Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

What are the implications of the death of the Saudi Crown Prince?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15413275

# ? Oct 22, 2011 06:29

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# ? Jun 24, 2025 05:51

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

A student posted:

What are the implications of the death of the Saudi Crown Prince?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15413275

If you'll notice he was the King's half brother. The Saudi line of succession is a little strange to Western conceptions of father-son since pretty much every king in the last century has been the son of Abdul Aziz who founded the country (basically).

They're going to be rapidly running out of his sons considering he died in 1953 and most of the ones left are pushing their 90s. It will be interesting to see what happens next, although as far as the Arab Spring goes I'm not sure it will make a difference.

farraday fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Oct 22, 2011

# ? Oct 22, 2011 06:38

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; Can't post for 3 days!

A student posted:

What are the implications of the death of the Saudi Crown Prince?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15413275

People saw his death coming a mile away so it came as no surprise.

What people are genuinely frightened about is the fact that prince Naif is now one step closer to ascending the throne.

Why is that? well Let's look at the math:-

Minister of interior + Head of all secret intelligigence and internal security + head of all the security apparatuses in the country + Head of the religious police + ultra conservative

= Naif.

= We're hosed in more ways than one, even MORE than we are now.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 07:09

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Al-Saqr posted:

People saw his death coming a mile away so it came as no surprise.

What people are genuinely frightened about is the fact that prince Naif is now one step closer to ascending the throne.

Why is that? well Let's look at the math:-

Minister of interior + Head of all secret intelligigence and internal security + head of all the security apparatuses in the country + Head of the religious police + ultra conservative

= Naif.

= We're hosed in more ways than one, even MORE than we are now.

Well maybe once some of the old bastards start dying off the rest will take the hint and keel over out of sheer propinquity.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 07:18

DevilCat: Nov 6, 2008

Patter Song posted:

Why is Bob Dylan circa 40 years ago staring at Obama's junk? Faithmouse!

The idealistic anti-war left represented by the 'Blonde On Blonde' era Dylan does not know what to make of Obama's continuing faith in The Military Option, but is willing to harmonize with the President's continuing successes by aiming the rhetorical weapon downwards. The 1966 Dylan reference alludes to the Vietnam War in a period of flux between the optimism of Kennedy's Camelot and the desperation of the Nixon White House, a time of prolonged uncertainty similar to the American military actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan today. Obama's unicorn Penelope (symbolic of either HOPE or the Anglo electoral majority) is here on the side of the young Dylan, who was himself perceived by the media as an icon of the political left when in fact he harbored strong conservative personal leanings which he hid behind a persona of aloofness. Penelope is playing Dylan's harmonica, choosing not to see and referencing the harmonica-heavy 'Just Like A Woman' (Just Like A Liberal) a song which seemingly alludes on the surface to a transsexual affair but which on a baser level hints at Dylan's coming purposeful retreat from iconic media stature, aware that it was he who was in fact acting in the role of the deceptive lover.

The central figure in the painting is Obama himself, striking a traditional Marian Co-redemptrix pose, his foot on the body of the snake while he beheads the serpent and releases the promised 'seed' (oil)-

'And I will put enmity between you and the woman
and between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
and you shall bruise Him on the heel.' (Genesis 3:15)

If the opposite side of this painting could be viewed Obama would be seen with breasts and a vagina. Prodeny of the electorate, he as President represents the eternal Mother of the military. It is only correct that in this feminine role, while taunting the Libyan leader with his perfect unattainable buttocks, that he should act as both judge and castrator of the flamboyant dictator. Having removed from Gadaffi the source of his power and prowess, only Obama's heel holds him in the frame. Gadaffi is dressed in green because I thought the painting needed more green.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 07:22

Homeroom Fingering: Apr 25, 2009; The secret history (((they))) don't want you to know

Is that what it is? I thought Bilbo Baggins was serenading Obama's cock.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 07:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Gaddafi died a very rich man:

quote:

Kadafi had a 'staggering' $200 billion stashed around the world

Moammar Kadafi secretly salted away more than $200 billion in bank accounts, real estate and corporate investments around the world before he was killed, about $30,000 for every Libyan citizen and double the amount that Western governments previously had suspected, according to senior Libyan officials.

The new estimates of the deposed dictator�s hidden cash, gold reserves and investments are �staggering,� one person who has studied detailed records of the asset search said Friday. �No one truly appreciated the scope of it.�

If the values prove accurate, Kadafi will go down in history as one of the most rapacious as well as one of the most bizarre world leaders, on a scale with the late Mobutu Sese Seko in the Democratic Republic of Congo or the late Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines.

Revelation of the stunning size of the portfolio may stir anger among Libyans -- about one-third of whom live in poverty. And it is likely to spur an effort to return the money to Libya�s transitional government, which says it wants to embark on ambitious plan to modernize the country after nearly 42 years of rule by Kadafi�s whim.
During his 42 years in power, Kadafi steered aid and investments to benefit his own family and tribe, but he denied support for much of the country, especially the eastern region that historically resisted his family�s despotic grip on power.

Kadafi�s death after he was captured by revolutionary fighters Thursday outside his birthplace, the coastal town of Surt, not only ended the armed uprising that erupted last February, it also sets the stage for other governments to begin repatriating a bonanza in sequestered assets to the oil-rich but cash-poor nation.

Obama administration officials were stunned last spring when they found $37 billion in Libyan regime accounts and investments in the United States, and they quickly froze the assets before Kadafi or his aides could move them.

Governments in France, Italy, England and Germany seized control of another $30 billion or so. Investigators estimated that Kadafi had stashed perhaps another $30 billion elsewhere in the world, for a total of about $100 billion.

But subsequent investigations by American, European and Libyan authorities determined that Kadafi secretly sent tens of billions more abroad over the years and made sometimes lucrative investments in nearly every major country, including much of the Middle East and Southeast Asia, officials said Wednesday.

Most of the money was under the name of government institutions such as the Central Bank of Libya, the Libyan Investment Authority, the Libyan Foreign Bank, the Libyan National Oil Corp. and the Libya Africa Investment Portfolio.

But investigators said Kadafi and his family members could have had access to any of the money if they chose to.

Libya has the largest proven oil reserves in Africa.

Apparently a large part of it was part of the Libyan Investment Authority, so hopefully the people of Libya will benefit from this money, not his shitbag family members.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 09:39

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Reuters just tweeted this

quote:

Libya's Jebril says elections to a new national congress should take place within 8 months

# ? Oct 22, 2011 09:55

Punk da Bundo: Dec 29, 2006; by FactsAreUseless

Personally, I like my revolutions bloody. India was lame :colbert:

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:00

J33uk: Oct 24, 2005

Pon de Bundy posted:

Personally, I like my revolutions bloody. India was lame

Yeah partition sure was bloodless.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:12

Synthbuttrange: May 6, 2007

Local news gave their article 'Gaddafi on Ice'. Which is kind of headshaking and brilliant at the same time.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Gaddafi's wife and daughter are being moved from Algeria to an unamed Gulf state, according to reports.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:40

Bolivar: Aug 20, 2011

Did Gaddafi travel a lot, or spend time in other countries? With 200 billion dollars it would probably make sense to not spend most your time in a lovely country like Libya. Of course, keeping the dictatorship running and the money flowing requires a certain presence in the country.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I got the impression his sons represented his business interests abroad, while he stuck to state visit, and rambling speeches at the UN. Early on in the conflict some squatters got inside one of his sons luxury homes in London, and his other sons got into plenty of trouble in other countries, which was generally brushed under the carpet by friendly governments.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 10:49

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Bolivar posted:

Did Gaddafi travel a lot, or spend time in other countries? With 200 billion dollars it would probably make sense to not spend most your time in a lovely country like Libya. Of course, keeping the dictatorship running and the money flowing requires a certain presence in the country.

That's the whole point of being a dictator. When you can afford to build luxurious palaces, wall off enormous compounds, and make people who bother you vanish in the middle of the night, it's no longer a lovely country you're in. At least for you.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 11:31

Ultras Lazio: May 22, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

Brown Moses posted:

Gaddafi's wife and daughter are being moved from Algeria to an unamed Gulf state, according to reports.

...as long as they stay as far as possible from those 200bil...

On a serious note:
How do xyz go after the money?
How do xyz make it that these money get to the Libian people?
How do we ensure that people don't start killing each other for the money?

The money is serious enough to bail out entire economies...

# ? Oct 22, 2011 11:33

Bolivar: Aug 20, 2011

Killer robot posted:

That's the whole point of being a dictator. When you can afford to build luxurious palaces, wall off enormous compounds, and make people who bother you vanish in the middle of the night, it's no longer a lovely country you're in. At least for you.

Yeah yeah, but you can't build your own Tokyo or New York or Bali into some compound in Libya. I'm going a bit offtopic of course, just wondering if he really basically just spent time in his desert country with his 200 billion...

# ? Oct 22, 2011 11:45

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

I guess quiet period to see if all that faith in the NTC was actually worth it from this thread.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 12:00

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Bolivar posted:

Yeah yeah, but you can't build your own Tokyo or New York or Bali into some compound in Libya. I'm going a bit offtopic of course, just wondering if he really basically just spent time in his desert country with his 200 billion...

Well it probably wasn't terribly boring chilling in his tent while the voice in his head suggested new things to have gold-plated.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 12:02

AKA Pseudonym: May 16, 2004; A dashing and sophisticated young man; Doctor Rope

Sometimes it's hard to believe the New York Post is a real newspaper

# ? Oct 22, 2011 12:04

kindermord: Jun 5, 2003; ducks is chickens with swimmy toes

If Daffy had 200 billionbux he should have hired a pool boy - or better yet a bikini-clad platoon of pool babes- so his grandkids wouldn't have had to splash around in those vats of slimey green water he kept in his palaces.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 12:46

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Brown Moses posted:

Early on in the conflict some squatters got inside one of his sons luxury homes in London, and his other sons got into plenty of trouble in other countries, which was generally brushed under the carpet by friendly governments.

Especially Switzerland after they had the gall to go after one his idiot sons after he badly beat up two hotel staff.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 14:31

SatanX: Aug 25, 2002; I am the Don Quixote of donkey dookie

AKA Pseudonym posted:

Sometimes it's hard to believe the New York Post is a real newspaper

It's hard to believe cause the Post is nothing more then a daily 'Weekly World News' with a little better advertising....

# ? Oct 22, 2011 14:33

a glitch: Jun 27, 2008; no wait stop; Soiled Meat

Brown Moses posted:

http://twitter.com/#!/StopWarCrimes/good-people

Yesss, thanks BM. Gratz on the baby too.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 15:31

Wild Cat Willie: Jun 26, 2011

Do you think what the rebels did to Gaddafi when they captured him is torture? I had a debate today with the opposite side claiming that by hitting Gaddafi and dragging him onto the ground, that equates as torture and the Rebels are animals and just as bad as Gaddafi. I think everything Gaddafi gets he deserves, but no way did I agree the rebels are as bad as Gaddafi. In the situation the Rebels are in, I can understand wanting to hit the man who destroyed your city, killed and tortured your family members with electric shocks and whips and systematically raped women in your town while they levelled it.

It doesn't give the automatic right to hit Gaddafi, but I really don't think this equates to torture. I think if they wanted to torture him, they wouldn't have taken him on an ambulance and tried to keep him alive, and I think they would have been doing a lot more to Gaddafi than a few hits, not to mention we don't even know half the details on what happened to him.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 15:54

EasyEW: Mar 8, 2006; I've got my father's great big six-shooter with me 'n' if anybody in this woods wants to start somethin' just let 'em--but they DASSN'T.

AKA Pseudonym posted:

Sometimes it's hard to believe the New York Post is a real newspaper

They do want us to like the gunman, don't they?

# ? Oct 22, 2011 16:29

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Torture is abuse and harm etc directed at forcing a confession or gaining information. These people didn't want any information or confession from Gaddafi.

This was just violence. But not torture, it's missing the entire motive part.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 17:22

thexerox123: Aug 17, 2007

Warcabbit posted:

Torture is abuse and harm etc directed at forcing a confession or gaining information. These people didn't want any information or confession from Gaddafi.

This was just violence. But not torture, it's missing the entire motive part.

That's not true...

Dictionary.com posted:

the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

(I agree that it isn't torture, just not for that specific reason.)

thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 22, 2011

# ? Oct 22, 2011 17:27

Narmi: Feb 26, 2008

ThePutty posted:

Do you think what the rebels did to Gaddafi when they captured him is torture? I had a debate today with the opposite side claiming that by hitting Gaddafi and dragging him onto the ground, that equates as torture and the Rebels are animals and just as bad as Gaddafi. I think everything Gaddafi gets he deserves, but no way did I agree the rebels are as bad as Gaddafi. In the situation the Rebels are in, I can understand wanting to hit the man who destroyed your city, killed and tortured your family members with electric shocks and whips and systematically raped women in your town while they levelled it.

It doesn't give the automatic right to hit Gaddafi, but I really don't think this equates to torture. I think if they wanted to torture him, they wouldn't have taken him on an ambulance and tried to keep him alive, and I think they would have been doing a lot more to Gaddafi than a few hits, not to mention we don't even know half the details on what happened to him.

I would not characterize their treatment of him as torture per se. I would call it uncivilized (or at worst, barbaric) to treat what is essentially a POW in that manner, but it's not like they strapped him to a chair and took a pair of pliers to him. They were mostly dragging him around and handling him roughly (though some people did hit him while he was restrained) to show him off.

Narmi fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 22, 2011

# ? Oct 22, 2011 17:56

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

I think abusive would be clearly accurate, but I agree calling it torture sort of cheapens that term and makes it applicable to all sorts of disjointed violence.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 18:05

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

ThePutty posted:

Do you think what the rebels did to Gaddafi when they captured him is torture? I had a debate today with the opposite side claiming that by hitting Gaddafi and dragging him onto the ground, that equates as torture and the Rebels are animals and just as bad as Gaddafi. I think everything Gaddafi gets he deserves, but no way did I agree the rebels are as bad as Gaddafi. In the situation the Rebels are in, I can understand wanting to hit the man who destroyed your city, killed and tortured your family members with electric shocks and whips and systematically raped women in your town while they levelled it.

It doesn't give the automatic right to hit Gaddafi, but I really don't think this equates to torture. I think if they wanted to torture him, they wouldn't have taken him on an ambulance and tried to keep him alive, and I think they would have been doing a lot more to Gaddafi than a few hits, not to mention we don't even know half the details on what happened to him.

Remember, you'll find white knights for anything.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:00

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Reuters has a good piece about Gaddafi's body and how he died:

quote:

Clues to Gaddafi's death concealed from public view

Libyan forces guarding Muammar Gaddafi's body in a cold storage room let in members of the public to view the deposed leader for a second day on Saturday, but the wounds that may hold the clue to how he died were covered up.

Gaddafi's body lay on a mattress on the floor of the cold room, as it did on Friday when hundreds of members of the public filed in to see for themselves that the man who ruled Libya for 42 years was dead.

But unlike the previous day, Gaddafi's body was covered by a blanket that left only his head exposed, hiding the bruises on his torso and scratch marks on his chest that had earlier been visible.

And, crucially, a Reuters reporter who viewed the body said, Gaddafi's head had been turned to the left. That meant a bullet hole that earlier could be seen on the left side of his face, just in front of his ear, could no longer be seen.

Guards overseeing Gaddafi's body handed out green surgical masks to dozens of people filing in to take a look because of the stench of rotting flesh filling the room.

The bullet hole in Gaddafi's head, and the other wounds, could help solve the riddle of whether, as Libya's new rulers said, he was shot in crossfire in a battle or, as some accounts suggest, he was killed by the fighters who caught him.

A local military commander in the city of Misrata, where the forces which captured him took his body, said "over-enthusiastic" fighters took matters into their own hands when they came face to face with the man they despise.

"We wanted to keep him alive but the young guys, things went out of control," he said speaking on condition of anonymity.

Few people in Libya -- where thousands of people, including civilians, were killed by Gaddafi's forces in the seven-month rebellion -- say they are troubled by the manner of his death.

But if he was indeed killed by his captors, it will cast doubt on the promises by Libya's new rulers to respect human rights and prevent reprisals. It would also embarrass Western governments which gave their wholehearted backing to the NTC.

MISSING PIECE

The dramatic minutes leading up to Gaddafi's death were chaotic, violent and gruesome -- as testified by the grainy mobile phone footage seen by the world of the former leader, bloodied and dazed, being dragged along by NTC fighters.

What is not captured in the footage, and is missing from accounts of the events given by fighters who were there, is how he died and who killed him.

Gaddafi was still alive when he was captured hiding in a storm drain outside his hometown of Sirte, but he already had blood streaming down the side of his face and a wound close to his left ear very shortly after he had been seized.

Government fighters hauled him onto the bonnet of a Toyota pick-up truck with the intention, one of them said, of getting him through the crowd of fellow fighters and to an ambulance parked about 500 meters (yards) away.

Gaddafi can be heard in one video saying "God forbids this" several times as slaps from the crowd rain down on his head.

"This is for Misrata, you dog," said one man slapping him.

"Do you know right from wrong?" Gaddafi says.

"Shut up you dog," someone replies as more blows rain down.

Misrata, one of the heartlands of the anti-Gaddafi rebellion, suffered months of siege and artillery bombardment at the hands of his forces.

Another video shows Gaddafi being heaved off the bonnet of the truck and dragged toward a car, then pulled down by his hair. "Keep him alive, keep him alive!" someone shouts.

But another man in the crowd lets out a high-pitched hysterical scream. Gaddafi then goes out of view and gunshots ring out. One of the fighters present said Gaddafi was in a bad way but alive when he was put in the ambulance.

Yet the ambulance driver, Ali Jaghdoun, said Gaddafi was dead when he picked him up and he then drove the body to the city of Misrata. "I didn't try to revive him because he was already dead," Jaghdoun said.

WOUNDS STITCHED UP

In the cold store in Misrata, the body of one of Gaddafi's sons, Mo'tassim, had been moved from another location elsewhere in Misrata and placed next to his dead father.

The circumstances leading to the death of Mo'tassim, his father's national security adviser who was also captured in Sirte, are similarly murky.

A Reuters reporter was shown a one-minute segment of mobile phone footage in which a man, who resembled Mo'tassim, was squatting in a room. He was stripped to the waist, and smoking a cigarette. He did not appear badly wounded.

Someone could be heard telling him repeatedly: "Say Allahu Akbar, say Allahu Akbar." The phrase, which means "God is greatest," is a favorite mantra of the anti-Gaddafi fighters.

At some point after that, he died. When a Reuters reporter saw his body on Thursday evening, it was laid out in a private house in Misrata. Wounds to his jaw and part of his neck were visible.

On Saturday in the cold store, Mo'tassim's body was covered up to the neck with a blanket. The wounds to his jaw and neck had been stitched up.

Later in the day, the body of a third man, Abu Bakr Younus Jabr, was brought in and placed on a stretcher between Gaddafi and his son.

Head of Gaddafi's armed forces, by then just a handful of troops, Jabr was captured in Sirte alongside his leader. A bandage was tied under his chin and looped over the top of his head.

Bullet wounds could be seen to his chest and the top of his left arm. A Reuters reporter who was able to get close to the body said she could see gunpowder residue around the wounds -- which is often consistent with being shot at close range.

The people queuing outside the cold store, waiting to view the bodies, did not seem concerned about how their former leader and his entourage died.

Two Filipino nurses filed in to take pictures. Children were among the few dozen people waiting outside for their turn.

Abdullah al-Senussi, a man with a white beard, was so frail he had to be supported by people on either side of him as he made his way to the cold store.

"We wanted to know if it was true or not," he said. "We wanted to see him."

Two men arrived waving airline tickets, saying they needed to jump the queue to see Gaddafi or they would miss their flights.

Asked if it would not have been better for Gaddafi to stand trial, Abdulatif, a pilot waiting in line, said: "What would he tell the mother whose children were killed or the girls who were raped?"

"If he lived and was killed a thousand times, that would still only be a trifle."

This is a picture of how he's displayed at the moment.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Oct 22, 2011

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:18

pantslesswithwolves: Oct 28, 2008; by Fluffdaddy

Man, given what Misrata went through, Qadhafi couldn't have picked a worse contingent of fighters to be captured by than those who came from there. All things considered, he's probably lucky he just got off by being beaten and then executed- I would have thought the Misratans would have drawn and quartered him.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:24

Spiky Ooze: Oct 27, 2005; Bernie Sanders is a friend to my planet (pictured)

click the shit outta^

Namarrgon posted:

Remember, you'll find white knights for anything.

A lot of people have their heads in the sand. They can tolerate genocides and atrocities going on every day in the world, but shown an aesthetically degrading death scene, even of a vicious dictator, and suddenly they're all "oh my! How evil!" Well, no poo poo. But the guy lived by the sword, and he died by it. It doesn't mean the Taliban is running Libya now, but that the people were that incensed about the kind of place they were living that there was an uprising.

I mean honestly what's probably going on there right now is one hell of a celebration.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

suboptimal posted:

Man, given what Misrata went through, Qadhafi couldn't have picked a worse contingent of fighters to be captured by than those who came from there. All things considered, he's probably lucky he just got off by being beaten and then executed- I would have thought the Misratans would have drawn and quartered him.

