Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Viridiant posted:

I'm trying to imagine how good a shot you'd have to be to even hit someone using 3DMG.

Lots of stuff moving through the air: lots of bullets, or clouds of flak that intersect with the soft skinned body. Anything that fucks up planes, except even easier because the targets are dozens of feet rather than thousands of feet above you, and even a glancing shot will incapacitate someone in 3DMG.

Paradis is in a good position because it was a surprise attack against an unprepared victim, but in a proper conflict they would lose in a landslide. 3DMG is equipment for elite soldiers, not conscripts. And the scouts are hardened veterans to a man. They are not replaceable.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





ImpAtom posted:

I don't think anyone in this story ever had a chance at a normal childhood.

Like it's worth recalling that Eren and Mikasa were stabbin' folks long before the Walls got breached.

Jean had a pretty normal childhood before he joined the military. And, well...

...We don't see anything indicating Niccolo's childhood had anything unusual going on. Actually, he and Sasha seemed like they had the most normal, healthy relationship of any major characters in the manga.

(No wonder Isayama had to kill her.)

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Sasha, Jean, and Ymir Freckles are probably the closest thing to good people among the protagonists.

Kassad
Nov 11, 2005

It's about time.


Armin's childhood was pretty normal before the walls were breached, too (unless I forgot something).

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

Sasha, Jean, and Ymir Freckles are probably the closest thing to good people among the protagonists.

Falco's right there, man.

There's also Armin, although he'd protest pretty loudly on that count. One of the fun things about Jean and Armin's friendship comes from that.

Armin's the nice, sweet, harmless seeming kid... who hates to be called a good person because he knows how much of a bastard he can be under pressure. (Look how he handled things with the girl he loved.)

Meanwhile, Jean's an rear end in a top hat who, under pressure, keeps being a good person, which he kind of hates.

They understand each other better than most.

Kassad posted:

Armin's childhood was pretty normal before the walls were breached, too (unless I forgot something).

Armin's parents were murdered by the secret police.

Kassad
Nov 11, 2005

It's about time.


Oh right, I thought they died in the chaos of the attack but I remembered wrong.

Schubalts
Nov 25, 2007

People say bigger is better.

But for the first time in my life, I think I've gone too far.


Yup, they were killed because they were working on a hot air balloon, which would reveal the truth of the island. Royal family couldn't allow that to happen.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

A post made about whether anyone is going to eat annie:

AlternateNu posted:

It's Sasha's time to shine!

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


too soon

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


I remember someone saying almost the exact thing thing in here three years ago.

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010


I get it. It's funny cause shine means die.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


How many people know that Eren can see the future? Historia and maybe Grisha? I can't remember if he's told anyone else.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


bees x1000 posted:

How many people know that Eren can see the future? Historia and maybe Grisha? I can't remember if he's told anyone else.

Only Zeke. Grisha knew but he's already dead and it's unknown if he let Historia in on it (though if he ever told anyone it'd have been her).

Armin's most likely about to find out, though!

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


I assume he's told Historia pretty much everything; maybe she's seen some of what Eren sees when they touch. I don't know why she would go along with this otherwise.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





bees x1000 posted:

I assume he's told Historia pretty much everything; maybe she's seen some of what Eren sees when they touch. I don't know why she would go along with this otherwise.

Because she's the worst girl in the world, the enemy of all mankind.

As was discussed about her and Ymir, Historia's more than a little selfish, and when it's the people she loves against strangers, she makes the personal choice. I mean, I think Eren filled her in on everything, since he makes her one of his top priorities, but she's got a track record here even aside from any future knowledge. Ymir or the world, she picks Ymir. Eren or the world, she picks Eren.

It's Krista who's the good girl, and Krista doesn't exist.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Historia is selfish because she doesn't want to be herself and all her descendants to be human incubators for WMDs

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


chiasaur11 posted:

Because she's the worst girl in the world, the enemy of all mankind.

As was discussed about her and Ymir, Historia's more than a little selfish, and when it's the people she loves against strangers, she makes the personal choice. I mean, I think Eren filled her in on everything, since he makes her one of his top priorities, but she's got a track record here even aside from any future knowledge. Ymir or the world, she picks Ymir. Eren or the world, she picks Eren.

It's Krista who's the good girl, and Krista doesn't exist.

Yeah I get Historia's deal, but there's an order of magnitude difference between choosing Eren over her father's obviously flawed scheme, and actually going through with the rumbling. Eren, for all his predilections towards (justified) violence, was all for Rod's plan in that moment, and only rumbled when he couldn't deny his prescience any longer. I don't believe Historia is more bloodthirsty than him, so I believe she knows everything he does.

While we're here, when they talk about the rumbling, Eren says he can use the founder to make Historia forget. Is he saying he can do that at any time, or that he's going to do it once he's in contact with Zeke? Also, if Eren really is the father, it would be implied that they used the founder to manipulate farmer dude to act as her husband. Again, how did they do that without Zeke?

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


bees x1000 posted:

Yeah I get Historia's deal, but there's an order of magnitude difference between choosing Eren over her father's obviously flawed scheme, and actually going through with the rumbling. Eren, for all his predilections towards (justified) violence, was all for Rod's plan in that moment, and only rumbled when he couldn't deny his prescience any longer. I don't believe Historia is more bloodthirsty than him, so I believe she knows everything he does.

While we're here, when they talk about the rumbling, Eren says he can use the founder to make Historia forget. Is he saying he can do that at any time, or that he's going to do it once he's in contact with Zeke? Also, if Eren really is the father, it would be implied that they used the founder to manipulate farmer dude to act as her husband. Again, how did they do that without Zeke?

Well Historia's right there...

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





bees x1000 posted:

Yeah I get Historia's deal, but there's an order of magnitude difference between choosing Eren over her father's obviously flawed scheme, and actually going through with the rumbling. Eren, for all his predilections towards (justified) violence, was all for Rod's plan in that moment, and only rumbled when he couldn't deny his prescience any longer. I don't believe Historia is more bloodthirsty than him, so I believe she knows everything he does.

While we're here, when they talk about the rumbling, Eren says he can use the founder to make Historia forget. Is he saying he can do that at any time, or that he's going to do it once he's in contact with Zeke? Also, if Eren really is the father, it would be implied that they used the founder to manipulate farmer dude to act as her husband. Again, how did they do that without Zeke?

I brought up siding with Ymir for a reason. As far as Historia knew, Ymir was the enemy of mankind, joining with a plot by Titans from outside the wall to destroy humanity. And if it meant being together with Ymir, she was 100 percent down with it. Meanwhile, Eren was down for her dad's plan because he was completely broken, convinced he was worthless, and basically ready to die. (It's why he says she saved him. It's not about the physical danger, or he'd say that to Mikasa all the time.)

As for the founder, Eren could only use it once he met with Zeke. He just offered to let Historia forget her role as an accessory if she felt she couldn't take it. Her not tattling to the MP was something Eren took as a given.

As for the Farmer, there's plenty of ways to get a guy to fake being the father as a decoy without the founder. Look at how many people were all in for Eren's plan with much more limited information. On top of that, the guy was living with the knowledge that he'd bullied the beloved queen of his country. Historia going "Here's what you can do to make things right." gives her a lot of leverage.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


The farmer may also just think he is the father. Historia could have gotten pregnant with Eren and then hooked up with the farmer. The fact that her baby is seemingly months premature suggests Historia may have lied about when her child was conceived.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think it's worth noting that anyone who goes along with The Rumbling willingly has to be an incredibly profoundly selfish person. At the end of the day you have decided your life is more important than the lives of every other living being on the planet and the consequences are worth it as long as you stay alive. You may try to gussy it up with pointing out how unfair the world is or how cruel your life has been, but at the end of the day that is trying to justify your selfish decision, it doesn't make it not selfish. There is a reason even people who benefit from the Rumbling find it unspeakably terrifyingly awful. You can argue "Well, the people outside of the island are unspeakably cruel" except that a good number of the atrocities faced came from within the island, not without, under the justification of "we have to do this evil thing or we all die."

That's an important note. "We have to do this evil thing or we all die" is the rallying cry of characters who are presented as wrong, cruel or malicious. The series intentionally clashes that with the idea of "We need to keep moving forward no matter what." Almost every time it comes up it is in the hands of someone whose motives are suspect or who has made the choice to take a path that benefits themselves. On the other hand you have characters who active choose to go to their death knowing it will save more people, which was half the point of the Scouts in the first place. Armin is most significant there because he did exactly that. He went from someone who was so scared for himself other people died for him to someone who willingly went to his death to save others and actually followed through. Even now in the story he's sticking to the idea of standing up and risking himself to save lives despite the fact that he could very well remain safe on the Island and benefit from the Rumbling.

