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It's really important to understand why it was a very bad decision for Gaddafi to head towards the Misrata rebels. The best place to start is the PHR report on the Seige of Misrata, and after that you've got to understand the Misratans were involved with some of the heaviest fighting against Gaddafi forces in Zliten and later Sirte, and by the time Gaddafi ran into them they had already effectively ethnically cleansed Tawergha for revenge for what the soldiers from Tawergha did in Misrata, so Gaddafi wasn't going to get any better treatement.
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Oct 23, 2011 21:59
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Brown Moses posted:It's really important to understand why it was a very bad decision for Gaddafi to head towards the Misrata rebels. The best place to start is the PHR report on the Seige of Misrata, and after that you've got to understand the Misratans were involved with some of the heaviest fighting against Gaddafi forces in Zliten and later Sirte, and by the time Gaddafi ran into them they had already effectively ethnically cleansed Tawergha for revenge for what the soldiers from Tawergha did in Misrata, so Gaddafi wasn't going to get any better treatement. Thank you for this. Really puts rebel anger into perspective.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:02
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Sigh. Yes, yes Ghadaffi was the evil anti-American dictator who deserved to be shot in the head. Lets not talk about American backed dictators and terrorists, both past and present, who were just as hosed up and "evil." Some of whom were allowed to "retire" to the United States. Let's not talk about the ways in which the United States military has encouraged, participated in, or turned a blind eye to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Certainly don't mention 100,000 children died in Iraq as a direct result of our sanction policy in the 1990s. No, we understand in America that what we do and what our allies do is always good. And we deserve more human rights than that Ghadaffi guy. I mean there was a rape room somewhere, the news told me so. Oh, and that bastard nationalized his oil industry. gently caress him. He deserves to be captured, and all his legal rights as defined by international law ignored and summarily shot in the head. And I will be sure to complain about the rules of armed conflict only in the event that an American pow is killed.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:11
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I'm angry! Angry about inconsistencies in everyone's world view but my own!
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Oct 23, 2011 22:21
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Brown Moses posted:It's really important to understand why it was a very bad decision for Gaddafi to head towards the Misrata rebels. The best place to start is the PHR report on the Seige of Misrata, and after that you've got to understand the Misratans were involved with some of the heaviest fighting against Gaddafi forces in Zliten and later Sirte, and by the time Gaddafi ran into them they had already effectively ethnically cleansed Tawergha for revenge for what the soldiers from Tawergha did in Misrata, so Gaddafi wasn't going to get any better treatement. Wait, the rebels are committing hate crimes against Berbers or black people? Who is being ethnically cleansed?
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Oct 23, 2011 22:37
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ZombieLenin posted:Sigh. Yes, yes Ghadaffi was the evil anti-American dictator who deserved to be shot in the head. Lets not talk about American backed dictators and terrorists, both past and present, who were just as hosed up and "evil." All governments have interests and conduct their foreign policy to maximize the realization of those interests. These things are not static and do not develop in a vacuum, and amazingly enough, they change over time. This leads to indescribably hosed up scenarios in which, yes, we support hosed up people and their hosed up things that they do and do hosed up things on our own- it's an unfortunate fact of history which goes further than Thucydides and the history of the Peloponnesian War. No amount of legislation, international tribunals, or other effort will ever change this fact. Has US foreign policy ever been anything but hypocritical and avaricious? No. But I challenge you to find me ANY state that would not conduct its foreign policy in a similar fashion. Before you accuse me of white-knighting the various crimes committed abroad by the American government, I should point out that I'm not defending this- I'm just pointing out the historical record here. It's also uncontroversial to say that there are the occasional instances when we actually do manage to get things right, and all things considered, the Libyan intervention has heretofore been one of those rare successes. As far as your tired assertion that this war was about oil- no. Qadhafi had been more than content to allow foreign oil companies into do business, and the international community happily obliged him. I believe that Qadhafi's execution was wrong, but when compared to what he did to that country for 42 years, and what he did to Misrata, I'm not going to shed many tears about him getting roughed up and shot. I maintain that this was probably the most merciful end he could have hoped for.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:42
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Shanakin posted:The interesting thing with this is that he still quite clearly has both ears and the source of the bleeding head wound is too high and forward to be a torn off ear as some suggested. In fact it looks a bit like it's coming from approximately where the bullet wound is meant to be. I stand by my pet theory that he was shot in the upper jaw roughly upon capture and survived for perhaps a maximum of ten minutes. This would explain the bleeding as well as his apparent state of shock (although this could also be explained by any number of other factors).
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Oct 23, 2011 22:49
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Wait, the rebels are committing hate crimes against Berbers or black people? Who is being ethnically cleansed? Berber is an ethnolinguistic group will include many groups. The Nafusi were generally pretty firmly in the anti-Qaddafi camp. The Tuaregs were much less so. I'm not sure if the Tuareg were specifically linked to Tawargha.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:52
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Brown Moses posted:New video of Gaddafi's capture, much clearer then others Looks like he had that hole in the left side of his head at the time and was still alive, but it is a shaky video online so who can say for sure.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:52
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Sorry, I meant Tuareg, not Berber. If I remember right, I think Tawergha/Taworga is etymologically related to Tuareg (usually "black" people), but I sure hope the KKK-style lynchmobs die down a bit.
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Oct 23, 2011 22:53
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Can someone re-post that awesome Tunisian election ad where they rip down Ben_Ali's huge poster? Want to show that to a friend.
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Oct 23, 2011 23:05
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Nenonen posted:Please source your claims when you use them to support murder. Thank you. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/09/08/muammar-gaddafi-s-shocking-university-love-den.html http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/09/08/qaddafi_love_den_jacuzzi_gynecological_equipment_found_beneath_l.html The rape aspect is still just speculation though.
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Oct 23, 2011 23:10
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Nice Pic of his famous Rice stalker pic album:
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Oct 23, 2011 23:14
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DarkCrawler posted:Can someone re-post that awesome Tunisian election ad where they rip down Ben_Ali's huge poster? Want to show that to a friend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWvgASA_Q4&feature=player_embedded
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Oct 23, 2011 23:19
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etalian posted:Nice Pic of his famous Rice stalker pic album:
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Oct 23, 2011 23:21
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OwlBot 2000 posted:If I remember right, I think Tawergha/Taworga is etymologically related to Tuareg That sounds unlikely unless you have a source that says otherwise. 'Tawerga' and 'Tuareg' look and sound completely different in Arabic. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 23, 2011 |
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Oct 23, 2011 23:23
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Amused to Death posted:The rape aspect is still just speculation though. Or any connection to Gaddafi himself, for that matter. I know that news item, but I hope that GodlessCommie does actually have some more substantial information about it to support his claim that Gaddafi deserved a fate worse than being lynched by a mob.
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Oct 23, 2011 23:24
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az jan jananam posted:That sounds unlikely unless you have a source that says otherwise. 'Tawerga' and 'Tuareg' look and sound completely different in Arabic. I was incorrect. It means "Green Island" apparently.
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Oct 23, 2011 23:40
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Gaddafi was roughly manhandled, kicked, and called a dog. This is hardly brutal treatment. Besides, it's their revolution, the Libyans can do whatever they want and don't have to listen to people in other countries whining. While I personally feel empathy for Moammar, I don't feel sympathy. He had his chance to go out like a man and he chose the coward's way.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:09
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ZombieLenin posted:Sigh. Yes, yes Ghadaffi was the evil anti-American dictator who deserved to be shot in the head. Lets not talk about American backed dictators and terrorists, both past and present, who were just as hosed up and "evil." I don't understand the perspective that we can't be glad that one tyrannical prick got what he had coming to him just because others are still around, or that being glad that one is gone while others are around is hypocritical. Also, did you notice the joy here when Hosni Mubarak, a US client if there ever was one, was brought down in February?
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Oct 24, 2011 00:18
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Pon de Bundy posted:Gaddafi was roughly manhandled, kicked, and called a dog. This is hardly brutal treatment. WTF, did you want him fed into a wood chipper before you deign call it brutal? He was beaten then shot in the head! The argument is about whether people should condemn his brutal treatment, not whether it was actually brutal.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:20
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Pon de Bundy posted:Gaddafi was roughly manhandled, kicked, and called a dog. This is hardly brutal treatment. Did you not see the videos or...
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Oct 24, 2011 00:21
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YOURFRIEND posted:
How is a "peaceable arrest" possible when the guy was in an armed convoy? What exactly do you think gang members(and occasionally innocent bystanders) in Chicago or LA look like if they put up a fight against the cops "peaceably" arresting them? Taking control of a hostile person is ugly, and that's not even during the middle of an atrocity-laden war. If Qaddafi was going to go peacefully, he would have done it weeks or months ago, and everyone would have been much happier. You should have called him and let him know it was an option. VVVVVVVV Also, pouring water over the mouths and noses of blindfolded prisoners so that they have a continuous sensation of being drowned, for the benefit of our AMERIKA IS THE WURST contingent. VVVVVVV The X-man cometh fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 00:22
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annatar posted:WTF, did you want him fed into a wood chipper before you deign call it brutal? He was beaten then shot in the head! The argument is about whether people should condemn his brutal treatment, not whether it was actually brutal. Brutal is torture. Not getting dragged around a bit, slapped, and then supposedly shot. You know what would have been brutal? Dragging Gaddafi around tied to a truck until he died, or his intestines pulled out as he watched, or (insert any brutal act of torture here) not what he got. In terms of ways to go out, he got it rather easy for the monster that he was.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:40
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Supposedly he dug a hole in his face himself and poured strawberry jam on his face and upper torso. Supposedly there's still that fake-rear end hole in his corpse now. Supposedly.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:44
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Paradox Personified posted:Supposedly he dug a hole in his face himself and poured strawberry jam on his face and upper torso. Did you notice the ordering of that post? Supposedly shot comes last, because it has not yet been confirmed if he was actually executed or if that wound on his face was from the prior gunfire (or shrapnel!). Hell, he might have been beaten to death. It is all conjecture at this point. Don't be an idiot.
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Oct 24, 2011 00:48
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What about all of the suffering that Gaddafi's goons put every Libyan through? It's like all of these "the world is too civilized ah bloo bloo  " folks don't really understand how many people's lives this guy ruined.Hell, Gaddafi *himself* even said he would either remain dictator, or die trying. They fulfilled his own prophesy, even he himself saw that this one was one of only two possible outcomes. He was too arrogant and hosed up in the head to step-down peaceably and be tried in a rational, sane court of law. Instead, he decided to play the game he always has, of brutal murder and oppression because he's used to winning it -- and this time he lost. When you play Russian Roulette too long, eventually you're going to be due. I can practically guarantee that every one of those Misratans who were involved in this mob had lost at least one, if not several family members to the Gaddafi regime, to say nothing of lost lovelihood, jobs, education, etc. When you treat people, a whole country of people, like animals for nearly half a century, don't be surprised when they bite back. If you treat them like beasts, eventually they will internalize some of that behavior. If you, as a dictator, expect your nation to treat you kindly when you are deposed, then be a benevolent dictator, not a megalomaniac B-movie villain. (Note that I'm not saying that the Libyan people, as a whole, are animalistic, simply that this behavior has been prevalent throughout their culture so much over the past half-century, thanks to Gaddafi himself, that they cannot help but internalize it, the same way we Americans internalize our own nation's rhetoric and ideological insanities via our all pervasive TV and media. Living in a nation with a cult of personality built around a psychopathic individual, its easy to see how certain behaviors would be translated and disseminated down the social hierarchy.) RoboTiio fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 00:59
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And if he at least had showed some respect for rebels instead of calling them rats and not ramped up the brutality even more in attempting to crush the uprising then his chance of surviving would have been much better. If you don't show mercy or humanity to your opponents don't expect it in return.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:09
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LYE-OONS posted:Did you notice the ordering of that post? Supposedly shot comes last, because it has not yet been confirmed if he was actually executed or if that wound on his face was from the prior gunfire (or shrapnel!). Hell, he might have been beaten to death. It is all conjecture at this point. Don't be an idiot. Actually, according to CNN the autopsy confirmed he died of a bullet to the head. Unknown whether it was random gunfire or execution. What happened to Ghadaffi in Sirte is exactly what would have happened to Saddam if Kurds had gotten ahold of him. Actually, they might have tried to feed Saddam some Sarin first.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:41
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MA-Horus posted:Actually, according to CNN the autopsy confirmed he died of a bullet to the head. Unknown whether it was random gunfire or execution. Apparently I did not see the report of the autopsy, then. I apologize for my misinformation. Really does not change the fact that the response was spergy as gently caress, refusing to even address the point of my post.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:57
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Actually, edited this. Would not be wise to continue.
Paradox Personified fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 02:28
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etalian posted:And if he at least had showed some respect for rebels instead of calling them rats and not ramped up the brutality even more in attempting to crush the uprising then his chance of surviving would have been much better. What the Misratan grunts did to him is completely expected and even understandable to a certain extent. Most of them literally lost family during the battle. And some of them even tried to get him alive! Like their commander said, some of them wanted to get him alive, but things went outta control. Which is expected from what are basically armed civilians. We've already seen many times what having an unorganized guerrila army compromised of people who have taken arms means. We've already seen it on reports of rebel vigilantes and looting and pillaging by Misratan rebels.
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Oct 24, 2011 02:37
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Today must be a strange day for Ben Ali - on one hand, pissed his country is moving on without him, and on the other, grateful he didn't end up like Gaddhafi
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Oct 24, 2011 03:59
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Could anyone recommend sources to read about recent 40 years in Libya? I was looking around for information about what the situation in Libya was pre recent events to get the idea as to what were the reasons for the uprising, and found some facts (that may be outdated because I've just started to dig through the information): 1. Electricity for household use is free 2. interest-free loans 3. during the study, government give to every student 2 300 $/month 4. receives the average salary for this profession if you do not find a job after graduation, 5. the state has paid for to work in the profession, 6. every unemployed person receives social assistance 15,000 $/year, 7. for marriage state pays first apartment or house (150m2), 8. buying cars at factory prices, 9. LIBYA not owe anyone a cent, 10. free higher education abroad, 11. 25% of highly educated, 12. 40 loaves of bread costs $ 0.15, 13. water in the middle of the desert, drinking water, 14. 8 dinars per liter of oil (0.08 EUR), 15. 6% poor people, 16. for each infant, the couple received $ 5,000 for their needs. ed: And HDI in Libya was 0.76 according to http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/ 0.7 in Brazil and 0.66 in China and China has/had less developed social safety. That's confusing. ed: Golbez V Oh wow, someone went all 'mind-reading' via internet. That's a weird over-reaction. agrielaios fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 04:02
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el samayo grande posted:Today must be a strange day for Ben Ali - on one hand, pissed his country is moving on without him, and on the other, grateful he didn't end up like Gaddhafi Hah. If anything he probably still believes he could have held on if he hadn't been betrayed and now Tunisians are going to be under the iron heel of Islam until they beg him to come back. Never underestimate the power of authoritarian delusion.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:03
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MA-Horus posted:Actually, according to CNN the autopsy confirmed he died of a bullet to the head. Unknown whether it was random gunfire or execution. Horizontal celebratory gunfire?
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Oct 24, 2011 04:03
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It is entirely possible to both believe that Gaddafi being lynched out of hand was the wrong thing to do and also find it very difficult to actually care. I happen to be in that position.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:08
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When all is said and done, Gaddafi did implement a remarkable safety net, it is actually when he started to push for liberalization that things went haywire as unemployment soared. I don't see things in Libya getting better if the rebels don't work to rebuild and improve on that legacy, that or the rebels just turn on each other and Libya becomes a listless wreck of a country. Also, the video makes it really clear (in HD with HDR?!?) that Gaddafi was beaten and then executed by the rebels without even a summary trial. An eye for an eye.... makes everyone blind.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:10
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agrielaios posted:Could anyone recommend sources to read about recent 40 years in Libya? I was looking around for information about what the situation in Libya was pre recent events to get the idea as to what were the reasons for the uprising, and found some facts: Either the people of Libya were total idiots, or you've deliberately cherry picked your sources of information. Use the same google-fu you used to find the above and you'll easily discover why the revolution happened. In fact, to find all this first rather than second implies you aimed for it. So, you're either a troll who is joining in on the white knighting for fun, or you have no genuine desire to know why Gaddafi was bad and are joining in on the white knighting for ideological reasons. Either way, I can't picture this as a legitimate request for information.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:13
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Ardennes posted:When all is said and done, Gaddafi did implement a remarkable safety net, it is actually when he started to push for liberalization that things went haywire as unemployment soared. No he pretty much pursued the standard divide and conquer policy, people close his his tribe got reward while most of the country withered. For the military he had similar divide and conquer with some areas getting newer equipment while other less loyal,close areas being hardly better than militia. It's delusional to believe he was anything close to a benevolent dictator even for economic policy, it was just the class divide and conquer with the eastern areas getting dicked over the most.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:14
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