Yeah, he really picked the worst possible direction to head in when he tried to escape, had he went east he would have run into Benghazi fighters and probably would have survived a lot longer based on their past behaviour.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:37

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Gabriel Gatehouse of the BBC has a bit more on the capture of Gaddafi

quote:

just interviewed the commander who captured Gaddafi, BBC exclusive. Gaddafi shot in tough battle. Impossible to tell who fired lethal shot
Omran el Oweyb says Gaddafi died in battle on the front line. As commander he takes full responsibility
Said "I tried to take him alive, to judge him in Misrata". But he died before he could get him to air ambulance
Said Gaddafi took only around ten steps between being dragged out of drain and falling down on the ground. Confirms some wanted to kill him
Also said he thought Gaddafi had shot Baker Younis inside the drain, with gunshot to the forehead. G had two pistols: 1 golden, 1 silver
Omran el Oweyb "#Gaddafi passed away on the front line. I am responsible for that. I am the commander"

Javier Espinosa also has some information on the same commander reported above:

quote:

tomorrow in EL MUNDO print edition story of Omran Al Aweyb, my ex fixer and now commander in Misrata who captured Gaddafi
BBC is already interviewing him as ##CommanderWhoGotGaddafi an amazing story
we worked for almost a month in the battle of Misrata a brave man who never run away even when the situation was really bad
I just discovered his role in Gaddafi's capture when another friend @alberarce send me a video with him and Gaddafi dead
he lost a brother (Mahmud) in the revolution on friday his mother told him: thank you Omran Mahmud did not die in vain
in may he was an simple engineer without job who volunteer to help at Hikma Hospital he did not like to fight
after I left in june he started to organize friends from Tamina his neighborhood in #Misrata and create his own militia
"i'm very sorry I wanted to take him (#Gaddafi) alive" he told me on Friday by phone
He avoid answering about who killed #Gaddafi "it was crazy there everybody was shooting"
i met him at the start of the battle in #Sirte he was a commander now but still a good friend always ready to explain the chaos there

You can find them and more on my Libya Journalist twitter list, which I try to keep up to date with journalists as they enter Libya.

Crowd lining up to see Gaddafi body
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD-aXPTEE5M

# ? Oct 22, 2011 19:56

Fiend: Dec 2, 2001

AKA Pseudonym posted:

Sometimes it's hard to believe the New York Post is a real newspaper

Makes you wonder if the gunman gave him an ironic "FUGETABOUTIT" immediately after offing him.

Or if there are any gossip rags specific to cities in Middle America also trying to humanize the executioner with characteristics closer to their readership. Like the Nebraska Possum Hump Examiner with a tagline "GUNMAN WAS A FAN OF CORN AND INBREEDING" or something.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 20:09

Bolivar: Aug 20, 2011

Also funny how apparently a Yankees cap makes you a Yankees fan. It's just a fashion thing, geez :cmon:

# ? Oct 22, 2011 20:14

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The New York Times has a piece on the last days of Gaddafi

quote:

In His Last Days, Qaddafi Wearied of Fugitive�s Life

After 42 years of absolute power in Libya, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi spent his last days hovering between defiance, anger and delusion, surviving on rice and pasta his guards scrounged from the emptied civilian houses he moved between every few days, according to an aide captured with him.

Under siege by the former rebels for weeks, Colonel Qaddafi grew impatient with life on the run in the city of Surt, said the aide, Mansour Dhao Ibrahim, the leader of the country�s People Guard, a network of loyalist volunteers and informants. �He would say: �Why is there no electricity? Why is there no water?� �

Mr. Dhao, who stayed close to Colonel Qaddafi throughout the siege, said that he and other aides repeatedly counseled the colonel to leave power or the country, but that the colonel and one of his sons, Muatassim, would not even consider the option.

Still, though some of the colonel�s supporters portrayed him as bellicose to the end, armed at the front lines, he actually did not take part in the fighting, Mr. Dhao said, instead preferring to read or make calls on his satellite phone. �I�m sure not a single shot was fired,� he said.

As Libya�s interim leaders prepared Saturday to formally start the transition to an elected government and set a timeline for national elections in 2012, sweeping away Colonel Qaddafi�s dictatorship, they faced the certainty that even in death the colonel had hurt them. The battle for Surt, Colonel Qaddafi�s birthplace, was prolonged for months by the presence of the elite cadre he kept with him, delaying the end of a war most Libyans had hoped would be over with the fall of Tripoli in August.

Mr. Dhao�s comments, in an interview on Saturday at the military intelligence headquarters in Misurata, came as the final details of the colonel�s death, at the hands of the fighters who had captured him, were still being debated.

Residents of Misurata spent a third day viewing the bodies of Colonel Qaddafi and his son at a meat locker in a local shopping mall. Officials with the interim government have said that they will conduct an autopsy on the bodies and investigate allegations that the two men may have been killed while in custody, though local security officials have said they see no need for such an inquiry.

Mr. Dhao, who knew Colonel Qaddafi for decades and became a member of his trusted inner circle, spoke in a large conference room that served as his cell, wearing a blanket on his legs and a blue shirt, maybe an electric company uniform, inscribed with the word �power.�

A few guards were present, but they spoke only among themselves. He said his captors had treated him well and had sent doctors to tend to injuries he sustained before his capture, including shrapnel wounds under his eye, on his back and his left arm.

Many of his statements were clearly self-serving; he said, for instance, that he and others had repeatedly tried to convince Colonel Qaddafi that the revolutionaries were not rats and mercenaries, as the colonel was fond of saying, but ordinary people.

�He knew that these were Libyans who were revolting,� he said. Other times, he seemed full of regret, explaining his failure to surrender or escape as his way of fulfilling � a moral obligation to stay� with the colonel before adding, �My courage failed me.�

His account of the battle did not address the accusations made by the former rebels of abuses by loyalist forces inside Surt. Ismael al-Shukri, the deputy chief of military intelligence in Misurata, said that loyalists had used families as human shields and that there were reports that loyalist soldiers had detained daughters to prevent families from leaving. The former rebels have also said that the Qaddafi forces executed soldiers who refused to fight.

Colonel Qaddafi fled to Surt on the day Tripoli fell, in a small convoy. �He was very afraid of NATO,� said Mr. Dhao, who joined him about a week later. The decision to stay in the city had been Muatassim�s, who reasoned that the city, long known as an important pro-Qaddafi stronghold and under frequent bombardment by NATO airstrikes, was the last place anyone would look.

The colonel traveled with about 10 people, including close aides and guards. Muatassim, who commanded the loyalist forces, traveled separately from his father, fearing that his satellite phone was being tracked.

Apart from the phone, which the colonel used to make frequent statements to a Syrian television station that became his official outlet, he was largely �cut off from the world,� Mr. Dhao said. He did not have a computer, and in any case, there was rarely any electricity. The colonel, who was fond of framing the revolution as a religious war between devout Muslims and the rebel�s Western backers, spent his time reading the Koran, Mr. Dhao said.

He refused to hear pleas to give up power. He would say, according to Mr. Dhao: �This is my country. I handed over power in 1977,� referring to his oft-repeated assertion that power was actually in the hands of the Libyan people. �We tried for a time, and then the door was shut,� the aide said, saying that the colonel seemed more open to the idea of giving up power than his sons did.

For weeks, the former rebels fired heavy weapons indiscriminately at the city. �Random shelling was everywhere,� said Mr. Dhao, adding that a rocket or a mortar shell struck one of the houses where the colonel was staying, injuring more of his guards. A chef who was traveling with the group was also hurt, so everyone started cooking, Mr. Dhao said.

About two weeks ago, as the former rebels stormed the city center, the colonel and his sons were trapped in two houses in a residential area called District No. 2. Colonel Qaddafi decided it was time to leave and planned to flee to one of his houses nearby, where he had been born.

On Thursday, a convoy of dozens of cars was supposed to leave at about 3 a.m., but disorganization by the loyalist volunteers delayed the departure, until 8 a.m. In broad daylight, the NATO warplanes and former rebel fighters found them half an hour after they left.

Mr. Dhao said he was hit by shrapnel, and when he woke up, he was in the hospital.

�I�m sorry for all that happened to Libya,� he said, �from the beginning to the end.�

Interesting the he seemed so isolated towards the end, even thinking he could safely flee to his old home in broad daylight, a home I'm pretty sure was reported to have been ransacked weeks before. I guess he really didn't have a clue what was going on outside of Sirte.

# ? Oct 22, 2011 20:16

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# ? Jun 24, 2025 05:51

Nombres: Jul 16, 2009

Bolivar posted:

Also funny how apparently a Yankees cap makes you a Yankees fan. It's just a fashion thing, geez

Thank god he wasn't wearing a Red Sox cap or America would have to bomb Libya out of principle. :colbert:

# ? Oct 22, 2011 20:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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