Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Eej posted:

Outside of the part where it involves using mental coersion over an immortal slave woman to neuter her people, maybe we

It does however mean you are putting the punishment on the oppressed people and sacrificing them for the oppressor's sake

Not that I'm necessarily defending Zeke's plan here but Ymir's backstory pretty much unequivocally showed us that no group in all of AoT has exclusive rights over the labels of 'oppressed' and 'oppressor' - the Eldians and Marleyans were bronze aged tribes when Eldians lucked into a obedient slave with the military equivalent of nukes in her blood and then oppressed the entire world for some millennia. With all of that in mind Zeke's plan to end the nuke blood doesn't really seem all that awful. Likewise Ymir is both an eternal victim and victimizer, entirely deserving of pity but possibly also some scorn (we've been shown that she has at least some degree of free will and yet it took 2000 years for her to do anything on her own).

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Eren's is the best becomes he kicked it off by telling a 2,000 year old slave ghost that she is a person and that she can stop now.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Eej posted:

Outside of the part where it involves using mental coersion over an immortal slave woman to neuter her people, maybe we

It does however mean you are putting the punishment on the oppressed people and sacrificing them for the oppressor's sake

The manga goes out of its way to show that Eren is murdering oppressed helpless children to achieve his goal. You're not really getting out of this situation without oppressed people being being sacrificed. Eren has just openly decided that he is willing to sacrifice those people for his own.

I feel like trying to frame Zeke as "the bad one" ignores that there is no good one in this situation. Zeke's decision was the one that in the long run had the fewest deaths but depended on an awful situation being maintained and the sacrifice of a lot of people. Eren's decision is the mass destruction of pretty much every living being (because most animals sure as gently caress ain't gonna survive the Rumbling) on the planet except for a small group of people. Both are loving monstrous decisions and it says a lot about both characters that they were willing to do them.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 9, 2020

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Eej posted:

Outside of the part where it involves using mental coersion over an immortal slave woman to neuter her people, maybe we

It does however mean you are putting the punishment on the oppressed people and sacrificing them for the oppressor's sake

Zeke's plan is interesting in that it's the plan that kills the fewest people of the options known so far on the one end, so people can think of it as "the best" plan morally. But at the same time, it's the plan that's the least in keeping with the overall morals of the series.

Eren's catchphrase is "Because I was born into this world", something passed down from his mother (one of the few real innocents in the manga), and it's one of the guiding principles of the whole story. Even if life is cruel, painful, and short, the mere fact of being born is an inherent good. Zeke's antinatalist philosophy is thus opposed to the heart of the story.

(Eren also views his plan as a necessary evil, while Zeke views his plan as a good.)

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



chiasaur11 posted:

Zeke's plan is interesting in that it's the plan that kills the fewest people of the options known so far on the one end, so people can think of it as "the best" plan morally. But at the same time, it's the plan that's the least in keeping with the overall morals of the series.

Eren's catchphrase is "Because I was born into this world", something passed down from his mother (one of the few real innocents in the manga), and it's one of the guiding principles of the whole story. Even if life is cruel, painful, and short, the mere fact of being born is an inherent good. Zeke's antinatalist philosophy is thus opposed to the heart of the story.

(Eren also views his plan as a necessary evil, while Zeke views his plan as a good.)

I don't think that's entirely right.

Both Eren *and* Zeke have become what the series calls bad.

Eren has taken on the Colossal Titan's role from the start of the series, just multiplied. (It's not really a coincidence that The Rumbling is nothing but Colossal Titans.) But we know now that the Colossal Titan was the embodiment of a trapped and helpless person who felt they had no other choice because of the way the world was. Eren has been struggling against the idea of being caged (be it by the walls or by the precognitive fate) but there's a stark contrast to what we see of Eren versus what we're presented as imagery. His Titan form now is effectively a giant cage in multiple senses of the word. He hasn't become free, he's effective accepted being caged himself because he thinks there is no way for him to escape. Even as he frees Ymir he cages himself.

