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HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

Eiba posted:

Yeah, no that would have been fascist. If you have a crazy fantasy where everything's supernaturally terrible and only a military coup can save us... you're portraying what fascists actually believe.

We're not judging the actions of the characters here, but the whole world that the author created. If you write a story where Hitler saves the world from a supernatural evil... well, Hitler isn't bad in that story, but you're portraying something pretty bad in any case.

If you read it straight on paper as: puppet government ousted by military leaders and replaced with new monarchy, then sure, the story smacks of fascism. Missing of course is all the context that would explain otherwise. Thing is, no character's cause in this story is portrayed as one a fascist (or anyone) would want to champion (unless you want to count Eren's unending genocidal bloodlust), so it was ultimately never a concern that the story would slip into fascist trappings.

That was the case until the imagery in Marley and the Eldians with armbands sparked the whole thing, and at that point no one was about to go back and read the Uprising arc. Though I guess the only people who might still be on board with Eren's scorched earth at this point would have to be fash, or just posadists.

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Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Conspiratiorist posted:

I can hardly equate the Eldians to the typical fictional "minority with superpowers", because their one superpower is the ability to be permanently turned into mindless man-eating monsters through the use of chemicals exclusively available to the loving military.

The Eldian superpower is to make an extremely valuable slave.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


redsniper posted:

It's easy to miss but the Eldians have also been shown to be able to transform into titans at will and maintain conscious control.

The Nine Titans are summonable biomecha, and who gets to pilot them is both presently and historically the purview of monarchs.

Schubalts
Nov 25, 2007

People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.


Also becoming one means you will die in 15 years, no matter how old you are when it happens, and the traditional method of passing the power on is to get devoured by a chosen successor.

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

Who oftentimes is someone in your immediately family.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Conspiratiorist posted:

I can hardly equate the Eldians to the typical fictional "minority with superpowers", because their one superpower is the ability to be permanently turned into mindless man-eating monsters through the use of chemicals exclusively available to the loving military.
I'm equating it because it gives a reason for people to fear and hate the Eldians. Real racism is much more absurd, but in the context of this story, "they can turn into monsters," gives a reason for their discrimination that doesn't exist for real minorities. It's admittedly less fun than the X-Men or whatever.

HoneyBoy posted:

If you read it straight on paper as: puppet government ousted by military leaders and replaced with new monarchy, then sure, the story smacks of fascism. Missing of course is all the context that would explain otherwise. Thing is, no character's cause in this story is portrayed as one a fascist (or anyone) would want to champion (unless you want to count Eren's unending genocidal bloodlust), so it was ultimately never a concern that the story would slip into fascist trappings.

That was the case until the imagery in Marley and the Eldians with armbands sparked the whole thing, and at that point no one was about to go back and read the Uprising arc. Though I guess the only people who might still be on board with Eren's scorched earth at this point would have to be fash, or just posadists.
Yeah, if we're looking at the wider context, I generally agree with you. It's a complicated story. But in that particular moment, the protagonists won. The military overthrew the old duplicitous government, and brought order using good military sense, and all the heroes helped and it felt good. If you stopped the story there and didn't take Zachaly's perversions seriously, it looks like a fascist dream. "If only some sensible military officers could cut through all the complexity and just do what needs to be done."

I think we probably agree on the wider points, I was specifically saying that moment, at that point in the story, looked really fascist. The brutality and inhumanity of their opponents wouldn't make it any less of a fascist fantasy. Fascists totally view their enemies that way.

The following context did make it less of a fascist fantasy. "The person holding the gun" is part of a grim cycle. Nothing was solved. That's more complicated than fascism.

I guess my point is, if people are talking about the story up until that point (which I believe is about where the anime is) and saying, "seems pretty fashy," rather than digging in and calling that take absurd, it might be more reasonable to say to the detractors, "true, let's keep that in mind and see where things go from here," with the knowledge that things get a lot more thoughtful, or at least less optimistic about any particular way of doing things, after that point.

