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In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Man, I may be just reading to things too much but people in the fandom have noted that the music video for Season 3 Part 1's ending song ("Akatsuki no Requiem") seems to broadly spoil the ending of the story. I'm convinced it's true.

In brief:
- Eren (represented by the trenchcoated figure) wins, kills the Alliance (brutally, if the video is accurate), and Rumbles the world. However, he is left emotionally (and possibly physically) crippled by the experience.
- Eren is the father of Historia's child and the the three of them live (seemingly) in peace and happiness. This would be where the "You are free...") final panel comes in.
- Kid Eren (represented by the flower ball thingy with the arrow/wings of freedom sticking out of it) flashes forward and witnesses the Rumbling and the deaths of his friends. Kid Eren prepares to kill his future self (or at least wants to) but, seeing the freedom that his future self has achieved, relents. Presumably, given the fade to white next to the tree, Kid Eren then wakes up, crying but unable to remember why, as depicted in Chapter 1.


Maybe it's just been a long month between chapters but it seems so... overt. Especially the moment when the flower ball thingy touches the trenchcoat figure and experiences his memory through PATHS.

This also would fit into the longstanding tradition of the anime openings and endings spoiling things. Granted, putting spoilers in a music video for one of the ending songs is one step removed from the other examples.

In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 26, 2020

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Desperate Character
Apr 13, 2009


Leaks are out for the new chapter and it is definitely jaw-dropping

so many amazing panels like with people just running off the cliff with no one else to go and then the baby

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Translation is here: https://attack-of-titan.com/manga/shingeki-no-kyojin-chapter-134/


I get the feeling that's not really Zeke.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Beefstew posted:

Translation is here: https://attack-of-titan.com/manga/shingeki-no-kyojin-chapter-134/


I get the feeling that's not really Zeke.

This appears to be the Warhammer Titan's power.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Beefstew posted:


I get the feeling that's not really Zeke.

Probably not but it could be cool if somehow Zeke is on Eren's side kinda like how Grisha begged Zeke to stop Eren after reclaiming the founding titan, and yet later that evening went ahead and had Eren eat him. Grisha must have seen *something else* in Eren's memories and it would reinforce that point if Zeke were actually fighting alongside Eren.... otherwise all of this is just super depressing with no chance of a silver lining

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Super Rad posted:

Probably not but it could be cool if somehow Zeke is on Eren's side kinda like how Grisha begged Zeke to stop Eren after reclaiming the founding titan, and yet later that evening went ahead and had Eren eat him. Grisha must have seen *something else* in Eren's memories and it would reinforce that point if Zeke were actually fighting alongside Eren.... otherwise all of this is just super depressing with no chance of a silver lining

For Grisha, I interpreted it as him going "gently caress it, yeah, kill em all" after Eren told him that Carla had died. Babbo Eren accidentally caught him in a moment of weakness. As for the future memories, reminder that the while the Attack Titan can see them, The Founding Titan can change them. It's possible that something down the line changes the memory of the actual event to close some causality loop or something.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

For Grisha, I interpreted it as him going "gently caress it, yeah, kill em all" after Eren told him that Carla had died. Babbo Eren accidentally caught him in a moment of weakness. As for the future memories, reminder that the while the Attack Titan can see them, The Founding Titan can change them. It's possible that something down the line changes the memory of the actual event to close some causality loop or something.

Except Grisha also followed up by passing the powers on to Eren. That's after telling Zeke to stop Eren.

And Eren seemed to think there was something important there from how he was going to show Zeke.

It feels like there's still at least one thing we haven't been shown. And it's probably important.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Chapter's awesome but the action should be a little easier to follow once animated.

Speaking of which, I'm about finished with another watch of seasons 1-3 and I love how I can spot so much more now.

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Man that chapter was gruesome, like reading the prologue chapters again for the first time.

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.





Trying to wait until it's done to catch up at this point. Any announcement yet on how many chapters left?

Sjs00
Jun 29, 2013

Yeah Baby Yeah !

awesome chapter thanks for posting it as always

kidcoelacanth
Sep 23, 2009



starting to think this eren fella might be a bad dude

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Zerilan posted:

Trying to wait until it's done to catch up at this point. Any announcement yet on how many chapters left?

No confirmation, estimated 4 or 5.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


I'd say more than 5, less than 10.

If I were to map it out, I'd say three or four chapters for the final battle (with all the expected twists and turns where one side might win and then it reverses), one chapter dealing with the immediate aftermath, and then two or three chapters dealing with an epilogue/last twist (more PATHS probably)/wrapping up outstanding questions and story threads.

If things are done in two or three chapters, I think Isayama will be hardpressed to resolve things without it feeling tremendously rushed.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


In It For The Tank posted:

I'd say more than 5, less than 10.

If I were to map it out, I'd say three or four chapters for the final battle (with all the expected twists and turns where one side might win and then it reverses), one chapter dealing with the immediate aftermath, and then two or three chapters dealing with an epilogue/last twist (more PATHS probably)/wrapping up outstanding questions and story threads.

If things are done in two or three chapters, I think Isayama will be hardpressed to resolve things without it feeling tremendously rushed.

If that's the case, then it'll end in 8, so the volumes are even. But some folks were suspecting an ending on 139, considering the significance of the numbers 13 and 9.

If it ends in 8 chapters, it will probably finish at the same time as the anime, just like FMA: Brotherhood.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


has there been any indication if season 4 will be split into two parts? that would give more time if there’s more than ~5 chapters left.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


No idea.

It's also going to be starting 2/3rds of the way into the current (Fall) season, presumably continuing into Winter, so it's likely going to have a non-standard episode count run.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


bees x1000 posted:

has there been any indication if season 4 will be split into two parts? that would give more time if there’s more than ~5 chapters left.

Recent leakers said two parts, with part 1 (presumably going to the beginning of the Rumbling) being 16 episodes.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Beefstew posted:

Recent leakers said two parts, with part 1 (presumably going to the beginning of the Rumbling) being 16 episodes.

true showrunner trolls would end it with Eren's flying head

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




So I posted on facebook that I was excited the anime is starting up again in like 5 days. Got dogpiled about supporting fascist media. To be honest, I've forgotten, is this series overtly nationalistic and fascistic or is Isayama doing a "Starship Troopers by Verehoeven" subversion of fascist imagery/ideology?

I'll prob still watch it even so cause pretty fights.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Nah, it’s not either of those things. If it was, I wouldn’t watch it. Isayama makes it quite clear that we’re not supposed to be happy with Eren’s or Marley’s actions.

There’s been some good rebuttals of those accusations in this thread, but I can’t remember when or where they were.

edit: though I guess the series can make for good fascist bait, like 40k does. That one guy in the shop who’s gotten a little too gung-ho about the Imperium.

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Dec 1, 2020

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Ccs posted:

So I posted on facebook that I was excited the anime is starting up again in like 5 days. Got dogpiled about supporting fascist media. To be honest, I've forgotten, is this series overtly nationalistic and fascistic or is Isayama doing a "Starship Troopers by Verehoeven" subversion of fascist imagery/ideology?

I'll prob still watch it even so cause pretty fights.

Morons on Twitter continue to fuel that poo poo even after it's been refuted in a hundred ways. 100% guarantee you that none of the folks who harassed you have ever engaged with it.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Attack on Titan uses holocaust imagery (ghettos, armbands) and there's elements that, if you squint and decontextualize from the themes and actual plot of the story, might look like blood libel.

But all that buzz about Isayama being an anti-semitic cryptofascist imperialist nationalist or whatever? Utter nonsense. It's the product of critics who haven't actually read the material in question farming outrage clicks by passing an at-a-glance judgment while echoing a 10-year-old blogpost that uses a screenshot of a long gone 15-year-old social media post from someone the blogger believes might have been Isayama during his highschool years as proof he's been fash all along.

There's also that whole deal about Pixis being modeled after a general from the 1905 Russo-Japanese War but like, who gets offended by that?

Meanwhile the actual story has as one of its prevailing themes that fascism loving sucks, that revenge and revanchism-as-a-policy are wrong, that the sociopolitical order has always been a succession of the powerful exploiting the powerless, and that every justification for this state of affairs in any given time period is but convenient excuses conjured up by those who benefit from the status quo.

Hell, you need only take a step back and look a the Eldian Empire, specifically how it never disappeared: one day the latest king in a 2000-year-old dynasty felt sad and decided to brainwash millions of his subjects into collectively atoning for the crimes of his family, meanwhile the country he left behind rebranded itself Marley and fabricated this national mythos of rebellion against a decadent genocidal empire and its devil race, while continuing to use titanized Eldians to oppress their neighbors just like the regime they purportedly replaced.

Manga spoilers And as the protagonist moves forward with his desperate genocidal plan as a resolution to the core conflict of the story, nobody in the main cast diegetically endorses his actions, not even Eren himself, and Isayama has openly stated that Eren has never been intended to be the hero of the story.

Really, about the fashiest honest reading you can get from Isayama through his work is that, rather than categorically repudiating the existence of the military as a concept, he might consider it a necessary evil given the complexities of the world we live in - while acknowledging that as with any institution with power it is easily corruptible and thus requires people of integrity to act to make sure it properly fulfills its duty of serving and protecting the people.

Also that he doesn't care if some people are offended that he uses holocaust imagery to show that an oppressive militaristic regime is, in fact, oppressive and bad.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 1, 2020

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






I think it would be like someone saying schindler's list is fascist media

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



For some people any series where the protagonists are in an Army will be 'fascist'.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




There was a point, a few years back, when I would have agreed that the story was pro-fascist, around the time when it unambiguously portrayed "the military takes over the government with the express purpose of revenge-based warmongering" [disclaimer: my memory of a lot of the story is funny and I could have interpreted much of this incorrectly] as a good thing, but now that Eren is literally just trying to kill everyone, I think that take is a pretty hard sell.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


I think even at the time the abrupt reveal of Zackley's insane proclivites demonstrated that the military seizing power with Historia as a figurehead was not meant to be read as a wholly good thing.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


Beefstew posted:

Morons on Twitter continue to fuel that poo poo even after it's been refuted in a hundred ways. 100% guarantee you that none of the folks who harassed you have ever engaged with it.

I remember around the time when the Yeagerist faction was coming into power in the story and it was portrayed as this really awful fascist group .Polygon at the time, decided to write a dumb article, trying to use that element in the story as proof that the author was a fascist and therefore that must mean he supports it because he's using imagery from WW2 with it. It's both frustrating and amazing to me that anyone can make a connection as braindead as that one was.


comedyblissoption posted:

I think it would be like someone saying schindler's list is fascist media

This is exactly how I feel, it's like the people getting upset literally turned off their brains while reading it and chose to ignore everything actually being shown.

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

In It For The Tank posted:

I think even at the time the abrupt reveal of Zackley's insane proclivites demonstrated that the military seizing power with Historia as a figurehead was not meant to be read as a wholly good thing.

Even if it had been portrayed as a good thing, I don't see how anyone (who actually read it) would outright castigate the military coup when the alternative was like, straight up generations of eugenics and mind control, as literal as you can be about robbing free will.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Turin Turambar posted:

For some people any series where the protagonists are in an Army will be 'fascist'.

Attack on Titan is at least about fascism in a way other stories about enlisted soldiers not necessarily are.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


I recall someone in this thread pointing out the contrast between the season 1 openings (humanity triumphs) and what actually happens (they get mostly curbstomped) as another good turn on fascist propaganda.

Squidster
Oct 7, 2008

Life's just better with Ominous Gloves.


I, for one, can't wait for the rumbling of endless thinkpieces that will be unleashed when the final chapter drops.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




HoneyBoy posted:

Even if it had been portrayed as a good thing, I don't see how anyone (who actually read it) would outright castigate the military coup when the alternative was like, straight up generations of eugenics and mind control, as literal as you can be about robbing free will.

Because metaphors, dude.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Bleck posted:

There was a point, a few years back, when I would have agreed that the story was pro-fascist, around the time when it unambiguously portrayed "the military takes over the government with the express purpose of revenge-based warmongering" [disclaimer: my memory of a lot of the story is funny and I could have interpreted much of this incorrectly] as a good thing, but now that Eren is literally just trying to kill everyone, I think that take is a pretty hard sell.

I don't think revenge based warmongering was ever the plan for the Military. They were just rebelling against a corrupt noble system that viewed every citizen as expendable and kept them in the dark about everything going on.

Then when they learned the info that the leadership used to know about, They considered keeping it private, until it was pointed out that keeping all of the information hidden from everyone was one of the reasons for their rebellion, and so they released the info to the public.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Bleck posted:

There was a point, a few years back, when I would have agreed that the story was pro-fascist, around the time when it unambiguously portrayed "the military takes over the government with the express purpose of revenge-based warmongering" [disclaimer: my memory of a lot of the story is funny and I could have interpreted much of this incorrectly] as a good thing, but now that Eren is literally just trying to kill everyone, I think that take is a pretty hard sell.

That arc had some ugly implications under the surface, the Paradis founder's ideology was somewhat analogous to post-WW2 Germany's guilt over the holocaust, and the military coup against them could be read as a repudiation of the idea that countries should ever feel guilt over the crimes of their ancestors. It was close to the ideology of Japanese nationalists (who have a much, much greater say in the Japan than the equivalent in Germany).

In the end, in full context, it made more sense.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




HoneyBoy posted:

Even if it had been portrayed as a good thing, I don't see how anyone (who actually read it) would outright castigate the military coup when the alternative was like, straight up generations of eugenics and mind control, as literal as you can be about robbing free will.
Yeah, no that would have been fascist. If you have a crazy fantasy where everything's supernaturally terrible and only a military coup can save us... you're portraying what fascists actually believe.

We're not judging the actions of the characters here, but the whole world that the author created. If you write a story where Hitler saves the world from a supernatural evil... well, Hitler isn't bad in that story, but you're portraying something pretty bad in any case.

Don't worry though, this story did not portray that. Thought it was kind of close to portraying that so I can get where people are coming from. Zackley's perversion seemed kind of like a tacked on 'gotcha' rather than a core thematic element at the time, and it otherwise seemed like the heroes had triumphed. It feels like that theme of everyone ultimately being the same (i.e. lovely) has come more to the foreground after that, so I personally don't think the implications are fascist if you're paying attention, but I get what the issue is.

If someone wants to call Attack on Titan insensitive for its use of holocaust imagery... honestly, that would be fair. There's a lot of stuff that very much reads as a fantasy commentary on Jewish history, and the 'cycles of violence' theme ends up presenting the potential Jewish analogs as in part bringing it on themselves. And that's pretty hosed up. But just about as hosed up as any "people with superpowers are analogous to minority" stories because historically minorities, including the Jews, have not had power and were never a threat to anyone.

But in any case, I just want to echo what people have said- the story does not specifically support fascism- while being careful to emphasize that the story is not above criticism, and calling it out on being hosed up in certain ways could be justified.

Eiba fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Dec 1, 2020

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





One thing I've noticed about most of the accusations of fascism for Attack on Titan is how devoted they are to Morton's Fork. No matter what happens in the manga, it's more evidence for the theory.

Attack on Titan's final arc has the leader of the most fascist group in the manga get beaten up by a middle aged woman while looking like an idiot, has the heroes kill a bunch of them, and even makes a point of the manga's protagonist not agreeing with their racist doctrines or caring about their plans for empire even when he's gone completely round the bend to the point where he's murdering billions of people.

Attack on Titan's not been subtle with some of its themes in the endgame. Instead it's been having people turn to the camera and say things like "Racism is bad", "The cycle of hatred hurts everyone", "Fascism sucks", "Governments refusing to be honest empowers totalitarian rebellion"...

But no. The internet hot take factory has warmed up, and the message must be repeated no matter how much evidence there is against it. (Similarly, 4chan's actual Nazi types stubbornly insist on idolizing Floch, a guy who spends most of his panel time being a tool and a failure before he died without managing to achieve anything.)

I suppose it's true. The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Phobophilia posted:

That arc had some ugly implications under the surface, the Paradis founder's ideology was somewhat analogous to post-WW2 Germany's guilt over the holocaust, and the military coup against them could be read as a repudiation of the idea that countries should ever feel guilt over the crimes of their ancestors. It was close to the ideology of Japanese nationalists (who have a much, much greater say in the Japan than the equivalent in Germany).

In the end, in full context, it made more sense.

We did not know those details until after the coup happened however. Remember the reason the coup happened was because the Paradis Nobility were being super evil.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


I can hardly equate the Eldians to the typical fictional "minority with superpowers", because their one superpower is the ability to be permanently turned into mindless man-eating monsters through the use of chemicals exclusively available to the loving military.

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redsniper
Feb 15, 2012


Conspiratiorist posted:

I can hardly equate the Eldians to the typical fictional "minority with superpowers", because their one superpower is the ability to be permanently turned into mindless man-eating monsters through the use of chemicals exclusively available to the loving military.

It's easy to miss but the Eldians have also been shown to be able to transform into titans at will and maintain conscious control.

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