Eren is doing what he feels is right and what he feels is necessary but at the end of the day he is doing so by caging himself and by repeating the tragedy that so formed his mindset on a worldwide scale.

Zeke is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to people. Eren is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to himself. This is also why the final conflict is shaping up to be the people closest to Eren in the world saying he isn't acting like himself because if there is one thing Eren has not done it is deny his own desires for freedom. Mikasa and Armin are most likely going to resolve the conflict not by killing Eren but by *freeing* Eren. Because right now the person most trapped in the world, even if he himself doesn't feel it, is Eren.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Super Rad posted:

Not that I'm necessarily defending Zeke's plan here but Ymir's backstory pretty much unequivocally showed us that no group in all of AoT has exclusive rights over the labels of 'oppressed' and 'oppressor' - the Eldians and Marleyans were bronze aged tribes when Eldians lucked into a obedient slave with the military equivalent of nukes in her blood and then oppressed the entire world for some millennia. With all of that in mind Zeke's plan to end the nuke blood doesn't really seem all that awful. Likewise Ymir is both an eternal victim and victimizer, entirely deserving of pity but possibly also some scorn (we've been shown that she has at least some degree of free will and yet it took 2000 years for her to do anything on her own).

I don't think this is the case. My take on that situation, and I believe Eren's as well, was that the Subjects of Ymir have been doomed from the get-go. Our problem in understanding this comes with how "Eldian" and "Subject of Ymir" have become synonymous in the 2000 years since.
Ymir was a slave and concubine of a conquering king from a different race entirely. She was abused to the point of internalizing her own subservience, and was willing to carry out horrible actions - not in her interest, not for the sake of her people, but for the sake of her oppressors. Sound familiar? It's what Reiner and Annie did, but on an even greater scale and even more pitiful circumstances. How much of a moral agent can she and her enslaved brethren be in this regard, even if they were used as weapons?
I believe Eren saw this and realized "Oh, gently caress, there was literally never a time when the Subjects of Ymir weren't being oppressed by SOMEONE, and the blame always comes back to them (see: the pig situation). So gently caress everyone else!"

Eren and Zeke have two opposite solutions to this problem - neither of which are entirely rooted in the material reality of the Subject of Ymirs' plight, but in their respective childhood traumas. Both are wrong and both are villains.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





ImpAtom posted:

I don't think that's entirely right.

Both Eren *and* Zeke have become what the series calls bad.

Eren has taken on the Colossal Titan's role from the start of the series, just multiplied. (It's not really a coincidence that The Rumbling is nothing but Colossal Titans.) But we know now that the Colossal Titan was the embodiment of a trapped and helpless person who felt they had no other choice because of the way the world was. Eren has been struggling against the idea of being caged (be it by the walls or by the precognitive fate) but there's a stark contrast to what we see of Eren versus what we're presented as imagery. His Titan form now is effectively a giant cage in multiple senses of the word. He hasn't become free, he's effective accepted being caged himself because he thinks there is no way for him to escape. Even as he frees Ymir he cages himself.

Eren is doing what he feels is right and what he feels is necessary but at the end of the day he is doing so by caging himself and by repeating the tragedy that so formed his mindset on a worldwide scale.

Zeke is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to people. Eren is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to himself. This is also why the final conflict is shaping up to be the people closest to Eren in the world saying he isn't acting like himself because if there is one thing Eren has not done it is deny his own desires for freedom. Mikasa and Armin are most likely going to resolve the conflict not by killing Eren but by *freeing* Eren. Because right now the person most trapped in the world, even if he himself doesn't feel it, is Eren.

I think you're mostly right here (and I definitely agree that freeing Eren is a likely endgame), but I'm not sure I'm on the same page for all of it.

Eren's actions are wrong, yes, but I still think they're wrong in a different way than Zeke's, as far as the narrative is concerned. Eren's still trying to pursue freedom even when he's trapped. It's the point of his talk with Falco about the other side of Hell, and an undercurrent in his scenes with Zeke and Grisha. There's something he's chasing, even as he hates the path to it, in the same way he accepted imprisonment (repeatedly) during his time in the Survey Corps, because that restraint was on the path to the freedom he was chasing.

It shows up in a lot of his actions leading up to and within the rumbling, too. Eren says the opposite of freedom is ignorance, and he makes a point of letting the world know why he's murdering so many innocents. He tries to force a different path, even as he fails. And he gives the choice to Ymir, rather than try to force her. Eren still believes in freedom, even as it's stolen from him, while Zeke opposes it.

As Eren's hit endgame, Mikasa and Armin have shifted from "Eren's not acting like himself!" to "...Okay. This horrible thing is classic Eren." Armin was sure that Eren wouldn't agree to Zeke's plan, but when the rumbling kicked off, he, Jean, and (eventually) Mikasa all reached a point where they could see how Eren would do this.

The bit I disagree with most, though, is Eren thinking this is right. He's explicitly said it isn't. It's just the only course he can see where he saves what matters most to him. (Floch wasn't wrong when he said Eren was Eldia's own devil.)

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


ImpAtom posted:

Eren has taken on the Colossal Titan's role from the start of the series, just multiplied. (It's not really a coincidence that The Rumbling is nothing but Colossal Titans.) But we know now that the Colossal Titan was the embodiment of a trapped and helpless person who felt they had no other choice because of the way the world was.

The whole first chapter is an interesting reread with what we already know. The colossal titan appears as if in answer to Eren's desires, and Eren and Armin both effectively prophesize the titans swarming the city before it happens.

...so if future sight is a function of the Attack Titan that manifests even before you get the power, that might say something about Armin.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Don't know if it's been brought up yet, but Mikasa's plan is absolutely to wrap the scarf around Eren - the one he gave away the night he became a murderer.

Terror Sweat
Mar 15, 2009



Why do they have to be sterilized, why can't the magic girl just turn off the magic powers

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Terror Sweat posted:

Why do they have to be sterilized, why can't the magic girl just turn off the magic powers

Because Marley was planning on exterminating them anyway - not just for the ancient grudges and general nazism, but also because they wanted their land and resources. Taking away Titans might remove the only defense they have.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


Terror Sweat posted:

Why do they have to be sterilized, why can't the magic girl just turn off the magic powers

The world takes their retribution anyway, less ability to defend and if they say they canít anymore because a magic girl turned off their ability to change, whoís gonna believe or care. Plus the islands resources which was the real reason anyway

Zekes plan was get the stalemate and then let Eldians die off slowly behind the walls. Just as monstrous but in his eyes less people suffer overall and after seeing what Eren has done, itís not as bad as the reality. Everything, not just humans, have been destroyed by him to keep Eldia alive. The island is going to be the only thing in the world that will have living creatures left on it.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Reminder that Zeke (and even little nice boy Armin) supported using the Rumbling to destroy Marley's military invasion fleet... just not the entire world. For Zeke, it was just to say "don't gently caress with us", so then everybody could die off in a generation before they inevitably came back and killed them.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

Reminder that Zeke (and even little nice boy Armin) supported using the Rumbling to destroy Marley's military invasion fleet... just not the entire world. For Zeke, it was just to say "don't gently caress with us", so then everybody could die off in a generation before they inevitably came back and killed them.

It wasn't just Marley's fleet. It was everybody's fleet.

One thing that came up this chapter that I found interesting was Annie saying that Eldians were doomed even if they stopped Eren, because Marley was gone.

For Eren and the other residents of Paradis, Marley was The Enemy, but for Eldians outside of the island, Marley was the closest thing they had to a friend. It really emphasizes the root of Eren's desperation, even as it shows the "obvious" fix just making things worse.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


chiasaur11 posted:

It wasn't just Marley's fleet. It was everybody's fleet.

