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mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





ImpAtom posted:

Yes? How is this even a question? It's generally considered pretty awful to decide to murder people in other countries because they might someday pose a risk to your country. A lot of people rightfully find the argument of "they're evil and bad and so we have to kill them all or they'll kill us" to be a disgusting and awful viewpoint to hold. Very few people are willing to accept atrocities committed against helpless people on the viewpoint of "but if I don't they might hurt my family."

That's not the point I'm trying to make. Yes murder is bad. The rumbling is objectively a horrific act. But at that point in the story, there were 3 possible outcomes:

1. Eren starts the rumbling, genocides the world
2. Zeke "genocides" all Eldians
3. The world army genocides all Paradsians

I'm trying to make the point that it is not unreasonable to expect Eren to pick #1 given these choices and his character's motivations. The entire point of the lead up to this decision is that they weren't able to find a better solution.

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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Those aren't the only three possible outcomes. We're even presented with a plan where Historia inherits the beast titan and passes it on. There are tons of other possibilities too involving talking to other nations or showing that you can rumble but not going through with it. Are they risky? Sure. But this isn't a trolley problem.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Feb 4, 2021

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Conspiratiorist posted:

Yes, they're people too. They even have names. Killing them is an evil act.

But I will not condemn Eren for trying to save Historia. He's been sufficiently fleshed out to possess engaging and even sympathetic motivations for doing so, and so now that he's made his choice, I want to see it play out.

That genuinely makes no sense. It's like saying Anakin Skywalker was totally justified in murdering a bunch of kids because he wanted to save Padme. Like even Dune, which is probably the closest analog to AoT in concept, had the precognative actions of its protagonist be horrible in the service of preventing the end of life, not in driving humanity to extinction with the end of all other life on the planet.

It can be an interesting story to see someone go that far but saying they are justified and in the right is absolutely not what any story of this type is aiming for. It shows you why and how terrible decisions can be made, but it doesn't show you an innocent child being horrifically crushed to death and expect you to think it's a good justified thing.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


No Wave posted:

There were other plans that could maybe have saved her but killing every human on the planet was the only sure thing Eren could think of without talking to anyone else about it.

Absolutely, and I love it.



Eren: "Head empty. Must advance."

But seriously, he really tried. He wasn't smart enough to come up with an alternative, but he was smart enough to know if he even hinted that going full genocide was on the table his friends would immediately stop him, and possibly prevent the future which he prophetically knew would kind of work out. So the Rumbling was the consequence, and I've loved it every step of the way.

Yes, that was a pun.

Kild
Apr 24, 2010


Conspiratiorist posted:

I also want Ymir freed but that's entirely up to her.

Who do you think Historia's baby is gonna be

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





No Wave posted:

Those aren't the only three possible outcomes. We're even presented with a plan where Historia inherits the beast titan and passes it on. There are tons of other possibilities too involving talking to other nations or showing that you can rumble but not going through with it. Are they risky? Sure.

That isn't a solution, it is just kicking the can down the road to have some future generation make the decision, along with all the risks of assassination, coups, etc. The world isn't going to like Eldia any better after you point a gun to their heads, and Magath/Tybur were already preparing to destroy Paradis before Eren even attacked them.
This is post-rumbling but the points Jean makes still apply in the MAD scenario. All it takes is for one combination of the inheritors of the Titans to have a change of heart.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





mightygerm posted:

That's not the point I'm trying to make. Yes murder is bad. The rumbling is objectively a horrific act. But at that point in the story, there were 3 possible outcomes:

1. Eren starts the rumbling, genocides the world
2. Zeke "genocides" all Eldians
3. The world army genocides all Paradsians

I'm trying to make the point that it is not unreasonable to expect Eren to pick #1 given these choices and his character's motivations. The entire point of the lead up to this decision is that they weren't able to find a better solution.

Well, there's also the 50 year plan Hange was betting on, but that was a major longshot, and it involved enslaving Historia and her descendants until Paradis was on par with the rest of the world.

But yeah. Eren not being able to accept any of the plans and being desperate for something, anything else was kind of the point of the scene with him and Hange in prison. If there was a way out without sacrificing Historia, Eren would cling to it like a drowning man. But she doomed the world to save him. Hardly a surprise he'd return the favor.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

I just donít want any power of love and friendship can conquer all stuff

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



mightygerm posted:

That isn't a solution, it is just kicking the can down the road to have some future generation make the decision, along with all the risks of assassination, coups, etc. The world isn't going to like Eldia any better after you point a gun to their heads, and Magath/Tybur were already preparing to destroy Paradis before Eren even attacked them.
This is post-rumbling but the points Jean makes still apply in the MAD scenario. All it takes is for one combination of the inheritors of the Titans to have a change of heart.


Yes, it has risks, but "it has risks" doesn't justify taking the path of murdering everyone to minimize risks. That's the kind of ridiculous-rear end argument that gets us "We should nuke (insert country here)and even if we don't it's totally justified to oppress them because it keeps us 'safe'"

Especially because Paradis is a real lovely place. It is a land like any other land filled with people, many of whom are genuinely awful. Even if you genocide the rest of the world that doesn't mean some horrific tyrant isn't going to take over as soon as Titans are no longer a threat, or a plague won't wipe out the entire population, or whatever. (Not to mention the untold horror that the world would become when every single place outside of one island is a horrific mess of pulped flesh and destroyed everything.) This is important because the first half goes out of its way to show us how lovely a place it can be.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


My extremely flat, small boy aside, it's not like Marley is the only place in the world that oppresses the poo poo out of Eldians. In fact they're the place in the world that is nicest to Eldians. The world has had at least 100 years to deal with the usurpation of Eldian world power and they have collectively decided that Eldians are vermin barely worth treating better than garbage, so a stomping we will go

Eej fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Feb 4, 2021

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


It should be telling enough that Annie's reaction upon realizing that even if they stopped the Rumbling it wouldn't be soon enough to prevent Marley from being annihilated was "That's it. The Eldians are hosed forever."

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


ImpAtom posted:

Yes, it has risks, but "it has risks" doesn't justify taking the path of murdering everyone to minimize risks. That's the kind of ridiculous-rear end argument that gets us "We should nuke (insert country here)and even if we don't it's totally justified to oppress them because it keeps us 'safe'"

Especially because Paradis is a real lovely place. It is a land like any other land filled with people, many of whom are genuinely awful. Even if you genocide the rest of the world that doesn't mean some horrific tyrant isn't going to take over as soon as Titans are no longer a threat, or a plague won't wipe out the entire population, or whatever. (Not to mention the untold horror that the world would become when every single place outside of one island is a horrific mess of pulped flesh and destroyed everything.) This is important because the first half goes out of its way to show us how lovely a place it can be.

No one is saying it justifies anything, they're saying you can understand the place he came from and how he made the decision.

We know it's terrible, but it was a choice entirely within Eren's character to make. He was never going to sacrifice Historia, it was never in his nature to accept that outcome. He acknowledges that and the large part of his inner conflict was questioning why bother help any of the people he saw being killed if he's going to end up killing them anyway.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Eej posted:

My extremely flat, small boy aside, it's not like Marley is the only place in the world that oppresses the poo poo out of Eldians. In fact they're the place in the world that is nicest to Eldians. The world has had at least 100 years to deal with the usurpation of Eldian world power and they have collectively decided that Eldians are vermin barely worth treating better than vermin, so a stomping we will go

This is a pretty lovely attitude to have because it denies the rest of the world is something besides Mindless Evil. The world at large had to deal with Titans being used as weapons of horrific mass destruction for years. It is only relatively recently that Titans stopped being the fantasy equivilent of a nuclear weapon that devours your children. The manga explicitly goes out of its way to show what the rest of the world had to deal with and it is actually genuinely loving terrible. I don't think anyone would argue they were totally justified in killing all the Elidens because of this but the same goes in reverse.

Marley is a terrifying evil country which committed unthinkable atrocities but it didn't just do it to the Elidians. Your argument appears to be that they all deserve to suffer and die because they were also victims.

Asuron posted:

No one is saying it justifies anything, they're saying you can understand the place he came from and how he made the decision.

We know it's terrible, but it was a choice entirely within Eren's character to make. He was never going to sacrifice Historia, it was never in his nature to accept that outcome. He acknowledges that and the large part of his inner conflict was questioning why bother help any of the people he saw being killed if he's going to end up killing them anyway.