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Unless it gets revealed that Eren had to do the Rumbling because Paths bullshit showed him all the possible futures without it were somehow even worse and told Historia about this

Hopefully it wonít go this route, and I canít really name the VN game series that went this route, but letís just say there is a non zero chance that Erenís motives might be complex...

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





Yeah, while I understand why Eren, Historia and possibly Ymir Fritz are going forward with their plan (no pun intended), there's absolutely no reason why Eren couldn't have used the Rumbling as a show of force on Marley while Paradis caught up. The plan he told Yelena and Onyankopon made sense and I guess that's how he duped everybody sans Floch.

I really hope there isn't a last minute redemption for Eren or Historia, or something to explain away why Eren is doing this.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



ImpAtom posted:

I think it's worth noting that anyone who goes along with The Rumbling willingly has to be an incredibly profoundly selfish person. At the end of the day you have decided your life is more important than the lives of every other living being on the planet and the consequences are worth it as long as you stay alive. You may try to gussy it up with pointing out how unfair the world is or how cruel your life has been, but at the end of the day that is trying to justify your selfish decision, it doesn't make it not selfish. There is a reason even people who benefit from the Rumbling find it unspeakably terrifyingly awful. You can argue "Well, the people outside of the island are unspeakably cruel" except that a good number of the atrocities faced came from within the island, not without, under the justification of "we have to do this evil thing or we all die."

That's an important note. "We have to do this evil thing or we all die" is the rallying cry of characters who are presented as wrong, cruel or malicious. The series intentionally clashes that with the idea of "We need to keep moving forward no matter what." Almost every time it comes up it is in the hands of someone whose motives are suspect or who has made the choice to take a path that benefits themselves. On the other hand you have characters who active choose to go to their death knowing it will save more people, which was half the point of the Scouts in the first place. Armin is most significant there because he did exactly that. He went from someone who was so scared for himself other people died for him to someone who willingly went to his death to save others and actually followed through. Even now in the story he's sticking to the idea of standing up and risking himself to save lives despite the fact that he could very well remain safe on the Island and benefit from the Rumbling.

The logical consequence of this line of thought is that the only moral option for Eldians of Paradis is to consent to their own genocide for the good of the world. Their choices besides going with the Rumbling included being killed off, slowly dying out and watching their society crumble (and maybe get invaded anyway), or holding the entire world hostage for an indefinite amount of time with the possibility they get attacked anyway. There are innocent victims on both sides of the conflict. You can't go purely by the numbers here and tell some of them they don't get to be safe and should just accept being killed for the good of the world.

Yes, the Scouts decided to sacrifice their lives to stop the Rumbling. But not only their lives are on the stake; if they succeed, their families and friends may die too.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

The stalemate involves Historia feeding herself to her own children. Something Eren wouldnít stand for

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



No, because the choice is "accept the inevitable" which is the thing AoT has always presented as a wrong idea. It is why Eren is literally trapped by the inevitable.

"We have to do this or we die" is accepting you have no freedom. Which seems to have had Armin is saying to Eren.

Yes, they may die if they don't use the Rumbling, but Eren has already shown limitations in his foresight. He believes the choice is genocide or bust but by doing that he has become the thing he hated.

Beyond that: the manga repeated emphasizes the Eren is murdering innocent children and civilians. I don't think any morality accepts "I have to murder all these babies because they might grow up to kill me" as justified. Especially since by the Rumblings nature it is targeting everyone in the world. It isn't just preemptive murder. It is killing people who have nothing to do with anything.

The Eledens shouldn't have to make that choice but Erens response was to inflict the worst outcome for them onto everyone else in the world with no choice at all.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





hatty posted:

The stalemate involves Historia feeding herself to her own children. Something Eren wouldnít stand for

Yep.

Eren even explicitly calls out that he's fine with sacrificing his life. But not Historia's. The cycle of children killing parents is the thing he refuses to accept.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


Levi seeing his dead comrades... not a good omen for him based on how that went for Erwin and Hanji.


Also did one of the previous chapters explain why Eren and Zeke* couldnít just touch back in Marley? They were plotting together, Zeke had his plan and Eren wanted to double cross him and rumble. Not sure what the hold up was.

