Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Gantolandon posted:

This would be weird, because Eren hadn't had the Attack Titan yet.

He didn't have it yet either when he had the 'See you later, Eren' dream at the very beginning of the series yet everyone seems to think that is memories from the future, the anime even doubled down on it by previewing the titans rushing the walls.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Elijah Snow
Dec 10, 2006

some-something man

iamsosmrt posted:

Not that I expect this to enter the plot, but technically anyone who's ever held the Attack Titan before or even after Eren could have influenced his or his father's actions at any point of the story. It could very well come out that the will of the first Attack Titan has a similar control or manipulation like the king in the royal family/Founding Titan.

No. As far as I understand it, only Eren has unlocked this hidden ability. The Attack Titan has been MIA since ever, so no real chance of buddying up with a royal blood, go into sand dreamscape, subvert deals etc. Either Eren did it all, or he only knows as much as he showed Zeke. But I got the idea that the will of the Attack Titan IS Eren's, and has always been going forward to reach this specific point in its plan.

Schubalts
Nov 25, 2007

People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.


Gantolandon posted:

This would be weird, because Eren hadn't had the Attack Titan yet.

In the Memory Trip, baby Eren was able to see adult Eren and Zeke, at least hazily like Grisha could.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008



Buglord

I liked the panel of Mikasa enjoying ice cream :shobon:

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



Elijah Snow posted:

No. As far as I understand it, only Eren has unlocked this hidden ability. The Attack Titan has been MIA since ever, so no real chance of buddying up with a royal blood, go into sand dreamscape, subvert deals etc. Either Eren did it all, or he only knows as much as he showed Zeke. But I got the idea that the will of the Attack Titan IS Eren's, and has always been going forward to reach this specific point in its plan.

Did they give a specific history of the Attack Titan? I assumed it's always existed in someone regardless of whether the Eldians recorded its history. I'll have to re-read the story from the start at some point.

Captain_duck
Dec 3, 2005

I swear nice bushes!

iamsosmrt posted:

Not that I expect this to enter the plot, but technically anyone who's ever held the Attack Titan before or even after Eren could have influenced his or his father's actions at any point of the story. It could very well come out that the will of the first Attack Titan has a similar control or manipulation like the king in the royal family/Founding Titan.

Remember when Eren was like "your being controlled by the titans memories" to Armin? I feel like that was a case of him projecting and it was basicly Eren saying that he was being controlled by the memories.

But then there also the time travel fuckery where Eren saw everything so no idea how it all mixes up.

Teriyaki Koinku
Nov 25, 2008



I haven't checked in for several months now since Zeke was trying to reach/make physical contact with Eren, is the Rumbling finally happening? The last time I checked in before that, Eren was slaughtering people in Marley as a Titan so I'm feeling lost in the current narrative. How close is the manga to the end now?

Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Nov 11, 2019

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


The manga is on its last stretch, maybe 3 ~ 11 chapters left.

Eren has unlocked the full power of the Founding Titan.

Teriyaki Koinku
Nov 25, 2008



Conspiratiorist posted:

The manga is on its last stretch, maybe 3 ~ 11 chapters left.

Eren has unlocked the full power of the Founding Titan.

Yowza! :eyepop: I was planning on marathoning this manga once it got close to the end or finished as opposed to waiting month-to-month, just checking in occasionally for interesting tidbits like the Beast Titan speaking, the basement reveal, the Marley/Paradise injection pits (which was really hosed up imo), etc

I guess now's the time, huh?

Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Nov 11, 2019

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Yes, jump in rather than repeatedly asking if you should jump in, now is as good a time as any

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Now is really your last chance to jump in. In a few months you'll be reading a finished series.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Right now, all I want for the ending is for the Rumbling to be successful, Armin and Mikasa to gently caress off, Eren to hook up with Historia, and the final panel being Eren holding his and Historia's daughter, whom they have named Ymir.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



I don't even know what I want, but I have faith that it's going to be good and :vince: mind blowing. This series hasn't failed me since the beginning, which is unprecedented in my manga experience. It'll be the first I re-read.

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Yah post timeskip really delivered. The finale is gonna be great. Isayama clearly put a gently caress ton of work into the storyline before he started drawing.

ETURNA
Jul 3, 2006

Narayan


Fister Roboto posted:

I liked the panel of Mikasa enjoying ice cream :shobon:

Same. Happiest we've seen her in a long time. :unsmith:

Elijah Snow
Dec 10, 2006

some-something man

iamsosmrt posted:

Did they give a specific history of the Attack Titan? I assumed it's always existed in someone regardless of whether the Eldians recorded its history. I'll have to re-read the story from the start at some point.