But people are arguing it's justified and unavoidable and he was right to do it and everyone else deserves to die because the world is bad. There's a difference between "Eren's motivation is understandable for the character" and "Eren should win because he is in the right."

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Feb 5, 2021

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

All gloves were off once Sasha left the series



The bloodlust won't quit now that the potatoes are gone

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





ImpAtom posted:

Yes, it has risks, but "it has risks" doesn't justify taking the path of murdering everyone to minimize risks. That's the kind of ridiculous-rear end argument that gets us "We should nuke (insert country here)and even if we don't it's totally justified to oppress them because it keeps us 'safe'"

That's a ridiculous strawman. The world is already preparing to invade Paradis. Hange & co already tried to treat with other nations, and only Hizuru was open to it (to gain money). The Eldians outside of Marley are treated even worse than the ones inside Marley. Even the pro-eldian groups inside Marley blamed their ills on the island devils.
So yeah, I think there are gigantic risks to the 50 year plan. Remember, the Paradisians military situation only gets worse in the 50 year plan. Right now even regular Titan powers are still somewhat effective, once technology improves, a missile strike or bombing run could wipe out the civilian population of Paradis even if the rumbling was activated as a deterrent. The only, only hope for a long-term solution is diplomatic, and given the current state of the world, you can't make the assumption that it will get any better.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


Whatever happens, the titan curse has got to go. I would appreciate that particular problem being resolved.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Eren also perfectly understands that Paradis is inhabited by people, who are as capable of being as cruel to each other as anyone in the outside world. Remember he saved Mikasa from slavers who murdered her family? Remember the cynical views on human conflict he shared with Pixis before they launched the operation to retake Trost?

He isn't looking to save humanity. He would never expect a paradise to be the consequence of his actions.

But Isayama carefully lays out just how real the threat of literal annihilation Paradis faces is, and how the best alternative others can come up with calls for the sacrifice of someone Eren personally cares deeply about, and so he won't abide that. He ultimately finds himself boxed in, and from that position would rather save Paradis than let it be destroyed for the sake of sating the world's hatred, and so he makes his choice.

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





Conspiratiorist posted:

Eren also perfectly understands that Paradis is inhabited by people, who are as capable of being as cruel to each other as anyone in the outside world. Remember he saved Mikasa from slavers who murdered her family? Remember the cynical views on human conflict he shared with Pixis before they launched the operation to retake Trost?

He isn't looking to save humanity. He would never expect a paradise to be the consequence of his actions.

But Isayama carefully lays out just how real the threat of literal annihilation Paradis faces is, and how the best alternative others can come up with calls for the sacrifice of someone Eren personally cares deeply about, and so he won't abide that. He ultimately finds himself boxed in, and from that position would rather save Paradis than let it be destroyed for the sake of sating the world's hatred, and so he makes his choice.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



mightygerm posted:

That's a ridiculous strawman. The world is already preparing to invade Paradis. Hange & co already tried to treat with other nations, and only Hizuru was open to it (to gain money). The Eldians outside of Marley are treated even worse than the ones inside Marley. Even the pro-eldian groups inside Marley blamed their ills on the island devils.
So yeah, I think there are gigantic risks to the 50 year plan. Remember, the Paradisians military situation only gets worse in the 50 year plan. Right now even regular Titan powers are still somewhat effective, once technology improves, a missile strike or bombing run could wipe out the civilian population of Paradis even if the rumbling was activated as a deterrent. The only, only hope for a long-term solution is diplomatic, and given the current state of the world, you can't make the assumption that it will get any better.

You called it a strawman and then in fact made the exact argument you said is a strawman? "We can't be sure something bad won't happen and thus we're justified in engaging atrocities for our own protection." Yes, it is an extremely lovely situation to be in but saying that a lovely situation justifies murdering every other person in the world to assure no risk is bonkers. You can't point to the fact someone might kill you as justification to destroy their entire country. Self-defense doesn't extend to murdering people who might potentially want revenge for your atrocities.

Like let's be honest here. Eren's plan isn't just "stop the danger to Paradis." He's specifically setting out to kill anyone who might want revenge. The lesson he took from what happened to him isn't "This is inexcusable" but "The Colossal Titan hosed up by not killing me and I'm not going to make the same mistake." There's a reason the key image of the anime season puts him in the position of the Colossal Titan in the iconic shot and why the Colossal Titans are what he is using to obliterate the world. He's become the thing he used to hate and now considering it justified.

Eren's motivations and personality and understandable, I'm not saying they're not. I'm saying it's really weird to see a flawed, damaged, broken character who is quite literally trapped in a prison of his own future and go "yeah man that guy has the right idea"

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





ImpAtom posted:

You can't point to the fact someone might kill you as justification to destroy their entire country. Self-defense doesn't extend to murdering people who might potentially want revenge for your atrocities.
Like let's be honest here. Eren's plan isn't just "stop the danger to Paradis." He's specifically setting out to kill anyone who might want revenge. The lesson he took from what happened to him isn't "This is inexcusable" but "The Colossal Titan hosed up by not killing me and I'm not going to make the same mistake." There's a reason the key image of the anime season puts him in the position of the Colossal Titan in the iconic shot and why the Colossal Titans are what he is using to obliterate the world. He's become the thing he used to hate and now considering it justified.
These are the same things, in this very specific scenario though. Lets say they just destroy Marley's military and leave the rest of the civilians alone. Do you think those countries will just go 'oh well, guess we lost?' All of the soldiers and bases they trample over have people living there,families, people who will want revenge on the Eldians. Its only going to increase the hatred of Eldians if the titans pop out every couple years to squash whatever meager military the world builds up. Then the Paradisians just become the oppressors, the Eldian Empire of old. The cycle of hatred continues, with some neo-Marley eventually gaining enough power to stop them. Some ethnic grudges in the real world have lasted centuries, even millenia, and people in the real world don't have the supernatural ability to turn into monsters.

I think we're talking past each other here. I'm also making the point that Eren's motivations and personality and understandable, and given the choices he had at the moment, it is not unreasonable to have started the rumbling. It is still a horrific act of mass murder, it being understandable doesn't change that.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


ImpAtom posted:

Like let's be honest here. Eren's plan isn't just "stop the danger to Paradis." He's specifically setting out to kill anyone who might want revenge. The lesson he took from what happened to him isn't "This is inexcusable" but "The Colossal Titan hosed up by not killing me and I'm not going to make the same mistake."

I mean... yes? Obviously.

ImpAtom posted:

Eren's motivations and personality and understandable, I'm not saying they're not. I'm saying it's really weird to see a flawed, damaged, broken character who is quite literally trapped in a prison of his own future and go "yeah man that guy has the right idea"

Eren's priorities are saving Historia & Paradis. Within his context, he couldn't come up with an acceptable alternative. Nobody else in the story could come up with an acceptable alternative. You can't come up with an acceptable alternative. I can't come up with an acceptable alternative.

So I won't judge Eren for the choice he made.

JahRoo
Oct 22, 2010




ImpAtom posted:

Eren's motivations and personality and understandable, I'm not saying they're not.

This is what everyone youíre shouting at is saying.

ImpAtom posted:

I'm saying it's really weird to see a flawed, damaged, broken character who is quite literally trapped in a prison of his own future and go "yeah man that guy has the right idea"
This is not

Gibbering
May 24, 2014

:catdrugs:


Conspiratiorist posted:

So I won't judge Eren for the choice he made.

I sure do. I judge the gently caress out of him.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


My judgement is that Eren? Owns

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Eej posted:

My judgement is that Eren? Owns

Eren Yeager is the Coolest Guy.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


JahRoo posted:

This is what everyone youíre shouting at is saying.

This is not

There are a couple of people like that in the anime thread, maybe that's who they're thinking of?

I know whenever I see them cheer him on as if what he's doing is good creeps me out quite a bit.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


chiasaur11 posted:

Eren Yeager is the Coolest Guy.

I want Eren to step on me and call me an animal.

tweet my meat
Oct 2, 2013

yospos


The world is a cruel place, but the world can also be a cool place when it features giant fleshmech deathmatches. Much to consider.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



mightygerm posted:

These are the same things, in this very specific scenario though. Lets say they just destroy Marley's military and leave the rest of the civilians alone. Do you think those countries will just go 'oh well, guess we lost?' All of the soldiers and bases they trample over have people living there,families, people who will want revenge on the Eldians. Its only going to increase the hatred of Eldians if the titans pop out every couple years to squash whatever meager military the world builds up. Then the Paradisians just become the oppressors, the Eldian Empire of old. The cycle of hatred continues, with some neo-Marley eventually gaining enough power to stop them. Some ethnic grudges in the real world have lasted centuries, even millenia, and people in the real world don't have the supernatural ability to turn into monsters.

I think we're talking past each other here. I'm also making the point that Eren's motivations and personality and understandable, and given the choices he had at the moment, it is not unreasonable to have started the rumbling. It is still a horrific act of mass murder, it being understandable doesn't change that.

That is correct, they have. Nobody however is going to argue how it's justified for one side to kill the other off to make sure they're safe. It just straight-up is not considered anything but wrong and evil.

Beyond that though this isn't just Marley or even just militarized nations. Everyone, everywhere, is going to die. I feel like it's hard to emphasize that enough. There might be some people up in the fantasy north pole and they're dead too. Some fantasy Amish who keep away from the world and don't even know what a Titan is? They're getting killed. A group of oppressed people who are not the Eldians but have their own history of misery and suffering? They're dead too. People who have nothing to do with any of this are going to die. Eren isn't just killing the people who posed an active threat. He's killing anyone who might ever pose an active threat even if they had absolutely nothing to do with anything because they're on the other side of the world and dealing with their own poo poo.

The only way that logic works is if you don't care about anyone else in the world except the people whose names you know. And that is absolutely true of Eren who has viewed his enemies as People From Outside for as long as he knows. It is understandable why he feels that way and it is a coherent and logical place for the plot to go. But it isn't something a viewer or a person in-setting should actually be okay with because it demands the idea that not only is Eren justified in killing the entire population of the nations that threatened his nation but any other nation on the planet as well.

Again the point here isn't that Eren's motivation and personality aren't well-structured. What he has done makes total sense for him. But that doesn't mean the viewer should agree that he's doing the right thing. When you're arguing that Eren is "wiping away the world's corrupted history" and whatnot that goes beyond saying his motivations are sensible for the character.

JahRoo posted:

This is what everyone you’re shouting at is saying.

This is not

Dude, you can go back in the thread and find plenty of examples. There's at least one person who says that killing everyone on Earth is entirely justified because Earth is a place where what happened to Historia can happen and thus deserves to be destroyed and it's far from the only example.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Please don't quote KC.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

Conspiratiorist posted:

I want Eren to step on me and call me an animal.

Alas, there's the catch--you won't be alive long enough post-squish to hear him insult you.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Eh, sorry, I'll just drop it. It just really makes my stomach twist when I see those arguments but it ain't gonna solve anything. (Not saying nobody can reply, just that I'm going to try to step away from the conversation.)

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Heck what makes my stomach twist is that the "good" route is to shikata ga nai a woman being forcibly turned into a living incubator of WMDs for the good of the state

Eustace
Feb 26, 2009


If I was caught in an endless cycle of ethnic violence I simply would not genocide the entire world

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

I'll fully admit to just wanting to see what kind of ending this series chooses.



I dont think there's a good ending available, and that it seems intentional makes things interesting.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Eren should win because it's the ending that makes sense for the story, but acknowledging this is not an ethical endorsement of his actions

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





The amount of support I've been seeing for the Pro-Yeagerists and Eren killing literal millions is honestly a little bit worrying.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


Especially considering Eren himself hates what he's doing.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Bleck posted:

Eren should win because it's the ending that makes sense for the story, but acknowledging this is not an ethical endorsement of his actions

Nah, I don't think that's what the narrative is building towards. We've spent the last few chapters with the rest of the surviving main cast as they try to stop the Rumbling. It would be unsatisfying and annoying if they didn't at least partly succeed. If it turns out I'm wrong I accept that, but I still wouldn't think that's the right choice for the story.

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hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

Bleck posted:

Eren should win because it's the ending that makes sense for the story, but acknowledging this is not an ethical endorsement of his actions

Yeah he canít be stopped unless he actually wants to be stopped barring some asspullery. And if he wants to be stopped why even start

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