That's discounting people who just get off on calling out popular things as actually bad. They're gonna have their fun and there's no sense engaging with it all that much.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Eiba posted:


Yeah, if we're looking at the wider context, I generally agree with you. It's a complicated story. But in that particular moment, the protagonists won. The military overthrew the old duplicitous government, and brought order using good military sense, and all the heroes helped and it felt good. If you stopped the story there and didn't take Zachaly's perversions seriously, it looks like a fascist dream. "If only some sensible military officers could cut through all the complexity and just do what needs to be done."

Well it was not really that. The old Government was far more facist. Suppressing the press, killing those who innovated or thought differently from the others. Sacrificing the common people for the wealthy.

Like it was not even military sense that brought order. One of the first things they did was allow free press and speech, then they allowed people to start researching things the old government outlawed.

Dias
Feb 20, 2011



I SURVIVED THE AWFUL BLOCK, AGDQ 2018



You know, last time this came up on the forums, using the example of Pixis being modeled after a Russo-Japanese War general as a smoking gun for AoT being nationalist propaganda, I actually did some research on Akiyama Yoshifuru (the general in question) and how he's seen in Japanese media, and I found some interesting context.

So, dude was kinda an rear end in a top hat since he was a big name during the Japanese occupation of Korea, and that was a terrible period in Japan's history. However, it seems like he's been pretty lionized like a lot of big names in American history, and there's a novel called Saka no Ue no Kumo that tells his story thru a pretty positive lens. That would be whatever, except there was a NHK TV series adaptation of that novel that aired from 2009 to 2011...which fits perfectly with the introduction of Dot Pixis in the manga. It really feels like Isayama thought "huh, this guy looks cool, maybe I can base this pragmatic but humble general on him".

After retiring, Akiyama refused promotion to Field Marshal and just became a small town school teacher, and this seems to be the main reason why Isayama was attracted to the guy as a reference point, according to the...well, no translations of that blog post. There are literally no decent translations of that poo poo, everyone is going by Google Translate. If anyone speaks Japanese and wants to actually translate poo poo, that would be dope.

So it really feels more like a lionization of "ol' time" noble warrior-generals akin to what Americans do when it comes to their Founding Fathers rather than an obssession with Japan's imperialistic past.

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

What it comes down to in the end is Isayama just can't get over that fashy fashion.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


A nuance that people always seem to overlook is that the Eldians are always victims.
Even the "Eldian Empire" was kinda misunderstood. Ymir's people were enslaved by the Eldians, who were a nordic tribe that seemed culturally unrelated. Then she was turned into a slave, as were her daughters, and forced to carry out that empire's will. Now Marley's risen to power and uses the Subjects of Ymir (who they now just call Eldians through the convoluted obfuscation of history) as scapegoats to extend their hegemony. They claim they're a cursed and inferior race, yet rely entirely on them for military dominance. They claim they're inherently bestial, but the Marleyans are literally the ones making the Eldians into Titans to validate this propaganda and pit the downtrodden peoples against one another. They claim they're punishing them for the sins of their ancestors, except we know the real reason is that they want to plunder Paradis for its natural resources.
But everyone else in the world seems either content to let the Eldians suffer or otherwise profit off a system that mandates their suffering. That's why Eren views the whole world as guilty - he's seen the past and he's seen the present, and he believes that nobody will ever give his people a break.

And all of our Eldian "villains" are basically slave-Janissaries. The sole exception is Zeke, who has his own self-genocidal plans, but the series also goes out of its way to convey that his beliefs are totally unfounded, and he's projecting his feelings onto everyone because his dad didn't hug him enough.

Donkringel
Apr 22, 2008


Whew, been awhile since I've been in this thread. January 2019!


It was super nice to binge read this story, it is going incredibly well.

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



Speed scan is out:

https://bato.to/chapter/1549738

E: better link https://imgur.com/a/RO8OSBW

Julias fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 4, 2020

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.




Wait, which titan did Annie fly in on at the end?

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


So much going on, gonna have to reread a few times to really follow the action.

change my name posted:

Wait, which titan did Annie fly in on at the end?

Falco, Jaws.

Buzzsaw Roomba
Feb 13, 2012

Christ, what an asshole.



goddamn

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


That chapter was loving wild. Bertolt bit through Reiner's titan form like it was nothing.

Starting the chapter with Ymir releasing the pigs is intriguing. I guess it shows that even as a slave herself she has compassion for those whose freedom is being denied. And it proves she has a rebelliious spirit, hence why she loves Eren so much.

Armin's been captured and Pieck is MIA at the end, so I assume she's going to be "absorbed" like Armin was. Eren logically should just kill her: she's not his friend like the rest of the Alliance, she's completely vulnerable, and she's a threat because of how smart she is. If she is still alive, it means Eren is trying to preserve her life for some reason.

I assume that Zeke has also been absorbed as well.

I'm reminded of that strange scene that was added to the anime adaption when Eren and Annie began to "fuse". Maybe Eren really is trying to reunite all the nine titans into one body.


I still think The Alliance is doomed (i.e. Eren is going to win) for a couple reasons: Ymir is firmly on Eren's side, and he almost certainly has seen the future and knows what to do to win. Armin is only vaguely aware of the first, and no one knows about the second (except Zeke). Those are two insurmountable advantages, and the Alliance is already so disadvantaged to begin with.

Additionally, I believe that Eren's fighting for his child and Historia. He will do anything to save his family, even if it means killing his friends.


Given the general trajectory of the fight, I'd say next chapter Annie and Falco will swing the balance back in Alliance's favour somehow. I suspect that they will cause enough mayhem that Eren's hold on Armin will slip and Armin will be able to transform and nuke everything.

However, it will be a false moment of hope and Eren will reveal some keikaku twist: e.g. he's not actually there (the Founder is a puppet itself), his titan is strong enough to withstand the Colossal Titan's nuke (Reiner has done it twice, why can't Eren?), or Eren just straight up nulifies the transformation (going back on his word earlier - representing a betrayal of his beliefs). From there, it will pretty much be a slaughter unless Eren decides to spare his friends by wiping their memories instead (which, again, would represent a betrayal of his beliefs).


If I had to put money on who lives and who dies: I'm near certain Mikasa dies ("See you later, Eren"), Connie is pretty ancillary so he seems like a logical choice to die, and I feel like Pieck and Zeke are also doomed by virtue of the fact that they're not Eren's friends.

I think Reiner (despite his best efforts), Jean, and Levi will survive. Levi especially has always been designated as the sole survivor, so he'll probably live even though he doesn't want to.

I'm not sure about the rest. Falco and Gabi could survive as representations of the "next generation" (along with Historia and Eren's child) or they die to hammer home the brutality of conflict. Armin and Annie could survive and live out the lives together in peace or they die tragically together. It's up in the air.

In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Dec 4, 2020

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I thought some of the action panels were confusing, then again it's a hard fight to properly visualize, with people and titans moving in 3d in the middle of that weird giant bone structure.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Woooo I properly called that Ymir had actually let the pigs go and wasn't scapegoated. Wonder if she was rendered mute due to prior rebelliousness?

Not sure how I feel about this chapter as a whole - the 'infinite corridor' of titans is a little too shonen for my tastes but w/e it's to show just how outmatched they are. They got totally hosed up and didn't accomplish a single thing. BUT I do genuinely hate that we're just supposed to accept that all of this action is happening with Annie and Reiner's parents as front-row spectators. For me it isn't adding anything to the scene and it just makes the action seem a little overwrought. Like who gives a gently caress if the established awful mom collapses to her knees when she sees her son get chomped? Not to mention that as always, Reiner is shown to be alive in like the very next page which reduces the emotional impact to zero. I've got faith Isayama will make this setup pay off at some point and I have loved every chapter leading up to this.... this one just seems to miss some beats.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


I've seen some people saying that Eren isn't actually bad and is only being controlled by Ymir. Do any of yall think that's true? Because that would be pretty disappointing imo.
In any case, I've read them as partners in crime up to this point. We did, after all, get internal narration from Eren several chapters ago that basically confirmed the reasons why he's doing this, which don't seem to be "mind control".
I guess the debate comes down to the "Founder's will" line from this chapter: is Ymir controlling Eren or just permitting him to do what he thinks he needs to?

Otherwise, wild loving chapter.
Gabi is gonna shoot the explosives and blow Eren's head off again.
Low key disappointed that Annie didn't arrive sporting anime angel wings in her Titan form after absorbing some the Jaw Titan.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Forgot to rant about this in my earlier post but also LOL at Falco having immediately mastered not only the basics of transformation but also awoken some form of the jaw titan that no one had seen up until that point. Dude just went from 0 to flying instantly...

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


The Jaw's line has gotten mixed with the Beast Titan.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


It's an asspull that could have been paced better but I can live with it. It will be worth it though when Ymir summons the previous flying Beast Titan to chase down Falco.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Or just make another Beast and start throwing more rocks.

Also its not too much of a stretch for Falco to not need any practice, there were things Eren just knew about his titan abilities early on, despite not knowing anything at all.

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


I guess a warhammer titan could just make a bow and arrow to shoot it out of the sky

RatHat
Dec 31, 2007


Im liking the whole previous shifters thing, gives Isayama a final chance to go wild with the Titan designs.

Super Rad posted:

Woooo I properly called that Ymir had actually let the pigs go and wasn't scapegoated. Wonder if she was rendered mute due to prior rebelliousness?


Could be both. She did let the pigs out but no one saw it so they were still scapegoating her. And every slave had their tongue cut out, not just her.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

MonsterEnvy posted:

Well it was not really that. The old Government was far more facist. Suppressing the press, killing those who innovated or thought differently from the others. Sacrificing the common people for the wealthy.

Also literally rewriting history on the people's minds, effectively making them live on a fabricated reality

edit: poo poo, new chapter

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

MechaX posted:

I guess a warhammer titan could just make a bow and arrow to shoot it out of the sky

Goddamn Warhammer Susanoo even outside the canon the Uchiha remain broken af

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty


Can't even fathom all of this being animated, jesus christ

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Going by Jujutsu Kaisen, I believe MAPPA are up to it should they want to.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


MechaX posted:

I guess a warhammer titan could just make a bow and arrow to shoot it out of the sky

I believe they just use their Volcano Cannons to do that from the safety of their Void Shielding

Shneak
Mar 6, 2015

"Doctor, listen to me and listen to me closely.
You're gonna witness all the days..."




Man I had to reread this chapter immediately to understand was going on. At first I thought Pieck went rogue, ate Armin, and he transformed. But I guess that Colossal Titan is another bone copy.

I cannot fathom how this is going to be animated.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Honestly, I think I'll be happy with any ending as long as they don't butcher Eren's character or try to abdicate him of responsibility for this whole mess. Eren loses, Alliance loses, whatever, I think either of those can work, at least.

The World Inferno
Nov 26, 2017





Wait so Annie can make other titans sprout wings? I thought the twist was that the female titan had wings herself.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


AFAIK Falco can fly because he's got some Beast Titan in him and tapped into that memory. I don't think Annie has anything to do with it.

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Annie's power is Mimic - or at least, she can do it better than other Titans (recall Eren eating the Armor bottle to gain hardening powers). This was used to explain how Zeke's spinal fluid - which has already been shown to do special stuff, like control moonlight titans - gave Falco some Beast Titan powers as well. But it's also clearly setup for Annie to either get wings herself (making her the Valkyrie in this big Norse allegory) or take a bite out the Founding Titan and... God knows what would happen from that.
I was kinda hoping that Armin would get knocked off of Eren's back, only to be caught by a Female Titan with wings and bridal carried back into the fight.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006


My leftism is so defined by opposing liberals with reactionary twittershit that I will gleefully simp for the fourteen words propagandist born and bred by America's degenerate bluebloods within the darkest temples of the Central Intelligence Agency.


I'm gonna be so pissed if there isn't flying angel wing annie titan

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


comedyblissoption posted:

I'm gonna be so pissed if there isn't flying angel wing annie titan

Same. It's amazing to think that a few years ago she was a loathed arc villain and now she's beloved.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

New OP

https://twitter.com/Dacsubs/status/1335604245685526529?s=20

Sounds suitably creepy and intense

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Eh, it's not going to be my favorite OP but I like them showing titan-less destruction. I read it like mankind is capable of doing horrible things all by itself, without scapegoating the Eldians.

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Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


It definitely fits the final season very well. I actually love how creepy and unsettling it is, especially with the closeup on the Attack Titans face.

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