One thing that came up this chapter that I found interesting was Annie saying that Eldians were doomed even if they stopped Eren, because Marley was gone.

For Eren and the other residents of Paradis, Marley was The Enemy, but for Eldians outside of the island, Marley was the closest thing they had to a friend. It really emphasizes the root of Eren's desperation, even as it shows the "obvious" fix just making things worse.

It's so nice seeing how these characters have progressed. Seeing Eren gradually turn into a monster is the best and most obvious transformation, but it's really interesting that I've also gone from seeing Annie as a despicable arc villain early on and now being all like "please, please don't let Annie die."

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



I'm not really sure Eren quite "turned into" a monster. Even as a kid he did that serial killer poo poo to those goons that were trying to kidnap Mikasa.

That poo poo was practically the backstory to an 80's slasher villain.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Raxivace posted:

I'm not really sure Eren quite "turned into" a monster. Even as a kid he did that serial killer poo poo to those goons that were trying to kidnap Mikasa.

That poo poo was practically the backstory to an 80's slasher villain.

I mean, yeah, that's fair. I guess, like, more of a monster. He's had problems since the very beginning, but the early series still played a cool trick where you could imagine him as just your standard shonen protagonist, when gradually that option got further and further away. You see how his experiences shape him and continuously take him down an even darker path.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Raxivace posted:

I'm not really sure Eren quite "turned into" a monster. Even as a kid he did that serial killer poo poo to those goons that were trying to kidnap Mikasa.

That poo poo was practically the backstory to an 80's slasher villain.

And right after, he gives Mikasa his scarf and welcomes her to his... no, their home.

That's the really fun thing about Eren there. In no time flat, he goes from "I killed animals that happened to look like human beings." to offering his home to a girl he just met because she was in need.

It's actually a pretty fun parallel to current events. Eren is the first person to show kindness to Ymir, not just for his objective, but because he sees someone suffering, someone who believes that she should never have been born, and he needs her to know that's not true. She has the right to freedom, the same as anyone.

And then, like with Mikasa, it leads to horrific violence, only this time it's being inflicted on a lot more people, most of whom don't have it coming.

The big difference this time is that now, Eren can't ignore the weight of his sins. He's killing people, no different from him, his mother, or his unborn child. That's the core of his talk with Reiner and Falco. He used to have a black-and-white worldview, where he was good, and his enemies were bad. But now... now he's grateful to see Reiner, because he knows they're both the same. Half-assing pieces of poo poo.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


Raxivace posted:

I'm not really sure Eren quite "turned into" a monster. Even as a kid he did that serial killer poo poo to those goons that were trying to kidnap Mikasa.

That poo poo was practically the backstory to an 80's slasher villain.

They say it themselves

Did he change or did they just close their eyes to the fact he was always like this. Could this have been stopped, could they have found another way if they hadn't blinded their eyes to the evidence

Asuron fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Sep 10, 2020

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




I'm still just tickled by the fact that Eren is the ultimate mastermind behind everything, manipulating the past itself to make everything happen. Memory time travel's a doozy!

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


If Ymir weren't an Eldian he would be happily crushing her under his feet right now. I wouldn't praise his kindness.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008



If there's one thing about Eren that's not happening, it's him doing any of this happily. If he's lucky he'll find peace when he dies. It'll be interesting to see who's waiting for him in the after life. I'm assuming he's dead by the end of this manga either way.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


The ending is just Eren's kid being raised by two moms, Historia and Mikasa

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Anyone able to get the crunchyroll AoT chapters to load?

Mountaineer
Aug 29, 2008

Imagine a rod breaking on a robot face - forever

Sub Harrison posted:

Anyone able to get the crunchyroll AoT chapters to load?

I can on the mobile manga app, but not on any of my pc's internet browsers for some reason.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





No Wave posted:

If Ymir weren't an Eldian he would be happily crushing her under his feet right now. I wouldn't praise his kindness.

Yes, "happily".

That's why, after saving Ramzi, he broke down sobbing, begging for forgiveness for what he knew he was going to do.

The whole Ramzi scene reinforced that Mikasa's not all wrong in the Eren she sees. Eren may be a violent loudmouth with what could charitably be described as "homicidal tendencies" and "A freedom boner visible from orbit", but his kindness is real.

As for Eren dying... I'd bet money against. The final panel and the Requiem both suggest he's seeing how this ends with his own eyes.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Yeah I haven't been under the impression that Eren really wants to do what he is doing, it's just that seeing the past and future and knowing that it will work and that so far that he hasn't been able to change anything has kind of locked him onto his path.

Attention being called to Mikasa not having here scarf this chapter makes me think that maybe in his vision of the future she had it so seeing her without it might cause him to change things.

Ethiser fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Sep 10, 2020

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


chiasaur11 posted:

Yes, "happily".

That's why, after saving Ramzi, he broke down sobbing, begging for forgiveness for what he knew he was going to do.

Not just that, he was distraught at the fact his plan to unleash the rumbling wasn't merely something that circumstances had forced upon him, but that on some level it's something he wished for - because the idea of a world teeming with humanity wasn't as exciting as his childhood dream of exploring a vast unknown world.

Besides the self-loathing involved in admitting to himself his intentions can't be entirely pure, it also carries the connotation that even at that junction, when he was already sure he'd go through with things and probably even now, he wasn't sure this was the only way. Just the only way he could envision.

It takes me back to the scene when Eren was under arrest, repeating "fight, fight" to his reflection. He lashes out at Hange, angry that she (and by extension Armin and everyone else) couldn't find a way to save the island that didn't doom Historia.

And yea, all of this stands in contrast with both Zeke and the King of the Walls, who believed their respective plans where righteous.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 10, 2020

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Does it really make a difference to you if the guy who extinguishes all life from seven continents is sad inside?

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


We're doing character analysis so yes.

dis astranagant
Dec 14, 2006



It amuses me how, in the year of Dunc, Eren has gone full Paul Atreides.

dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Sep 11, 2020

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


This has always been one of my favorite scenes (and I am still bothered that the anime skipped it) but it seems relevant to Eren's present state of mind:

ZZZorcerer
Jul 24, 2007



Asuron posted:

The world takes their retribution anyway, less ability to defend and if they say they canít anymore because a magic girl turned off their ability to change, whoís gonna believe or care. Plus the islands resources which was the real reason anyway

Zekes plan was get the stalemate and then let Eldians die off slowly behind the walls. Just as monstrous but in his eyes less people suffer overall and after seeing what Eren has done, itís not as bad as the reality. Everything, not just humans, have been destroyed by him to keep Eldia alive. The island is going to be the only thing in the world that will have living creatures left on it.

Creatures of the ocean will be fine, in the end whales and dolphins will inherit the earth

Sub Harrison posted:

Anyone able to get the crunchyroll AoT chapters to load?

For some reason only edge works with the CR manga page here

ZZZorcerer fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Sep 11, 2020

flowinprose
Sep 11, 2001

Where were you? .... when they built that ladder to heaven...

ZZZorcerer posted:

Creatures of the ocean will be fine, in the end whales and dolphins will inherit the earth

Kitiara
Apr 21, 2009


Attack On Titan Season 4 release date confirmed for 7 December 2020 by NHK.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Hype, time to schedule the rewatch.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





This does explain why Mikasa was blowing up my Twitter timeline. (People were mad she was impressed she could carry so many thunder arrows and also short hair I guess.)

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


new art, link to big image:
https://i.redd.it/ziqckou1o1p51.jpg

RuBisCO
May 1, 2009

"...But I'm so cute so you'll forgive me, right?"





Lipstick Apathy

So excited to see Eren eat the Warhammer titan like a loving egg

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

RuBisCO posted:

So excited to see Eren eat the Warhammer titan like a loving egg

Ahhh that blissful period of time when it seemed like Eren had a handle on things

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply