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Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




ImpAtom posted:

Eren was not defeated by a really big gun. Assuming he is actually defected he was defeated by people actively rejecting his call to genocide and the fear of the other.

Yes, but he was also literally defeated (again, possibly) by a really big gun. And then a child soldier that is a nuke.

The intent of the characters is not in question, here - my issue is that the only people who were capable of physically actualizing their rejection of Eren's genocidal retribution are child soldiers (note that we get several scenes of other world militaries doing nothing at all to Eren, despite their best efforts). Even the Marleyans who climactically come to the aid of the Eldian military children and actually manage to accomplish anything are also military children.

I think it should at least be acknowledged that, regardless of the author's intent or what flowery prose the characters use to refer to humanity's relationship to war, the story seems to holistically be poised to - perhaps inadvertently! - be saying that the only way to stop fascism is to have really good soldiers who are good at war. You know, child ones.

I can't help but feel like that undercuts the message, just a tad.

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Kild
Apr 24, 2010


it's a shonen manga

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Bleck posted:

Yes, but he was also literally defeated (again, possibly) by a really big gun. And then a child soldier that is a nuke.

The intent of the characters is not in question, here - my issue is that the only people who were capable of physically actualizing their rejection of Eren's genocidal retribution are child soldiers (note that we get several scenes of other world militaries doing nothing at all to Eren, despite their best efforts). Even the Marleyans who climactically come to the aid of the Eldian military children and actually manage to accomplish anything are also military children.

I think it should at least be acknowledged that, regardless of the author's intent or what flowery prose the characters use to refer to humanity's relationship to war, the story seems to holistically be poised to - perhaps inadvertently! - be saying that the only way to stop fascism is to have really good soldiers who are good at war. You know, child ones.

I can't help but feel like that undercuts the message, just a tad.

That is not remotely what it is saying but I get the feeling you're dancing around a "actually all anime is fascism" argument.

The protagonist being child soldiers is shown to be *unambiguously bad* They are acting because they have no other choice, not because child soldiers are superior. And the argument of "If someone is trying to genocide people sometimes you must fight against them" isn't "ACTUALLY BIG GUNS ARE THE BEST!"

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 14, 2021

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

ImpAtom posted:

That is not remotely what it is saying but I get the feeling you're dancing around a "actually all anime is fascism" argument.


Pththya-lyi posted:

Anyway, I wonder what other manga or anime series are jingoist. Sailor Moon? She is a Pretty Soldier, after all.

I'm still waiting :colbert:

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

I too, wish that the colossal dinosaur skeleton titan could be dealt with via ethical means that didn't involve the conscription of children. Maybe this whole time, all we really needed was unity...

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




ImpAtom posted:

The protagonist being child soldiers is shown to be *unambiguously bad*

The way to unambiguously show that child soldiers are bad would be to have the god-power child soldier who has internalized fascism succeed in destroying the world. Having a bunch of other child soldiers stop him makes it seem like being a child soldier is okay as long as you're doing the right thing with your child soldier training. The point is that it makes it ambiguous, which actually has a meaning other than emphasis, and that's a thing worth criticizing.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Bleck posted:

The way to unambiguously show that child soldiers are bad would be to have the god-power child soldier who has internalized fascism succeed in destroying the world. Having a bunch of other child soldiers stop him makes it seem like being a child soldier is okay as long as you're doing the right thing with your child soldier training. The point is that it makes it ambiguous, which actually has a meaning other than emphasis, and that's a thing worth criticizing.

Uh what the gently caress. No, the problem with child soldiers isn't that they may go crazy and murder everyone. It is that it is abusive and horrible and monstrous. What you are arguing is that it should ... what? Say that all child soldiers should be executed because they are irreparably broken and can only destroy?

Buzzsaw Roomba
Feb 13, 2012

Christ, what an asshole.


if I were Isayama I would simply have the characters VOTE to end the violence

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




ImpAtom posted:

Uh what the gently caress. No, the problem with child soldiers isn't that they may go crazy and murder everyone. It is that it is abusive and horrible and monstrous.

It's both, obviously? Surely you can acknowledge that child soldiers existing at all is bad, and the fact that they would also go on to presumably kill other people is, also, bad?

ImpAtom posted:

What you are arguing is that it should ... what? Say that all child soldiers should be executed because they are irreparably broken and can only destroy?

I'm arguing that, thematically, the ending to the story should follow through on showing the consequences of making people internalize fascist ideology (i.e Eren kills almost everybody). The ending that this chapter seems to suggest is in the cards will be that fascist ideology - that child soldiers - aren't really that bad as long as they fight for a good cause.

I don't know where you're from, but in the country I live in, "war is an unavoidable part of humanity, and it is good and noble to be a soldier who sacrifices themselves for a just cause" is more or less exactly the rhetoric that our military uses for recruiting. I'll give you a hint to what our military has gone on to accomplish - it isn't anti-fascism.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Bleck posted:

It's both, obviously? Surely you can acknowledge that child soldiers existing at all is bad, and the fact that they would also go on to presumably kill other people is, also, bad?


I'm arguing that, thematically, the ending to the story should follow through on showing the consequences of making people internalize fascist ideology (i.e Eren kills almost everybody). The ending that this chapter seems to suggest is in the cards will be that fascist ideology - that child soldiers - aren't really that bad as long as they fight for a good cause.

I don't know where you're from, but in the country I live in, "war is an unavoidable part of humanity, and it is good and noble to be a soldier who sacrifices themselves for a just cause" is more or less exactly the rhetoric that our military uses for recruiting. I'll give you a hint to what our military has gone on to accomplish - it isn't anti-fascism.

No, it isn't both. Child Soldiers are the victims of abuse and they are not beasts that need to be put down. The abuse they suffer is horrible but holy poo poo I can't believe you're unironically making the argument that they are better off dead.

As for the second part: The manga literally addresses that mindset and how it is used to convince people to throw themselves into a meatgrinder for the people who exploit them. It is not what is being shown here and you have to ignore huge chunks of the manga to read it that way. That being said "being willing to fight against something terrible even if it costs your life" is actually something positive. Being manipulated by a racist imperialists military to do so is not, but that doesn't mean there is no inherent worth is choosing to stand up against something terrible even if it is at personal cost to you.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


ImpAtom posted:

That is not remotely what it is saying but I get the feeling you're dancing around a "actually all anime is fascism" argument.

The protagonist being child soldiers is shown to be *unambiguously bad* They are acting because they have no other choice, not because child soldiers are superior. And the argument of "If someone is trying to genocide people sometimes you must fight against them" isn't "ACTUALLY BIG GUNS ARE THE BEST!"

They're either trolling or not arguing in good faith, it's the only explanation for the arguments Bleck is trying to make.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




ImpAtom posted:

No, it isn't both. Child Soldiers are the victims of abuse and they are not beasts that need to be put down. The abuse they suffer is horrible but holy poo poo I can't believe you're unironically making the argument that they are better off dead.

I'm... not? Are you assuming that I think the child soldiers should be killed because I said thematically it makes sense for Eren to win? Even though Eren's goal is to basically kill everybody but the child soldiers? Right after repeatedly, condescendingly, implying that I basically haven't been reading the story?

ImpAtom posted:

The manga literally addresses that mindset and how it is used to convince people to throw themselves into a meatgrinder for the people who exploit them. It is not what is being shown here and you have to ignore huge chunks of the manga to read it that way.

The work should be examined holistically. Portraying military propaganda as a negative is arguably canceled out by then showing the heavily propagandized as the only tool that saves humanity from near extinction.

It's like having a story where people develop a Death Star, while saying out loud "maybe this is too much power for humans to handle," and then showing the Death Star heroically blowing up Planet Bad Man. Again - it's kind of ambiguous. It undercuts itself.

ImpAtom posted:

That being said "being willing to fight against something terrible even if it costs your life" is actually something positive. Being manipulated by a racist imperialists military to do so is not, but that doesn't mean there is no inherent worth is choosing to stand up against something terrible even if it is at personal cost to you.

"Just don't be propagandized," got it. Easy as pie. I'll let everyone know.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012



Bleck posted:

I don't know where you're from, but in the country I live in, "war is an unavoidable part of humanity, and it is good and noble to be a soldier who sacrifices themselves for a just cause" is more or less exactly the rhetoric that our military uses for recruiting. I'll give you a hint to what our military has gone on to accomplish - it isn't anti-fascism.

Since you're bringing up the country you live in like it's putting you on some kind of pedestal, I think it's fair to point out that you live in the same country I do, Canada, AKA America-lite.

And thank you very much, Bleck, for affirming that in the Civil War and World War II, the only appropriate measures would've been for the union and allies to roll over or just talk things out and any other means would simply be inappropriate.

TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Feb 14, 2021

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Bleck posted:

It's both, obviously? Surely you can acknowledge that child soldiers existing at all is bad, and the fact that they would also go on to presumably kill other people is, also, bad?


I'm arguing that, thematically, the ending to the story should follow through on showing the consequences of making people internalize fascist ideology (i.e Eren kills almost everybody). The ending that this chapter seems to suggest is in the cards will be that fascist ideology - that child soldiers - aren't really that bad as long as they fight for a good cause.

I don't know where you're from, but in the country I live in, "war is an unavoidable part of humanity, and it is good and noble to be a soldier who sacrifices themselves for a just cause" is more or less exactly the rhetoric that our military uses for recruiting. I'll give you a hint to what our military has gone on to accomplish - it isn't anti-fascism.
can you please make a new thread to discuss your galaxy brained takes on the message of attack on titan because it's pretty clear nobody in this thread actually wants to deal with you past the "accosted by rambling nutjob wandering around half-naked in the street, screaming until you have to pay attention to him" level of response

Eustace
Feb 26, 2009


Nah let him post, this is honestly more entertaining than most anime threads

wedgie deliverer
Oct 2, 2010



https://fuku-shuu.tumblr.com/post/162652398937/snk-news-isayama-hajimes-bessatsu-shonen-august

quote:

Ultimately, I don’t think the series passes judgment on what is “right” or “wrong.” For example, when I read Furuya Minoru’s “Himeanole,” I knew society would consider the serial killer in the story unforgivable under social norms. But when I took into account his life and background I still wondered, “If this was his nature, then who is to blame…?” I even thought, “Is it merely coincidence that I wasn’t born as a murderer?” We justify what we absolutely cannot accomplish as “a flaw due to lack of effort,” and there is bitterness within that. On the other hand, for a perpetrator, having the mindset of “It’s not because I lack effort that I became like this” is a form of solace. We cannot deny that under such circumstances, the victims’ feelings are very important. But considering the root of the issue, rather than evaluating “what is right”…to be influenced by various other works and their philosophies, and to truthfully illustrate my exact feelings during those moments - I think that’s what Shingeki no Kyojin’s ending will resemble.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

I still want to know if Sailor Moon is fasc

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Pththya-lyi posted:

I still want to know if Sailor Moon is fasc

Sailor Moon is actually pro-monarchy. The protagonists are all princesses of kingdoms who were overthrown by by a sorceress from Earth whose only crime was falling in love with nobility The entire story is about said nobility reclaiming their rightful place and paving the path for their thousand-year neo-empire by slaying anyone who might challenge them with godlike powers.

(translator's note: i do not actually believe this.)

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Buzzsaw Roomba posted:

if I were Isayama I would simply have the characters VOTE to end the violence

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


Pththya-lyi posted:

I still want to know if Sailor Moon is fasc

Sailor Moon is a spinoff of Codename: Sailor V, which starred a character who would later becomes Sailor Venus. She canonically hates cops.
Sailor Moon is antifa.

Beefstew fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Feb 14, 2021

serious gaylord
Sep 16, 2007

what.


I love it when dumb people think they're smart.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


I am once again asking you to consider the difference between text and subtext, depiction vs endorsement, and the constant tension that is the spectacle.

stoic665
Nov 8, 2009


All this talk about jingoism and war is distracting from the deeper message which is that the real titans are the friends we made along the way

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





Ep 69 thoughts:

The pacing continues to be slow. They haven't even finished all of 107 yet. I'm starting to wonder if they will even get to 119 at this pace.
They made Eren seem much angrier in his scenes defending Historia, made the Farmer seem like even less of a character, and cut the hooded figure scene. Could it be?
They also made the wine scene SUPER obvious.
However, the anime has this trend of cutting scenes that hint at future reveals - like cutting the Colt/Zeke baseball scene, Zeke's reaction to Tybur's speech, the Zeke spinal fluid/ackerman lines, and a couple other minor things.
Mappa seems to have un-retconed Mikasa's tattoo, which was replaced with the quilt in the WIT scenes. This will probably confuse anime-onlies.
It looks like they are moving all the Gabi storyline to one episode instead of splitting it up.
Lots of extra dialogue cut with the Zeke flashback, Armin's convo, and the MPs.

mightygerm fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Feb 14, 2021

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


I thought the wine was obvious too with all the closeups on it and the dramatic music when Niccolo was in the basement giving the volunteer another bottle, but I'm looking at discussions online and noone is even noticing it.

It makes sense, you have absolutely no reason to think the wine is spiked and even if it was spiked they wouldn't know what it was spiked with.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


if they put the hooded figure scene in, I imagine it'll go with Historia talking to Eren about having a child.

Not Keyser Soze
Mar 7, 2007

Endless Celestial Sex

American audiences are very accustomed to characters drinking alcohol constantly and commenting on how much they enjoy [Product Placement] spirits so most people aren't likely to connect the different wine scenes. The one scene with Niccolo I imagine some people might guess that some kind of poison-based assassination is about to occur but that's it.

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


Asuron posted:

I thought the wine was obvious too with all the closeups on it and the dramatic music when Niccolo was in the basement giving the volunteer another bottle, but I'm looking at discussions online and noone is even noticing it.

It makes sense, you have absolutely no reason to think the wine is spiked and even if it was spiked they wouldn't know what it was spiked with.

I have an anime only friend who called it out immediately as being "whatever Zeke does to let him scream people into titans" but otherwise I've seen nothing about it.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

The anime seemed to never mention how Zeke does his titan party trick, probably so it can be an even bigger reveal later

whalestory
Feb 9, 2004

hey ya'll!



Pillbug

hatty posted:

The anime seemed to never mention how Zeke does his titan party trick, probably so it can be an even bigger reveal later

"I wipe back to front, while standing"

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


I vaguely recall that the manga drew more attention to the wine as "danger this stuff is dangerous!" but it was so long ago and I was in the process of catching up.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Looks like the anime crowd is jumping onto the "Eren is the baby daddy" wagon harder than what I remember the manga folks did back when, and with even less to go on off for it, too.

It's probably the delivery when Eren objects to the plan to have Historia inherit the Beast that did it - it leaves a stronger impression.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



It's kind of funny to see anime only people to call Mikasa a 'Disney Princess', with the revelations of the last episode. To be honest, I had forgotten about that plot point already, because well, it doesn't go anywhere.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

One tiny detail of the last episode: They changed the Hizuru lady drooling over exploiting Paradis' resources to her licking her lips, and made it a touch more subtle.

I wonder why (i admit i noticed this because i was looking forward to seeing it animated).

reitetsu
Sep 27, 2009

Should you find yourself here one day... In accordance with your crimes, you can rest assured I will give you the treatment you deserve.


hatty posted:

The anime seemed to never mention how Zeke does his titan party trick, probably so it can be an even bigger reveal later

They showed it in the first episode of this season, where he yells after they do the titan drop. However, those people are all drugged and hosed up, and iirc previously Zeke's lied and said his spinal fluid mix paralyzes people, so the idea that you could stuff it in wine and have people be a-okay until whenever is hinted at but not much more.

I wonder if they'll keep the Saul Goodman titan in the anime lol

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





reitetsu posted:

They showed it in the first episode of this season, where he yells after they do the titan drop. However, those people are all drugged and hosed up, and iirc previously Zeke's lied and said his spinal fluid mix paralyzes people, so the idea that you could stuff it in wine and have people be a-okay until whenever is hinted at but not much more.

I wonder if they'll keep the Saul Goodman titan in the anime lol

They cut the part about Zeke's spinal fluid in the anime. I've seen a lot of anime-onlys think that Zeke only needs to scream to turn Eldians into Titans.

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡


So one thing that sticks out and bothers me: How did Shadis get Grisha into the walls without anyone finding out? Every way he had to go back in was operated by the garrison. The only thing that comes close to explaining this is there's a general order to take in people found outside the walls and don't make news of it. Otherwise Grisha should have been detained by kenny & co.

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 23 hours!


Frionnel posted:


I wonder why (i admit i noticed this because i was looking forward to seeing it animated).

Probably for subtlety’s sake, make her a little less cartoonishly greedy.

JahRoo
Oct 22, 2010




Lamebot posted:

So one thing that sticks out and bothers me: How did Shadis get Grisha into the walls without anyone finding out? Every way he had to go back in was operated by the garrison. The only thing that comes close to explaining this is there's a general order to take in people found outside the walls and don't make news of it. Otherwise Grisha should have been detained by kenny & co.

A bunch of Garrison soldiers are shown to be drunk and bad at their jobs (especially pre-wall destruction), so I imagine if the Scouts commander told them to forget about it, most wouldn't bat an eye (or remember it the next day anyways).

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Saagonsa
Dec 29, 2012

It means everything.


Lamebot posted:

So one thing that sticks out and bothers me: How did Shadis get Grisha into the walls without anyone finding out? Every way he had to go back in was operated by the garrison. The only thing that comes close to explaining this is there's a general order to take in people found outside the walls and don't make news of it. Otherwise Grisha should have been detained by kenny & co.

Grisha was put in jail because going outside was illegal. Shadis just got him out iirc

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