*e: phone corrected this to Zeneca

yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 24, 2021

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Eren was still looking for another option while he was in Marley.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006


My leftism is so defined by opposing liberals with reactionary twittershit that I will gleefully simp for the fourteen words propagandist born and bred by America's degenerate bluebloods within the darkest temples of the Central Intelligence Agency.


now that everyone is against Titan Hitler's Redemption Arc, I hope it happens

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


yronic heroism posted:

Also did one of the previous chapters explain why Eren and Zeke* couldn’t just touch back in Marley? They were plotting together, Zeke had his plan and Eren wanted to double cross him and rumble. Not sure what the hold up was.

Yeah, it's not explicitly explained. I think from Eren's perspective it's just "That's not what his future memories told him". However, that doesn't explain why Zeke wouldn't demand they do it then and there.

My best guess is that even Zeke's sterilization plan relied on a partial Rumbling, which required the world to mobilize first so that Eren could crush all of their armies all at once. Additionally, Eren and Zeke would be crushed along with Liberio and Marley if they had activated it then. From Zeke's point of view, they needed to survive to pass on their titans so as to maintain the threat of the Rumbling until all Eldians die off peacefully. Therefore, he and Eren had to wait until they were both on Paradis and then a little while longer (a month or so) so that the world gathers their armies into easily flattened targets.

One could argue that Zeke could have insisted that they sterilize the Eldians immediately and then activate the partial Rumbling later, but maybe they were reluctant to meddle with such powerful magic (because that's what it is) more than once.

wedgie deliverer
Oct 2, 2010



Not entirely sure how it will happen, but my guess is that the final resolution will revolve around defeating Eren then placing all the blame for the Rumbling on him and the Yeagerists. The rest of the world knows that Eren led a coup against the rightful Eldian royal family, which had renounced all war, then installed a military dictatorship he manipulated into war against the rest of the world. The rest of Paradis can then place all the blame for the violence on the Yeagarists and offer them up as an offering of peace, alongside the destruction of the Titan powers. It would be a nice parallel to the post WW2 settlements that seem to be influencing Isayama.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


eh, doesnít seem realistic to me. if that route didnít end the titan curse and miraculously erase thousands of years if hatred, the subject of Ymir would be turboscrewed by turbocharged racism as soon as the dust settled.

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

A little off topic but is it possible that Ackermans are incapable of killing shifters? Mikasa had a clear chance to kill Reiner and Berthold (two chances to kill Bert). Levi had a chance on Reiner and multiple opportunities against Zeke. Both of them had plenty of motivation and neither are the type to hesitate or make significant mistakes when it comes to killing. This would play into Eren acting with obvious disgust towards Mikasa during their last conversation as well as the concept of inescapable fate. Given what we know from the opening panels of the manga it seems like one way or another Mikasa will be in front of Eren in the penultimate moment - the question is whether she's there administering the killing blow to Eren or if she's shielding him from it.

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


Super Rad posted:

A little off topic but is it possible that Ackermans are incapable of killing shifters? Mikasa had a clear chance to kill Reiner and Berthold (two chances to kill Bert). Levi had a chance on Reiner and multiple opportunities against Zeke. Both of them had plenty of motivation and neither are the type to hesitate or make significant mistakes when it comes to killing. This would play into Eren acting with obvious disgust towards Mikasa during their last conversation as well as the concept of inescapable fate. Given what we know from the opening panels of the manga it seems like one way or another Mikasa will be in front of Eren in the penultimate moment - the question is whether she's there administering the killing blow to Eren or if she's shielding him from it.

I mean it's not like they've failed to kill shifters through lack of trying. The shifters usually just end up being saved by outside intervention.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Zeke's sterilization thing is so dumb because it just prolongs the misery of the self genocide. If he really wanted to apologize for Eldian existence he'd just command everyone to walk into the sea and that's it.

yronic heroism
Oct 31, 2008


bees x1000 posted:

eh, doesnít seem realistic to me. if that route didnít end the titan curse and miraculously erase thousands of years if hatred, the subject of Ymir would be turboscrewed by turbocharged racism as soon as the dust settled.

ďAll we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all Eldians.Ē

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


I miss when we only knew Zeke as "Monkey Business".

redsniper
Feb 15, 2012


Monkey Trouble

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


All the monkey names.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply