Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010


Fister Roboto posted:

If they were meant to keep humans in, they wouldn't have gates.

Because cattle pens are well known not to have gates, either.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

MajikMissile
Nov 13, 2012


Fister Roboto posted:

If they were meant to keep humans in, they wouldn't have gates.

...why not? It's have gates or build the walls around the humans, which hardly seems practical. And who ever this mysterious people farmer is, they'd likely want to retrieve the humans at some point. Or at very least keep their options open.

Chalupa Picada
Jan 13, 2009



I really think humanity being within the walls is incidental to whatever the walls happened to be built to protect.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

ArchangeI posted:

Because cattle pens are well known not to have gates, either.

Well, they don't have gates that the cattle are capable of opening.

Pensive
Oct 31, 2012


MeLKoR posted:

Oh c'mon, really? That's your argument? The walls are meant as defensive structures regardless of who built them.

Why do they need to be? We don't yet know who built the walls or why, and that short story in the last episode of the anime seems to imply that the "walls" may only be the top of a much larger structure or at the very least that there is far more more to them than just what we can see.

MajikMissile
Nov 13, 2012


Ytlaya posted:

Well, they don't have gates that the cattle are capable of opening.

True, though the mysterious people farmer might have assumed that the promise of a vicious chewing would be enough incentive to stay put and serve as the lock.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


Fister Roboto posted:

If they were meant to keep humans in, they wouldn't have gates.

The best cell doesn't require a locked door. There the prisoner is his own jailer.

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005





Gyges posted:

The best cell doesn't require a locked door. There the prisoner is his own jailer.

To go with this, the government is clearly In On It. The most competent soldiers are sent far away from the battlefield and those who ask questions about the outside world get disappeared or join the Scouts- which tend to get disappeared into a Titan.

eladank
Feb 22, 2013


Nelson Mandingo posted:

To go with this, the government is clearly In On It. The most competent soldiers are sent far away from the battlefield and those who ask questions about the outside world get disappeared or join the Scouts- which tend to get disappeared into a Titan.

except the most competent soldiers aren't sent anywhere - see Eren's class where eight out the top ten went to the scouting legion, and as far as I recall the manga never tells or implies that the government has a secret police rounding up people who ask about the outside world or that the scouting legion isn't purely voluntary.
if anything the government allocates an astounding amount of resources, manpower and backing to the scouts considering that prior to Annie's capture they didn't have any accomplishments, they didn't even had a plan or idea about how to get something done until Eren-titan came along.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


eladank posted:

except the most competent soldiers aren't sent anywhere - see Eren's class where eight out the top ten went to the scouting legion, and as far as I recall the manga never tells or implies that the government has a secret police rounding up people who ask about the outside world or that the scouting legion isn't purely voluntary.
if anything the government allocates an astounding amount of resources, manpower and backing to the scouts considering that prior to Annie's capture they didn't have any accomplishments, they didn't even had a plan or idea about how to get something done until Eren-titan came along.

The same system that keeps humanity within the walls pulls the best recruits away from the walls. The people who could best lead the break out/escape are the very people striving the hardest to accept the cage. Prestige is given to those closest to the center and furthest from the gates.

Eren's class is a complete anomaly anyway. No other class has sent essentially their entire class to the Scouting legion. The whole prize for ranking in the top 10 is your choice of post, which is almost always the Royal guard or along an inner wall.

Of those who joined the Scouting legion:
4 are Titans, one on rage fueled quest against all Titans and another on a love quest for another Scout recruit.
1 is the sister of a titan
1 is a virtuous suicide seeker banished from the innermost wall.
1 is the very sort of idealistic square peg the Scouting Legion is designed to remove from society.
1 is the only "normal" guy to join up in the top 10, and he's got a huge crush on the sister of a titan and has a frenemy relationship with her brother.
2 joined up because Eren gives really good insane, kill them all speeches. Also the Scouting Legion has the most access to the potato fields between Maria and Rose.


And then you've got the people who didn't join the Souts:
1 Titan infiltrator infiltrating as hard as possible.
Some dead guys.

Squidster
Oct 7, 2008

Life's just better with Ominous Gloves.


Tumblr harvest!

Man, when does the next issue drop? I'm jonesing.

















Mecca-Benghazi
Mar 31, 2012



There's nothing inherently wrong with giving your best the option to serve the king and keep peace or whatever. I mean, Marco was an all-around decent dude and honestly he struck me as better off in the interior anyway. The issue is one that Annie pointed out, that most people are people and will do the selfish thing. Jean was an rear end at the beginning of the series, but could you really blame him for wanting to go to the (new) interior? (I remind you guys that Trost was his home ) Or Sasha, whose family had been suffering from food shortages?

