison-shocking-new-report Peace and Stability
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Feb 7, 2017 02:40
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Fallen Hamprince posted:Bro just friggin loves skulls dude. I remember that! It was in 2008-2009 or thereabouts and ended when all the constituent members of the band who was the primary subject of the documentary fled either to Jordan or *drumroll* Syria!
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Feb 7, 2017 02:45
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Wait Mosul's been liberated!?
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Feb 7, 2017 05:40
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Grouchio posted:Wait Mosul's been liberated!? The eastern half of it yeah. I don't think they've even started the push into the western parts yet.
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Feb 7, 2017 08:05
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They gotta either swim across the river, rebuild the bridges (On both ends) or- Well, the first two aren't exactly doable. It's a stalemate until the offensive picks up on the western end of the city, isn't it?
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Feb 7, 2017 08:15
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Radio Prune posted:https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/syria-13000-secretly-hanged-saydnaya-military-prison-shocking-new-report Meanwhile Zahran Alloush and Hassan Aboud walked right out of that prison.
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Feb 7, 2017 08:54
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quote:A former judge who witnessed the hangings said: “They kept them [hanging] there for ten to 15 minutes. Some didn’t die because they are light. For the young ones, their weight wouldn’t kill them. The officers’ assistants would pull them down and break their necks”.
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Feb 7, 2017 10:36
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Nenonen posted:Holy poo poo Unless you're 1800s england and have special weight tables to calculate how many knots with what gauge of rope to use, this is a pretty common thing in hangings.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:42
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It is only logical.
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Feb 7, 2017 13:58
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Nine of Eight posted:Unless you're 1800s england and have special weight tables to calculate how many knots with what gauge of rope to use, this is a pretty common thing in hangings. Thank you.
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Feb 7, 2017 14:38
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Nine of Eight posted:Unless you're 1800s england and have special weight tables to calculate how many knots with what gauge of rope to use, this is a pretty common thing in hangings. Short drop vs long drop.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:19
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Rust Martialis posted:Short drop vs long drop. Er, you still need to properly calibrate this for the particular person else you might just slowly strangle them, or cause so much of a shock that the head near rips off.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:22
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Hanging women & children is complicated.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:29
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Is the force applied to a hanged person as the rope goes taut a normal force or a spring force
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Feb 7, 2017 17:33
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Is there any recommended reading on the Syrian Civil War from a left wing/Marxist perspective? I've found a few random articles and blog posts here and there, including on these forums, but I'd like to get more in depth.Sergg posted:Hanging women & children is complicated. It's easy, you just don't lead them as much.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:46
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Nine of Eight posted:Unless you're 1800s england and have special weight tables to calculate how many knots with what gauge of rope to use, this is a pretty common thing in hangings. They're public domain, even. Just google "drop tables", guys, it's not that goddamn hard.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Table_of_Drops
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Feb 7, 2017 19:19
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Big thread where putintin is reflecting on his time in prison in Damascus. https://twitter.com/putintintin1/status/829047471988994049
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Feb 7, 2017 19:24
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I don't know how it never crossed my mind that of course ISIS personnel reports would have a box for "children from slave girls".
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Feb 7, 2017 19:24
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quote:Notes: he doesn't want to fight, wants to return back to France.Claims his will in a martyrdom operation in France. Claims sick but doesn't have a medical report. So in other word probably "Wah Wah! Jihad is hard, I want to go home!"
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Feb 7, 2017 20:02
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Ikasuhito posted:So in other word probably "Wah Wah! Jihad is hard, I want to go home!" Well if you look at how many wives and slave girls he's acquired you can only feel sorry for him. All Jihad and no play makes Jafar a dull boy.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:07
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Is there a socio-cultural rationale for hanging as opposed to a bullet? It is macabre to consider this distinction but pretty much every modern tyranny that has resorted to mass killing/genocide used for most accountable murders some variation of a bullet to the brain (although those lazy Nazis would sometimes pile people into mass graves alive and hose them with submachine gun fire, when they weren't flinging infants into the air to shoot them for sport)
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Feb 7, 2017 20:38
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Saves money on bullets.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:40
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A 'long drop' is designed to snap the neck and sever the spinal cord, more or less instant death, neglecting errors. A shot drop hanging is death by strangulation, taking a while. I suspect the prison executions were short drops. Anyone know?
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Feb 7, 2017 20:42
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Huggybear posted:Is there a socio-cultural rationale for hanging as opposed to a bullet? It is macabre to consider this distinction but pretty much every modern tyranny that has resorted to mass killing/genocide used for most accountable murders some variation of a bullet to the brain (although those lazy Nazis would sometimes pile people into mass graves alive and hose them with submachine gun fire, when they weren't flinging infants into the air to shoot them for sport) Einsatz typically had a strict one bullet per person rule for trench full of people operations. For cost reasons. If the guy with the skull hat misses you or only wounds you, oh well, you get buried alive. There are cases of people clawing their way out of the mass grave only to find the Nazis hadn't left yet. Results predictable.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:43
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Huggybear posted:Is there a socio-cultural rationale for hanging as opposed to a bullet? It is macabre to consider this distinction but pretty much every modern tyranny that has resorted to mass killing/genocide used for most accountable murders some variation of a bullet to the brain (although those lazy Nazis would sometimes pile people into mass graves alive and hose them with submachine gun fire, when they weren't flinging infants into the air to shoot them for sport) You save the bullet. Historically hangins were how lower class people were executed while aristocrats were beheaded, doesn't really apply anymore, and it was before bullets anyway. Might be that a hanging feels less "personal" for the executioner, kind of the same with stuff like guillotines, lethal injections and electric chairs, and it is therefore "easier". Part of the reason the nazis started using gas to carry out their murders around 1942-43 is that Himmler and other high-ups actually were concerned about the mental wellbeing of the men doing the killing (yes, really) so they began to experiment with gas and other types of "less personal" methods of killing so that men wouldn't have to shoot tens or hundreds of people every day. It's all pretty hosed up.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:44
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Randarkman posted:You save the bullet. I've read that too, though Einsatz and camp guards both had huge rates of desertion, alcoholism, and suicide. I know Himmler gave a speech at one of the camps about how he knew how the guards were suffering, commending their sacrifice, and how they only felt guilty because they were proper Germans and conscience-havers, unlike the people they killed. I wonder what Syrian dungeon guard training is like. And the drop out rate. Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 20:52
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Einsatz typically had a strict one bullet per person rule for trench full of people operations. For cost reasons. If the guy with the skull hat misses you or only wounds you, oh well, you get buried alive. There are cases of people clawing their way out of the mass grave only to find the Nazis hadn't left yet. Results predictable. I understand the economic rationale, particularly in the earlier phases of the Syrian civil war/genocide when, if I remember correctly, sanctions severely limited SDF munitions (and led to improvisations like barrel bombs). I am also wondering if there is something about Syrian/pan-Arabic/Muslim culture that makes hanging, say, the least honourable way to die. And there are multiple records of Einsatzgruppen death squads laying people down in trenches and spraying them with SMG fire, as well as lining people up, shooting them from a short distance so they topple into the mass grave, and indiscriminately shooting into the bodies before they are covered.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:59
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There's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. Hanging is relatively quiet, and it does seem like secrecy has been pretty important to this whole travesty. That probably goes for inside the prison as well, if you shoot 50 people a day, nobody's going to have much of a doubt about what's going on, if you're hanging them then you probably won't hear something if your not close by on the same floor or something. Keeping the killings "hidden" like this probably makes it easier to control the inmates, even though they probably should know better than to expect to come out of such a place alive, but self-delusion is much more powerful than alot of people realize. This probably goes for majority of the guards and other people assigned to the prison as well, allow them to delude themselves into "not knowing" the fate of the prisoners and you are probably going to have more reliable and "content" guards. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of executioners doing the actual hangings was really small. e: now I feel pretty dirty and terrible thinking about this.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:09
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Hanging is cleaner than firing squad, as long as you don't botch things up. Gas, electricity and poison injection are other 'clean' methods in that the execution chamber won't be splattered with blood which would cause problems when executing thousands. They're not humane, reliable, swift and painless methods in that the execution may fail and the victim lingers for a while. A guillotine would be a swift and painless form of execution but it leaves a mess and civilized people don't murder prisoners by beheading them as it looks bad.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:13
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Randarkman posted:There's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. Hanging is relatively quiet, and it does seem like secrecy has been pretty important to this whole travesty. That probably goes for inside the prison as well, if you shoot 50 people a day, nobody's going to have much of a doubt about what's going on, if you're hanging them then you probably won't hear something if your not close by on the same floor or something. Keeping the killings "hidden" like this probably makes it easier to control the inmates, even though they probably should know better than to expect to come out of such a place alive, but self-delusion is much more powerful than alot of people realize. This probably goes for majority of the guards and other people assigned to the prison as well, allow them to delude themselves into "not knowing" the fate of the prisoners and you are probably going to have more reliable and "content" guards. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of executioners doing the actual hangings was really small. Yeah I'll stop adding to this discussion after this post because it is not the most mentally healthy thing to consider, however the Germans solved the noise issue by a) conducting executions in rooms adjacent to machinery (where for example individuals would be brought into a room with doctors present, and sent into the execution chamber with the explanation that a secondary examination was necessary) and b) telling groups of Jews they were being marched to relocation and conducting the mass executions far enough away from habitation. The easiest method, and this was something Stalin perfected, was just taking all the food away and allowing millions to starve to death (Assad obviously read his history).
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Feb 7, 2017 21:21
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Nenonen posted:A guillotine would be a swift and painless form of execution but it leaves a mess and civilized people don't murder prisoners by beheading them as it looks bad.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:27
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Huggybear posted:Yeah I'll stop adding to this discussion after this post because it is not the most mentally healthy thing to consider, however the Germans solved the noise issue by a) conducting executions in rooms adjacent to machinery (where for example individuals would be brought into a room with doctors present, and sent into the execution chamber with the explanation that a secondary examination was necessary) and b) telling groups of Jews they were being marched to relocation and conducting the mass executions far enough away from habitation. It's a disservice to the actual victims of Stalinism when you make poo poo up like that
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Feb 7, 2017 21:29
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Huggybear posted:The easiest method, and this was something Stalin perfected, was just taking all the food away and allowing millions to starve to death (Assad obviously read his history). Adding to my comment about the number of executioners possibly being very small (a few "reliable men") and the importance of secrecy and deluding the victims and (most of) the guards, it's a pretty hosed up thing learning that most of the executions in the Katyn massacre in 1940 were carried out by just a couple of such reliable NKVD men (read sociopaths), in soundproofed cells using German pistols. Like it's completely insane, one of them is alleged to have killed ~7,000 personally.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:32
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/\/\/\ yes at Kalinin the chief executioner was Vasily Blokhin who killed 250 people per night's work. Enjoy posted:It's a disservice to the actual victims of Stalinism when you make poo poo up like that It's a disservice to good posting when you just show up to make drive-by accusations. I don't even know what you are referring to. \/\/\/ In the Ukraine, officials deliberately carried out a policy of taking seed grain, year after year, causing the deaths of millions by starvation. Huggybear fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 21:38
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Huggybear posted:The easiest method, and this was something Stalin perfected, was just taking all the food away and allowing millions to starve to death (Assad obviously read his history). If we're speaking of GULag then I don't know if that was the main purpose, the idea was that prisoners were too starved to put aside a portion of their rations for an escape (though if political prisoners died as a consequence that would have been a bonus). If you mean holodomor then maybe, though it's still not clear if the Soviet famine of 1930's was an intentional genocide or just the result of criminal incompetence of the fulfillers of the five-year plan. Saddam is known to have idolized Stalin, I wonder if Bashar is similar or if he's more of a Brezhnev guy due to the generational gap.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:41
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Collateral Damage posted:I'd say civilized people don't murder prisoners, period. Please let's not make such divisive statements 
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Feb 7, 2017 21:43
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Nenonen posted:If we're speaking of GULag then I don't know if that was the main purpose, the idea was that prisoners were too starved to put aside a portion of their rations for an escape (though if political prisoners died as a consequence that would have been a bonus). If you mean holodomor then maybe, though it's still not clear if the Soviet famine of 1930's was an intentional genocide or just the result of criminal incompetence of the fulfillers of the five-year plan. Well, what's likely is that their secret police and other state-employed sociopathic thugs likely learnt quite a few tricks from the Soviets in the business of making large numbers of people disappear.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:44
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Huggybear posted:/\/\/\ yes at Kalinin the chief executioner was Vasily Blokhin who killed 250 people per night's work. You placed the Soviet famines alongside executions methods, with the implication being Stalin intentionally caused a famine to punish his own subjects. Stalin was evil and incompetent, he was not insane.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:50
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Enjoy posted:You placed the Soviet famines alongside executions methods, with the implication being Stalin intentionally caused a famine to punish his own subjects. Stalin was evil and incompetent, he was not insane. In the Ukraine, considered ethnically distinct, and yes it was totally deliberate. He exported the grain. e: I don't want to derail. Snyder, 2010: Bloodlands. Chapter 1, The Soviet Famines.
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Feb 7, 2017 21:53
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Huggybear posted:In the Ukraine, considered ethnically distinct, and yes it was totally deliberate. He exported the grain. Do you recognise that there is a difference between exporting grain and deliberately killing people? Isn't it conceivable Stalin intended to do the former without doing the latter? For example by acting on bad intelligence, or ignoring good intelligence? When Stalin ignored the spies who said Germany was about to invade in 1941, is that proof Stalin wanted the Germans to invade?
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Feb 7, 2017 21:59
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