The specific history is that it was never caught, never there. If at any point in the past it had cooperated with the founding titan maybe they would have found these new abilities, but it never happened or the current hosts would have known.
It seems to be a sliver of GET FREE ideology that Ymir suppressed in herself and planted in the world for her future self.
It could also be all of the explanations because none of them are exclusive to each other, we don't really know the depths of Eren's knowledge regarding this. Not like it matters because that's not what the story is about anyway.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Some random things I spotted after watching the anime again.

1. The Attack Titan is the only one that explitly causes memory loss in its inheritors, to the point when each successive inheritors warns their descendant about it. No other titans does this (the Founding Titan rewrites its users personality instead).
2. Eren's vision at the beginning is most probably a software update, because he nearly immediately starts to rage about humanity not being prepared enough for the titans. It's probably not his first one – I suspect he got outside help with finding and dispatching the bandits.
3. When in his berserk mode during the last fight with Annie, he starts to scream about "destroying the world", which seems completely out of character – but he's trying to do exactly that right now.
4. Kruger is infected with his memories so much, that he not only speaks like future Eren, but even namedrops Mikasa and Armin. Later, Grisha pretty much drags his son to Ackermanns' homestead, no doubt remembering their daughter was the one mentioned by the previous Attack Titan holder.

It really seems like Eren is projecting when telling Mikasa he hates her for being a slave. Not only he gets half of the manga spoilered after touching Historia at the end of the Return to Shiganshina arc – he seems to have been prepared for this role long before that, to the point where it's hard to be sure where Eren Yeager ends and the Attack Titan begins. I don't think any character in the entire anime has less free will than him.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Gantolandon posted:

Some random things I spotted after watching the anime again.

It really seems like Eren is projecting when telling Mikasa he hates her for being a slave. Not only he gets half of the manga spoilered after touching Historia at the end of the Return to Shiganshina arc – he seems to have been prepared for this role long before that, to the point where it's hard to be sure where Eren Yeager ends and the Attack Titan begins. I don't think any character in the entire anime has less free will than him.

Yeah, I mentioned that three pages ago, how he is the character with less freedom, ironic. In a way that would explain his obsession with freedom...

Kerning Chameleon
Apr 8, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 3884 days!


Nah, the Attack Titan has always been Eren, not the other way around. He made the prior holders slaves to his will; the Attack Titan's directive for freedom was always his own.

He is the only truly Free Man in a world of slaves, and thus is the heroic Ubermensch for trying to destroy such a rotten society. His enemies (and, in fact, many of his hypocritical so-called allies) have been nothing but Last Men ultimately trying to perpetuate the immoral system in one way or another. He can only be defeated by someone who also wishes to destroy that global society (Armin or Historia).

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.



Yeah I don’t think he’s so much a slave to predestination but instead sees that his plan will work, so he chooses to put it into action with knowledge of the future.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Kerning Chameleon posted:

Nah, the Attack Titan has always been Eren, not the other way around. He made the prior holders slaves to his will; the Attack Titan's directive for freedom was always his own.

He is the only truly Free Man in a world of slaves, and thus is the heroic Ubermensch for trying to destroy such a rotten society. His enemies (and, in fact, many of his hypocritical so-called allies) have been nothing but Last Men ultimately trying to perpetuate the immoral system in one way or another. He can only be defeated by someone who also wishes to destroy that global society (Armin or Historia).

I don't buy it. Armin calls Eren a slave after getting beaten up by him. It's not a very crafty insult – pretty much "no u" – but it made him extremely angry.

Besides, his own logic doesn't add up. He accuses Armin of not being himself because inheriting memories (and his love for Annie) from Berthold. He himself holds memories of at least five different people: Grisha, Frieda Reiss, the Warhammer Titan holder, his future self and Ymir Fritz. The old Eren was pretty much gone as soon as he kissed Historia's hand and it wasn't even the start of it; his earliest memory update we know about happened hours before the fall of Shiganshina ("See you later, Eren" in manga and the weird vision in anime). Maybe even earlier, given that the baby Eren reacts to his older self in the memory.

Edit: Also – Eren as an Ubermensch is a theory that was raised in the anime and explicitly stated as wrong. Keith Shadis was a staunch believer in Great People who change the world and the sheep that can only follow them. After realizing he's not special enough to lead the Survey Corps, he gave up the command to Erwin and became an instructor, most likely to find his Chosen One and at least be the one who shapes them. He admits to having sabotaged Eren's 3D Maneuvering Gear, just because he thought Grisha's son is not special enough – then realizes he was wrong when, despite the setback, Eren manages not to topple for a while.

Shadis' worldview is rejected by three different characters. Eren tells him he doesn't consider himself special, just a right person in the right place. Carla straight out states that for her it doesn't matter; her son is special enough because he was born to this world. Hange considers her former commander a coward who found a convenient excuse to run away from his failures.

Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 18, 2019

Kerning Chameleon
Apr 8, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 3884 days!


Gantolandon posted:

Besides, his own logic doesn't add up. He accuses Armin of not being himself because inheriting memories (and his love for Annie) from Berthold. He himself holds memories of at least five different people: Grisha, Frieda Reiss, the Warhammer Titan holder, his future self and Ymir Fritz. The old Eren was pretty much gone as soon as he kissed Historia's hand and it wasn't even the start of it; his earliest memory update we know about happened hours before the fall of Shiganshina ("See you later, Eren" in manga and the weird vision in anime). Maybe even earlier, given that the baby Eren reacts to his older self in the memory.

So? He just had a moment of revelation, specifically "holy poo poo, I was right all along and we really do need to genocide them all and I'm gonna be the one to do it." He wasn't "gone", it's just a lot to take in all at once, and even over the course of four years. I think he handled it pretty well, all told.

quote:

Shadis' worldview is rejected by three different characters. Eren tells him he doesn't consider himself special, just a right person in the right place. Carla straight out states that for her it doesn't matter; her son is special enough because he was born to this world. Hange considers her former commander a coward who found a convenient excuse to run away from his failures.

And all three of those people were wrong in the end. Eren shouldn't have doubted himself, he really was the special chosen one to save the world from itself (I feel his real character arc is him realizing his friends are idealistic idiots holding him back, and the strength of his will matched with his determination to see his ideals through to the end is the real power he needed all along). Carla was wrong because Eren's father specifically bore him to bear the Attack Titan (as it turns out due to Eren's will itself, so really Eren is the Chosen One because he chose himself). Hange was revealed this last arc to be just as much a hypocritical cowardly commander as Shadis, and listening to their's and Armin's and their wishy-washy pacifism rather than do the needful would have definitely doomed Paradis to extermination at the hands of Marley, not to mention their willingness to perpetuate the brood mare system to keep control of the Titan Powers .

Kerning Chameleon fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 19, 2019

Farg
Nov 19, 2013



genocide guy probably isnt the good guy and will get beat up

Kerning Chameleon
Apr 8, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 3884 days!


Farg posted:

genocide guy probably isnt the good guy and will get beat up

As much as I would love for this to be true and have Eren go out like anime Walter White, this probably is all According to Keikaku or will end in Talk no Jutsu bullshit or something. :(

I just want to savor this glorious moment while it lasts.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

I wonder what crazy rear end poo poo Erwin would have had to say about all this

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Really hard to say. He was the most ruthless of them all, but it's possible he'd have preferred to sacrifice Historia and multiple generations of her descendants to maintain the deterrent than genociding the globe.

What's for sure is that the Jaegerists wouldn't have taken over under his watch.

Kerning Chameleon
Apr 8, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 3884 days!


Yeah, I think we can all agree with Hange that they absolutely screwed the pooch on all this.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Kerning Chameleon posted:

So? He just had a moment of revelation, specifically "holy poo poo, I was right all along and we really do need to genocide them all and I'm gonna be the one to do it." He wasn't "gone", it's just a lot to take in all at once, and even over the course of four years. I think he handled it pretty well, all told.

Not really. He even implies that Ymir Fritz specifically tasked him with freeing her. "You've been waiting for me 2000 years".

quote:

And all three of those people were wrong in the end. Eren shouldn't have doubted himself, he really was the special chosen one to save the world from itself (I feel his real character arc is him realizing his friends are idealistic idiots holding him back, and the strength of his will matched with his determination to see his ideals through to the end is the real power he needed all along).

There were no realization. He desperately tried to find another way, but everything happened exactly as his earlier memories showed him (to the point where he could predict exactly where his friends show up to cock block him). He even tried to find a pretext to not go with the Rumbling, but Mikasa chickened out in the crucial moment and the opportunity was gone.

quote:

Carla was wrong because Eren's father specifically bore him to bear the Attack Titan (as it turns out due to Eren's will itself, so really Eren is the Chosen One because he chose himself).

Carla's stance was that you don't have to be special to matter, you just have to be born. Which is a philosophy that Eren adopted completely – "because I was born to this world" is something that he tells pretty much everyone who asks him to defend his actions. Most recently to Zeke.

quote:

Hange was revealed this last arc to be just as much a hypocritical cowardly commander as Shadis

Shadis wasn't hipocritical, he just took his philosophy to its logical conclusion. After realizing he is not special, he gave up the Scouts to someone who (in his opinion) was, and hosed off to find his Chosen One.

I don't also get how Hange is hipocritical. They were never into "sacrifice everything for humanity" worldview that Erwin spouted, their thing was knowledge about titans.

quote:

, and listening to their's and Armin's and their wishy-washy pacifism rather than do the needful would have definitely doomed Paradis to extermination at the hands of Marley, not to mention their willingness to perpetuate the brood mare system to keep control of the Titan Powers .

Eren never even gave them a choice. He never told them that he intends to initiate a full Rumbling. The limited one along with the brood mare system is the only solution that Zeke put on the table and they jumped on it, because they thought to be out of options. Hange would have opposed extermination of humanity beyond the walls, but Zackley would probably accept it "with a heavy heart".

Super Rad posted:

I wonder what crazy rear end poo poo Erwin would have had to say about all this

Erwin would be useless, that's why Levi didn't give him the serum. The only thing that let him be the heartless bastard was proving that his father was right. He lived with enormous guilt and giving up his life was the only choice for him not to feel like a massive hipocrite.

Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Nov 19, 2019

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Why do people bother replying to KC?

ED: Thanks mod.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Gantolandon posted:

I don't also get how Hange is hipocritical. They were never into "sacrifice everything for humanity" worldview that Erwin spouted, their thing was knowledge about titans.

They? I also dont see why she would be be hypocritical

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Elias_Maluco posted:

They? I also dont see why she would be be hypocritical

Hange's gender in the manga is very ambiguous.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Gantolandon posted:

Hange's gender in the manga is very ambiguous.

Huh, I never noticed any ambiguity

Watermelon Daiquiri
Jul 10, 2010




Huh? Hange was always immediately coded as female to me, though that might be because I started with the anime so that characterization followed into my reading the manga.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Watermelon Daiquiri posted:

Huh? Hange was always immediately coded as female to me, though that might be because I started with the anime so that characterization followed into my reading the manga.

I never watched the anime and for me Hange was always obvsiously a woman

But if even the author says its supposed to be ambiguous, I guess it is

Or maybe it was just that some fans for some reason though it was and he decided to play along, which is cool too

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Yeah it's not that Isayama is making Hange being non-binary A Thing, but that the combination of her androgynous looks and personality is supposed to leave characters wondering - yet it's a question whose answer is ultimately irrelevant. His take is a tongue-in-cheek "Hange is Hange".

Like, reminder this is also the author that had Armin masquerade as a girl and get molested as a gag. Don't be disappointed if in the epilogue she has 3 kids with Onyankopon or whatever.

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


Maybe it's been a while but I don't remember reading Armin getting molested as a gag. It certainly wasn't portrayed that way in the anime.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


It definitely wasn't a gag

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



If you found it funny then maybe you are the problem cause it sure wasn't a gag

Peacoffee
Feb 11, 2013




It is portrayed as molestation and traumatizing and was hard to read/watch in my opinion.

As for Hange...I dunno...You could read “she” into it by cataloguing the “evidence” as such, but that kinda gets at the heart of why framing everything by binary genders is lazy thinking. It would be easier to write an ambiguous character than an explicitly tokenized one if you already had a less binary approach. It would be, as they say, only natural.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Given that Hange's gender is ambiguous out in manga, it's perfectly acceptable to use "she". I used "they", because I frequently talk to people who are very passionate about LGBT+ issues and would most likely correct me if they only knew what this amine is about.

But there is one more reason to use "they". Isayama obviously took a lot from Norse mythology and Hange is definitely based on Odin, down to the eye lost in a well, obsession about knowledge and replacing a one-handed individual as the head of the pantheon. And Odin's gender was a bit of a mystery, with his shapeshifting and magic that in this culture only women could use.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply