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Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

:worship: :sun:

PRAISE THE SUN

Ultra Carp

Mr. Self Destruct posted:

:downswords:

:psyduck: You're a loving nut, that's what you are.

Edit: I'm not going to say that the media isn't biased, or that the US and NATO are universal forces of good, but for God's sake, come on.

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Drunk & Ugly
Feb 10, 2003

GIMME GIMME GIMME, DON'T ASK WHAT FOR

Brown Moses posted:

Reuters has compressed this thread into a 60 second video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0xoyIQFN58

Yes, that's Reuters who did that, not some random pro-rebel idiot, they actually picked that music and chose that editing.

Haha, it's like a trailer for a movie. LIBYA: BLOODLETTING

COMING SOON

Nombres
Jul 16, 2009

Drunk & Ugly posted:

Haha, it's like a trailer for a movie. LIBYA: BLOODLETTING

COMING SOON

We need more loving explosions!

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

What will become of the sexy Amazon bodyguard brigade?

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 days!
I have found an image that sums up the entire Libyan Revolution:-



Whoever painted that is my goddamn hero.


This was taken from the incredible photo gallery over at the atlantic

Ace Oliveira
Dec 27, 2009

"I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Rasler posted:

It's like two really awful people trying to kill each other while you watch. You're glad that one of them finally got killed, but you've still got the other one standing in the room with you afterwards...and poo poo, those two guys were friends five minutes ago.

NATO did have ulterior motives for doing it. Obviously, it's NATO.

But they didn't take out Gaddafi and his people. The rebels are the ones who did most of the work.

They didn't do it like they did in Iraq. They just greatly helped the rebels. But they didn't end it. The rebels did.

Rasler
Dec 30, 2008

etalian posted:

What will become of the sexy Amazon bodyguard brigade?

Currently hiding in Silvio Berlusconi's bedroom.

It's Bunga-Bunga time!

quote:

NATO did have ulterior motives for doing it. Obviously, it's NATO.

But they didn't take out Gaddafi and his people. The rebels are the ones who did most of the work.

They didn't do it like they did in Iraq. They just greatly helped the rebels. But they didn't end it. The rebels did.

The analogy was meant in the general terms of NATO vs Gaddafi, not just the specific act of Gaddafi's death.

Rasler fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 20, 2011

Wild Cat Willie
Jun 26, 2011

I think the biggest hypocritical thing about NATO is how they won't intervene in Syria or Yemen, both nations who have pretty much the exact same circumstances as Libya with Gaddafi over diplomatic and strategic intentions, rather than over the people of both countries. Russia really needs to stop thinking it's the cold war, nobody wants to invade Russia anymore.

Golbez
Oct 9, 2002

1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

ThePutty posted:

I think the biggest hypocritical thing about NATO is how they won't intervene in Syria or Yemen, both nations who have pretty much the exact same circumstances as Gaddafi over diplomatic and strategic intentions, rather than the people of both countries themselves.

Syria and Yemen are both also 4x the size of Libya, population-wise, and the rebellion (in Syria, at least, I'm less familiar with Yemen) is much, much less organized.

Also, NATO had leverage with Libya; they have less with Yemen and none (save Turkey) with Syria.

Wild Cat Willie
Jun 26, 2011

Golbez posted:

Syria and Yemen are both also 10x the size of Libya, population-wise, and the rebellion (in Syria, at least, I'm less familiar with Yemen) is much, much less organized.

Also, NATO had leverage with Libya; they have less with Yemen and none (save Turkey) with Syria.

It's the lesser of two evils though. Assad and Saleh are just going to kill more and more and more until the situation becomes something like North Korea.

Ace Oliveira
Dec 27, 2009

"I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Rasler posted:

The analogy was meant in the general terms of NATO vs Gaddafi, not just the specific act of Gaddafi's death.

I understand that. It's that NATO involvement greatly helped the rebels, but NATO wasn't on it's own there, is what I'm saying.

Defiant Sally
May 6, 2004


Focus your Orochi.

Al-Saqr posted:

I have found an image that sums up the entire Libyan Revolution:-



Whoever painted that is my goddamn hero.


This was taken from the incredible photo gallery over at the atlantic

I want to high five the artist responsible for this.

Hail and Kill.


For anyone who doesnt know, this is the original:

Golbez
Oct 9, 2002

1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

ThePutty posted:

It's the lesser of two evils though. Assad and Saleh are just going to kill more and more and more until the situation becomes something like North Korea.

The thing is, I can't really see a way for NATO to get involved. The countries are much larger and denser, and the militaries are still too strong. What can they do? A blockade won't do much. Air strikes would be difficult to coordinate. And the revolutionary forces aren't strong enough to make a big push either.

I know it would be nice if NATO could be involved, but Syria and Yemen are much different issues than Libya. I think if NATO decided right now that it was going to attack Syrian military assets, you would easily trigger a regional war - with Russia possibly on the other side.

Zeroisanumber
Oct 23, 2010

Nap Ghost

ThePutty posted:

It's the lesser of two evils though. Assad and Saleh are just going to kill more and more and more until the situation becomes something like North Korea.

So you want us to fight two more Iraqs? That's never going to fly. Libya almost didn't fly, and there were no ground troops involved.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

:worship: :sun:

PRAISE THE SUN

Ultra Carp

ThePutty posted:

I think the biggest hypocritical thing about NATO is how they won't intervene in Syria or Yemen, both nations who have pretty much the exact same circumstances as Gaddafi over diplomatic and strategic intentions, rather than the people of both countries themselves.

The US and NATO had a LOT of diplomatic support for intervention, including a specific request from the Arab League and a mandate from the UN Security Council. Russia will veto any Security Council measure regarding Syria, and Yemen hasn't reached the stage of "We need urgent NATO support NOW" in their revolution yet. (Which, last I heard, still has the possibility of peaceful resolution, however unlikely.)

Right now, Obama has a lot of pressure on him in regards to the revolutions-On the one hand, there's the humanitarian urge to spread Democracy and prevent deaths. However, the US can't just park a carrier off the coast of Syria and start the airstrikes-there WILL be diplomatic consequences (Especially with Russia, who owns a Naval Base there) and those repercussions may prevent the US from undertaking more necessary actions in the future.

farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
Ignoring every other single factor about Yemen here's a main problem. The protestors have repeatedly avowed their desire to be non violent. It seems strange to call that a problem but consider then exactly what a no fly zone is supposed to do? Hell lets robustly kineticize this military action up and make it a no drive zone too. What exactly do they want? Bombs, as the anti intervention people are quick to say, are not humanitarian. At best they want us to be violent for them by proxy. I don't see that ending well.

For what the protesters in Yemen want, they need blue helmets on the ground, not NATO intervention.

Delthalaz
Mar 5, 2003






Slippery Tilde
People need to realize that NATO is neither good nor bad the same way a gun is neither good nor bad. It's an organization capable of immense power projection. Power projection is merely a tool. If you agree with the ends and the means, it doesn't really matter what you think of the incredible constellation of diverse interests, individuals, and groups behind a NATO action. Citing comical russian propaganda isn't helpful.

Wild Cat Willie
Jun 26, 2011

farraday posted:

Ignoring every other single factor about Yemen here's a main problem. The protestors have repeatedly avowed their desire to be non violent. It seems strange to call that a problem but consider then exactly what a no fly zone is supposed to do? Hell lets robustly kineticize this military action up and make it a no drive zone too. What exactly do they want? Bombs, as the anti intervention people are quick to say, are not humanitarian. At best they want us to be violent for them by proxy. I don't see that ending well.

For what the protesters in Yemen want, they need blue helmets on the ground, not NATO intervention.

Generally I consider NATO intervention in Yemen if Saleh decides to tell his troops to attack everything. So it'd quickly develop into a situation like Libya.

Rasler
Dec 30, 2008

Medvedev removed his - albeit already mostly tacit - support from Assad a few days ago in a statement where his position was for Assad to go.

But you know what, as far as I can tell, there have been no public statements from any significant NATO people explicitly saying that they are having problems with the technicalities of intervention in Syria and Yemen - because nobody inside NATO nor any outside bodies are actually putting pressure on NATO to intervene. It's not actually an issue for them. They just haven't seriously considered it.

quote:


People need to realize that NATO is neither good nor bad the same way a gun is neither good nor bad. It's an organization capable of immense power projection. Power projection is merely a tool. If you agree with the ends and the means, it doesn't really matter what you think of the incredible constellation of diverse interests, individuals, and groups behind a NATO action. Citing comical russian propaganda isn't helpful.


This is really naive, sorry. NATO is the unified response of western powers (that MEANS something, they're all capitalist democracies and all allies via NATO) to a problem using military force. It is a collective action of those powers and it doesn't matter how diverse they are, they all agree on something because they're all using NATO to achieve their goals.

Whilst NATO could be correctly described as a "tool", you're ignorant of the fact that the powers behind that "tool" have common foreign policy strategies and objectives that they intend to meet via NATO, despite how diverse they may otherwise be. If any kind of diversity was behind NATO itself, it wouldnt actually work.

Since you mentioned Russia, I'll point out that the reason Russia hates NATO is because it's an opposing power bloc sitting in its back yard, "interfering" with (quite sinister) russian interests. That same power bloc is interfering in the middle east for some very singular reasons.

Rasler fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Oct 20, 2011

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

:worship: :sun:

PRAISE THE SUN

Ultra Carp
Some interesting information in this CNN article.
In particular:

CNN posted:

According to Reuters, Libyan Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said an already-injured Gadhafi was "hit in the head by a bullet" as someone - apparently anti-Gadhafi forces who had captured him - was driving him to a hospital Thursday. Jibril was citing what he said was a post-mortem report, according to Reuters.

Jibril said that before the run to the hospital, Gadhafi was found hiding in a sewage pipe and then shot in the arm, according to Reuters. Gadhafi was then put into a truck, which was headed to a hospital. However, the truck was "caught in crossfire," and a bullet struck Gadhafi in the head, Jibril said, according to Reuters.

CNN posted:

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen announced on Thursday – hours after Moammar Gadhafi was killed – that the alliance eventually "will terminate our mission" in that North African nation.

"We will terminate our mission in coordination with the United Nations and the National Transitional Council. With the reported fall of Bani Walid and Sirte, that moment has now moved much closer," Rasmussen said.

Pueidist
Jan 18, 2004

8-bit retirement home
that's the most bullshit i've ever heard lmao

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Mozi
Apr 4, 2004

Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die
Nap Ghost
Fog of war, man.

Honestly better that way than being strung up like Saddam. What an embarrassing shitshow that was.

Ace Oliveira
Dec 27, 2009

"I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Some interesting information in this CNN article.
In particular:

Oh come on, that's just gonna make it worse.

Two Plus Four
Mar 27, 2011

by Ozmaugh

Ace Oliveira posted:

I understand that. It's that NATO involvement greatly helped the rebels, but NATO wasn't on it's own there, is what I'm saying.

Before NATO removed the air threat, Gadaffi's forces were actually winning the war. The rebels were not making any progress if I read correctly in the news articles.

farraday
Jan 10, 2007

Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
The bullet wasn't shot from a gun, it was just some mean kids throwing them at him. The actual cause of death was sadness.

Yeah, hit by a bullet. Pretty much a major face palm on that one.

Ace Oliveira
Dec 27, 2009

"I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Two Plus Four posted:

Before NATO removed the air threat, Gadaffi's forces were actually winning the war. The rebels were not making any progress if I read correctly in the news articles.

The Benghazi rebels weren't. But the Nafusa rebels were still going strong. That was a place were the Gaddafi forces weren't winning, since the terrain was to the rebels' advantage.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Two Plus Four posted:

Before NATO removed the air threat, Gadaffi's forces were actually winning the war. The rebels were not making any progress if I read correctly in the news articles.

Yup and they were really hurting for lack of heavy conventional forces, NATO involvement basically removed the ruling power's main advantage over the rebels.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Here's the frontpages in the UK for tomorrow

Here's a :nws: gallery of post-mortem Muammar and Moatassim Gaddafi photos

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

Here's the frontpages in the UK for tomorrow

Here's a :nws: gallery of post-mortem Muammar and Moatassim Gaddafi photos

Thank god that there will be a page three girl to help people to get over all the gruesome pictures.

Nombres
Jul 16, 2009
I love how UK papers (The Sun, The Daily Mail and The Mirror) in this case just give no fucks. "THAT'S FOR LOCKERBIE!"

But where are the puns?!

etalian
Mar 20, 2006


And to add insult to injury getting picture tagged on Facebook without his consent.

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon
I'm guessing Libya at the moment looks like that scene from the end of Return of the Jedi after the Emperor dies. Tribal music, singing, dancing. Excised from the DVD version for being wildly out of place.

Two Plus Four
Mar 27, 2011

by Ozmaugh
Seeing those people so excited is all great and all but I recall how happy the Iraqis were when we "won" the Iraq war and wondered how happy they were when the different factions were fighting for supremacy after. From what I read, there are many factions in the rebel groups and not one will likely give up the want to be in charge. This is just the beginning of a full-on rebel war that will likely find those joyous individuals dead from bullet holes.

az jan jananam
Sep 6, 2011
HI, I'M HARDCORE SAX HERE TO DROP A NICE JUICY TURD OF A POST FROM UP ON HIGH

ThePutty posted:

I think the biggest hypocritical thing about NATO is how they won't intervene in Syria or Yemen, both nations who have pretty much the exact same circumstances as Libya with Gaddafi over diplomatic and strategic intentions, rather than over the people of both countries. Russia really needs to stop thinking it's the cold war, nobody wants to invade Russia anymore.

It isn't just the issue of consensus, it's a strategic issue. NATO intervention was effective in Libya because they could act as close air support in a civil war for rebel forces, with specific frontlines and areas to defend (Nafusa, Misrata, Benghazi). This is not the situation in Syria. Firstly, there isn't armed conflict in the first place, so there aren't front lines and the Syrian armed forces hasn't seen mass defections like Libya; they've almost uniformly stuck behind the regime.

az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Oct 20, 2011

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Two Plus Four posted:

Seeing those people so excited is all great and all but I recall how happy the Iraqis were when we "won" the Iraq war and wondered how happy they were when the different factions were fighting for supremacy after. From what I read, there are many factions in the rebel groups and not one will likely give up the want to be in charge. This is just the beginning of a full-on rebel war that will likely find those joyous individuals dead from bullet holes.

Might as well have maintained the status quo instead of going into scary unknown territory.

If there's any chance a revolution against a brutal leader will have a painful recovery process it should even be attempted.

Wild Cat Willie
Jun 26, 2011

az jan jananam posted:

It isn't just the issue of consensus, it's a strategic issue. NATO intervention was effective in Libya because they could act as close air support in a civil war for rebel forces, with specific frontlines and areas to defend (Nafusa, Misrata, Benghazi). This is not the situation in Syria. Firstly, there isn't armed conflict in the first place, so there aren't front lines and the Syrian armed forces hasn't seen mass defections like Libya; they've almost uniformly stuck behind the regime.

From articles, it seems like the Syrians want NATO to intervene so they can get together an armed force. The problem seems to be mobilizing them and getting together because of the mass crackdown. NATO issuing a No-Fly Zone would essentially blow up the powder keg with the lit fuse, that's inevitably going to blow up down the line. Better to have Syria on your side rather then hate you and condemn the west for not intervening.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

ThePutty posted:

From articles, it seems like the Syrians want NATO to intervene so they can get together an armed force. The problem seems to be mobilizing them and getting together because of the mass crackdown. NATO issuing a No-Fly Zone would essentially blow up the powder keg with the lit fuse, that's inevitably going to blow up down the line. Better to have Syria on your side rather then hate you and condemn the west for not intervening.

The problem with Syria is that their armed forces are effective enough that airstrikes alone wouldn't do enough. NATO would have to get ground forces involved and that's just not going to happen.

Grammaton
Feb 3, 2004
Cleric

ThePutty posted:

I think the biggest hypocritical thing about NATO is how they won't intervene in Syria or Yemen, both nations who have pretty much the exact same circumstances as Libya with Gaddafi over diplomatic and strategic intentions, rather than over the people of both countries. Russia really needs to stop thinking it's the cold war, nobody wants to invade Russia anymore.

That's getting close to Saudi Arabia which hates all these rebellions.

az jan jananam
Sep 6, 2011
HI, I'M HARDCORE SAX HERE TO DROP A NICE JUICY TURD OF A POST FROM UP ON HIGH

ThePutty posted:

From articles, it seems like the Syrians want NATO to intervene so they can get together an armed force. The problem seems to be mobilizing them and getting together because of the mass crackdown. NATO issuing a No-Fly Zone would essentially blow up the powder keg with the lit fuse, that's inevitably going to blow up down the line.

NATO intervening would light up a whole different type of powder keg. The comparisons to Libya aren't there. Upon the start of the revolution Libya was almost immediately expelled from the Arab League, an institution which ended up approving the 'no fly zone' (and kept quiet despite the loose interpretation thereof). Gaddafi was almost completely isolated except impotent African countries which had bribed over the years, and even 'resistance' groups like Hezbollah are cheering his downfall. Geopolitically, the intervention in Libya was as safe as it could get and had very good chances of success.

The situation in Syria is diametrically different. Almost all of Syria's neighbors have an interest in seeing Assad in power (or slowly transitioning out of power). The Arab League hasn't been able to come up with a consensus to condemn Assad, and the Assad regime has its hands in Lebanon, Iraq, and the Gaza Strip. As of right now, the revolution in Syria is an internal problem, and Iran or Syrian proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas aren't publically standing against the revolutionaries.

If NATO intervenes, the conflict takes on an entirely different nature. Simply bombing and arming the revolutionaries isn't a very viable strategy. The Syrian armed forces are disciplined, committed to Assad, and many of them are from minority groups that believe that they are literally fighting for the survival of their communities (and they have some legitimacy in believing that). The intervention would look more like Lebanon 1982 than Libya. I don't see any type of strategy in which "bomb Syria -> freedom" becomes viable on the level that it was in Libya.

az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Oct 21, 2011

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Wild Cat Willie
Jun 26, 2011

az jan jananam posted:

NATO intervening would light up a whole different type of powder keg. The comparisons to Libya aren't there. Upon the start of the revolution Libya was almost immediately expelled from the Arab League, an institution which ended up approving the 'no fly zone' (and kept quiet despite the loose interpretation thereof). Gaddafi was almost completely isolated except impotent African countries which had bribed over the years, and even 'resistance' groups like Hezbollah are cheering his downfall. Geopolitically, the intervention in Libya was as safe as it could get and had very good chances of success.

The situation in Syria is diametrically different. Almost all of Syria's neighbors have an interest in seeing Assad in power (or slowly transitioning out of power). The Arab League hasn't been able to come up with a consensus to condemn Assad, and the Assad regime has its hands in Lebanon, Iraq, and the Gaza Strip. As of right now, the revolution in Syria is an internal problem, and Iran or Syrian proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas aren't publically standing against the revolutionaries.

If NATO intervenes, the conflict takes on an entirely different nature. Simply bombing and arming the revolutionaries isn't a very viable strategy. The Syrian armed forces are disciplined, committed to Assad, and many of them are from minority groups that believe that they are literally fighting for the survival of their communities (and they have some legitimacy in believing that). The intervention would look more like Lebanon 1982 than Libya. I don't see any type of strategy in which "bomb Syria -> freedom" becomes viable on the level that it was in Libya.

Hm, makes sense. What else can possibly be done though? Surely they're not going to just let Assad go his way and utterly rape everything in his nation until it's basically the Middle Eastern North Korea.

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