The system itself is pretty poo poo, but you can see how the system came to be in the first place. People are going to think that the MP is the greatest because it's filled with only the greatest, and honestly given the Survey Corps' survival rates, they're all a bit nuts. I doubt there's some kind of conspiracy attempting to discredit those who would like to leave the cage when the system perpetuates itself.

edit: I like that last one

Zeruel
Mar 27, 2010

mou owannai mou owannai
mou owannai mou owannai


The Hanji and Armin one should have Armin pulling the crazy face.

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005





eladank posted:

except the most competent soldiers aren't sent anywhere - see Eren's class where eight out the top ten went to the scouting legion, and as far as I recall the manga never tells or implies that the government has a secret police rounding up people who ask about the outside world or that the scouting legion isn't purely voluntary.
if anything the government allocates an astounding amount of resources, manpower and backing to the scouts considering that prior to Annie's capture they didn't have any accomplishments, they didn't even had a plan or idea about how to get something done until Eren-titan came along.

I realize it's an anime only thing, but the miner and his friend get disappeared for asking too many questions about the wall, and Armin would get bullied by kids for thinking of leaving the walls- meaning you're encouraged to teach your kids to stay in the walls where it's safe.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


Eren and Armin were both picked on for talking about outside the wall. Which means it's got to be a pretty deeply ingrained thing if the other kids are going to pick on a crazy fucker like Eren. Especially with guardian angel Mikasa just around the corner.

Also Armin had a book about the outside that he borrowed from his grandfather, or maybe his dad, which was contraband. Wanting to have nothing at all to do with the outside is actively cultivated in this society, and the Scouting Legion is where they stick the people whose hopes they can't beat down.

threeagainstfour
Jun 27, 2005




The only theory that makes sense to me is the theory that ape titan and his faction are harvesting the people in the city and turning them into titans as weapons of war. They check out for long periods of time between each harvest, which is why the ape titan found the 3D movement gear so interesting, as it must be an invention that is unique to this harvest. There may even be more than one of these city states all around the globe as the hordes of titans from the south must come from somewhere. The need to keep people in the city probably has more to do with their being a bunch of these walled city states and the need for them not to discover they exist. Each farm needs to believe they are the last of humanity.

The shifter faction intended to bring down the walls to ruin the harvest before ape titan and his faction could get to it. They changed their minds when Eren presented itself and decided the situation was worth further inquiry. The central government is in on the harvest, my not even be human beings, and rides out the resulting chaos behind the 3rd wall every harvest.

So that just leaves the mysteries of how the ape faction and the shifter factions came to be the last two real powers in the world, the basement, and what's up with Eren's dad.

threeagainstfour fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Oct 25, 2013

eladank
Feb 22, 2013


Gyges posted:

Eren and Armin were both picked on for talking about outside the wall. Which means it's got to be a pretty deeply ingrained thing if the other kids are going to pick on a crazy fucker like Eren. Especially with guardian angel Mikasa just around the corner.

Also Armin had a book about the outside that he borrowed from his grandfather, or maybe his dad, which was contraband. Wanting to have nothing at all to do with the outside is actively cultivated in this society, and the Scouting Legion is where they stick the people whose hopes they can't beat down.

yes but that is society, not the government.
of course it's going to be deeply ingrained that going outside the walls is stupid, as far as anyone knows doing that is literally suicide and just about every parent is going to teach their kid that only suicidal idiots join the scouting legion.
and again sticking people indicates that people are forced to join the scouting legion which is just not true, as the scouting legion is purely voluntary.

note that I don't claim that society as a whole in the walled city is supportive of people wanting leave the walls, it clearly isn't. I'm just saying that as far as we know that's not a result of some government conspiracy.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


The government doesn't have to manually manipulate every action. It just has to help guide the society and then reinforce actions that work towards its goals. Who wants to join the Scouting Legion? Misfits who don't fit in with the society. Prior to the fall of wall Maria, the scouting legion was barely funded and subsequently forays outside the wall would decimate the legion. When returning, the maimed legion served as a grand example of what happens when you leave the walls. That then reinforced the attitude that going outside the walls was stupid and drove down recruitment, which further decreased the ability of the legion, which ensures next time they come back even more ragged.

The only thing that the government needs to do to continue the lesson is to make sure the Scouting Legion isn't properly funded and equipped. Once you've got your society set up, its fairly easy for an autocratic regime to use well disguised carrots and sticks to maintain the set order. The government itself doesn't even need to be actively involved if the society is properly founded in the beginning. Especially when the near extinction of humanity by monsters is what drove the creation. Just a few tweeks to reinforce and encourage some fear here, some obstacles to retard curiosity and retaliation there.

Ataru13
Jul 28, 2005

...Packing Space-Age Shit!


threeagainstfour posted:

The only theory that makes sense to me is the theory that ape titan and his faction are harvesting the people in the city and turning them into titans as weapons of war. They check out for long periods of time between each harvest, which is why the ape titan found the 3D movement gear so interesting, as it must be an invention that is unique to this harvest.

I swear to god if this series ends with some little kid forcing Eren to choose between destroying the titans, controlling the titans, or merging with the titans I am done with all fiction forever.

Neowyrm
Dec 23, 2011

It's not like I pack a lunch box full of missiles when I go to work!

Ataru13 posted:

I swear to god if this series ends with some little kid forcing Eren to choose between destroying the titans, controlling the titans, or merging with the titans I am done with all fiction forever.

I didn't know Bioware was involved!

Soulcleaver
Sep 25, 2007

Murderer

Uh... no. Lots of innocent folks get eaten by titans/hosed over by their fellow man. Successful rescues are kind of a rare thing, aren't they?

Squidster
Oct 7, 2008

Life's just better with Ominous Gloves.


Soulcleaver posted:

Uh... no. Lots of innocent folks get eaten by titans/hosed over by their fellow man. Successful rescues are kind of a rare thing, aren't they?
The original quote is from Sasha, speaking to a kid who had just watched their mother be eaten and was abandoned to die. It's the kind of good-hearted but dumb thing that Sasha desperately wants to believe.

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917


Squidster posted:

The original quote is from Sasha, speaking to a kid who had just watched their mother be eaten and was abandoned to die. It's the kind of good-hearted but dumb thing that Sasha desperately wants to believe.

And then it happened!

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008



Buglord

"There will be people who come to your rescue and then get squished or eaten thus inflicting upon you intense emotional anguish and guilt" doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?


Crunchyroll starting new digital manga simulpub service, to incude Attack on Titan

Rumors are that AoT will be same-day releasing in English on Crunchyroll Manga as early as February.

Elotana
Dec 12, 2003

and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

Hahahaha gently caress you lovely scanlators, go back to remedial English

I Am Fowl
Mar 8, 2008

nononononono


Elotana posted:

Hahahaha gently caress you lovely scanlators, go back to remedial English

For this exact reason, I'd go for a crunchy if their reader is even half-decent and the scans came out a week after everyone else's. It's like they just feed it into google translate sometimes, but that can't be it, because of all the goddamn spelling errors, and google translate has better grammar.

eladank
Feb 22, 2013


Gyges posted:

Prior to the fall of wall Maria, the scouting legion was barely funded and subsequently forays outside the wall would decimate the legion. When returning, the maimed legion served as a grand example of what happens when you leave the walls. That then reinforced the attitude that going outside the walls was stupid and drove down recruitment, which further decreased the ability of the legion, which ensures next time they come back even more ragged.

The only thing that the government needs to do to continue the lesson is to make sure the Scouting Legion isn't properly funded and equipped. Once you've got your society set up, its fairly easy for an autocratic regime to use well disguised carrots and sticks to maintain the set order. The government itself doesn't even need to be actively involved if the society is properly founded in the beginning. Especially when the near extinction of humanity by monsters is what drove the creation. Just a few tweeks to reinforce and encourage some fear here, some obstacles to retard curiosity and retaliation there.
where did you get the idea that the scouting legion was barely funded from? even from the little we saw before the fall of wall maria they had horses and 3d gear as well as supply wagons,
and in current time we see that they get pretty much anything they want including keeping living feral titans inside the reclaimed Trost and the titan trap they used on Annie.
what other supplies do you think the government could give to the scouting legion that would make forays outside less devastating?
for that matter if the government is against the scouting legion looking good why didn't they take Erwin out of the picture when he is the stated reason for why modern forays outside are less devastating then before?

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


Since the fall of Maria the Scouting Legion has been getting funding. That's because the king probably didn't want to lose a wall and hundreds of thousands of people and would rather like to get that land back. Also Erwin wasn't in charge until after Maria fell.

Prior to that though there was talk about how the Scouting Legion was a waste of resources. The fact that casualty rates seem to have gone down despite building an infrastructure designed to help retake wall Maria seems to indicate that the Scouting Legion is being run differently than before the fall of the wall.

eladank
Feb 22, 2013


Gyges posted:

Since the fall of Maria the Scouting Legion has been getting funding.

that's the second time you said that, I'm asking where did you get that idea from?
I don't remember it stated in the manga that they had their funding increased like it was stated for the wall guard, and from what we saw they seem to go with the same gear like they did before the fall of Maria, unlike the wall guard which got the moving cannons, trenches ,etc.

Gyges posted:

The fact that casualty rates seem to have gone down despite building an infrastructure designed to help retake wall Maria seems to indicate that the Scouting Legion is being run differently than before the fall of the wall.

Gyges posted:

Also Erwin wasn't in charge until after Maria fell.

which is exactly my point, Erwin getting in charge is the reason for the drop in casualty rate, not a change in support from the Government.
also they haven't built an infrastructure to retake wall Maria, as prior to Trost no one (including Erwin and the scouting legion) had any idea about how to even start on doing that.

Pensive
Oct 31, 2012


eladank posted:

also they haven't built an infrastructure to retake wall Maria, as prior to Trost no one (including Erwin and the scouting legion) had any idea about how to even start on doing that.

They hadn't finished it, but that is what they had spent the last 5 years doing before the attack on Trost. They had been gradually building up a supply line between Trost and Shinganshina with the intention of eventually plugging the hole in the outermost wall, then slowly killing off all of the remaining titans now that no new ones where moving in.

eladank
Feb 22, 2013


I just checked and you guys are right about the supply line to Maria, however it is also stated the increased survival rate is due to Erwin new strategies (here) so my original point stands, the scouting legion high death rate in the past is not due to some government conspiracy.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

After looking back over the pages following the one eladank just linked, I was reminded of this scene: http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/10/25 I like how they show the fact that he is willing to completely ignore the blood on the guy's hand and say something to make him feel better as he dies, even if he acts like an OCD aloof badass most of the time.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Oct 28, 2013

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


The anime even had the camera focus on Levi's face, with his eyes shadowed. Levi clearly doesn't like the idea of touching the guys hand. And it's not like Petra was going to respect him less, and there was no one around to witness how noble Levi was.

But Levi still has enough care that he was willing to sully himself to give a dying man his last wish.

flowinprose
Sep 11, 2001

Where were you? .... when they built that ladder to heaven...

Just noticed in the anime that as Reiner picks up Armin and runs off (after being "caught" by Annie's titan and carving the message about where Eren is located), as he is carrying Armin away his injuries heal and he lets off the steam that titans do when they regenerate. It's only for about half a second, but it's there. (Episode 17)

AdjectiveNoun
Oct 11, 2012

Everything. Is. Fine.


flowinprose posted:

Just noticed in the anime that as Reiner picks up Armin and runs off (after being "caught" by Annie's titan and carving the message about where Eren is located), as he is carrying Armin away his injuries heal and he lets off the steam that titans do when they regenerate. It's only for about half a second, but it's there. (Episode 17)

I honestly don't see it as unambiguously being him healing, rather than just the titan blood from Annie's chopped fingers steaming off of him. See also, all the blood steaming off Mikasa and Levi after their fight against her.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Yeah, human titans heal quicker and better than normal humans, but not that fast and they don't shoot steam out while they do it. I'm almost certain that was intended to be Annie's blood evaporating.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Yeah, I too screencaps of that moment in the anime thread, and between that and everyone else screaming that that Reiner was a titan, I took that to be the holy grail. In hindsight it wasn't that convincing, we definitely saw steaming blood coming off Mikasa, and that blood was Annie's. So there was no way to tell if Reiner's steam came from his own injuries or Annie's damaged hand is unclear.

Actually, what was alot more convincing in that scene was Reiner's escape. Annie went very gentle on him, unlike earlier scenes, she barely moved around, and basically let Reiner get away for no reason, when if she really wanted to kill Reiner she could have grabbed him with her other hand.

flowinprose
Sep 11, 2001

Where were you? .... when they built that ladder to heaven...

Yeah after reviewing more clips of the fighting and seeing the steaming blood on several people, I will retract my statement about that being evidence for Reiner being a titan. Reiner's insistence on figuring out where Eren was in the formation and his easy escape from Annie when almost everyone else was immediately destroyed are bigger clues.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ETB
Nov 8, 2009

Yeah, I'm that guy.


After catching up on the manga, I feel like this will be like Battlestar Galactica. Who's the Titan this season?!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply