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Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


bees x1000 posted:

somebody please provide answers to these dumb questions

Isn't it literally as simple as "get Historia pregnant so she can't be titanized while the Eren-Zeke plan goes through?"

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bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Eej posted:

Isn't it literally as simple as "get Historia pregnant so she can't be titanized while the Eren-Zeke plan goes through?"

there's a hell of a lot of somethings that turn out to be nothings when that's all there is to it.

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





In It For The Tank posted:

The only answer I can think of is that something must have happened behind the scenes that resulted in a dramatic change in the ending. That's the only way to make sense of the final chapter - and, indeed, much of the final arc.

It really feels like Editorial pulled him into their offices and went "yo, you remember this is a shounen series, right" causing him to course correct hard.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


bees x1000 posted:

there's a hell of a lot of somethings that turn out to be nothings when that's all there is to it.

I think the Eren involvement is so that you know that Historia had some agency in the decision instead of literally being used as a broodmare for titans

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Vanderdeath posted:

It really feels like Editorial pulled him into their offices and went "yo, you remember this is a shounen series, right" causing him to course correct hard.

"I'm sorry, I just don't see a natural place for lesbian demon orgies."

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






Vanderdeath posted:

It really feels like Editorial pulled him into their offices and went "yo, you remember this is a shounen series, right" causing him to course correct hard.
hope this happened and the anime is a chance to course correct with extreme fan backlash justifying this hypothetical isayama

i honestly think everything is mostly okay except for the very last chapter

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Eej posted:

I think the Eren involvement is so that you know that Historia had some agency in the decision instead of literally being used as a broodmare for titans

OK, but then Isayama does stuff like this

I can't read 130 without seeing a deeper relationship between the two, and how committing to this 'love inside the walls' is going to cause a lot of pain (Historia faking a relationship, Eren mutilating himself to commit to the lie, Mikasa's feelings being ignored, worldwide genocide, etc.)

call me crazy but this stuff should not be part of the story if Historia ch.139 was the plan

Mikasa's character would've been a lot better, too, if she hadn't ended in the exact same place she started. Clinging to Eren.

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 9, 2021

JahRoo
Oct 22, 2010




It always felt like we were heading towards a Leto II style ending but the way we got there feels really bad. After marinating on it a little while I'm not quite as disappointed but there's still a few things bothering me.

Leading up to this I imagined that triggering the rumbling, and the reveal of the big worm thing as the source of titan powers, were just setting up for this to be the way titan powers are ultimately destroyed, and I thought that made sense. Eren's left with no good options, he can kick the can down the road with the 50 year/controlled rumbling plan, he can go along with Zeke's euthanasia plan, or he can go with the one that he has seen glimpses of via the attack titan. The result of this plan is the destruction of the titans (goal of Zeke's plan) but it saves the people he cares about (kind of the goal of the first plan).

I think the idea that Eren is forced to go through with this plan because it's the only one that forces his friends to fight him and expose the worm thing is a fairly reasonable solution given the other constraints of the story. But what ruins it is tying to the whole thing back to Ymir's "love" for the first king and that actually Mikasa was the secret all along for some reason. Also the entire conversation with Armin is terrible, and Historia's character is just thrown out the window.

I think if the chapter was like 20% different it would have felt like a slightly rushed, but fairly reasonable ending.

ChaseSP
Mar 25, 2013



I remember reading an article about what would happen if mass deforestation continued and holy gently caress, eren just pretty much hosed over the earth for millions of years.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190911-what-would-happen-if-all-the-worlds-trees-disappeared

Highlights include, all forested areas turning into mass deserts, massive disruption of the water cycle due to trees no longer pulling moisture of the ground quicker than normally would do, mass death in the ocean via acidic carbon caused by carbon sinks instead releasing massive amounts of carbon.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

WELCOME TO THE DUNGEON

Is it odd that I'm just glad that this manga is over so that I never have to think about it again?

(Yes, I know the final anime season is coming up later in the year, but still, this goddamn manga had become so unfun)

hatty
Feb 28, 2011



Pork Pro

I was planning a reread but probably won’t bother. Might not even buy the last two volumes digitally to complete the set. I just have a bad taste in my mouth after the ending.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






making out with hitler, feeling his lips and scarf

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Maybe it’s a good thing that Berserk will never end...

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

I'm here


I mean something definitely changed because it wasn't that long ago the final panel was revealed and it was absolutely not what we got.

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


You know, re-reading some of the pages of the official translation here, uh... I am not entirely convinced that Eren really made an informed decision here either with all this Rumbling poo poo. Yeah he says he would have done it anyway, but having the Founding Titan discombobulate your mind so much where you see the past, present, and future simultaneously doesn't sound like someone was playing with a full deck upstairs. Like, at all.

Ccs posted:

Maybe it’s a good thing that Berserk will never end...

[Berserk Spoilers]: "Thank you Griffith, you became a mass murderer for our sake..."

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




MechaX posted:

You know, re-reading some of the pages of the official translation here, uh... I am not entirely convinced that Eren really made an informed decision here either with all this Rumbling poo poo. Yeah he says he would have done it anyway, but having the Founding Titan discombobulate your mind so much where you see the past, present, and future simultaneously doesn't sound like someone was playing with a full deck upstairs. Like, at all.


[Berserk Spoilers]: "Thank you Griffith, you became a mass murderer for our sake..."

Hahahahaha

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012

h

Where is the official translation? I've only seen scans.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




TheKingofSprings posted:

The sad reality is that serialized fiction is not often meant to end which is why it is so often terrible and disappointing when it finally does

It’s almost like the intent of serialized fiction is to keep getting your money instead of creating something good.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




So... quick check: Did Eren ever make an intelligent decision after getting into the Survey Corps? The most heroic and best choice he ever made was when he saved Mikasa's life as a kid and he worked harder than he had to to get into the Survey Corps, leading some talented folks into it along the way, but... what else did he actively decide to do that had good results? Prior to the basement, Eren's life happened to him. It wasn't until afterward that Eren happened to the world. He was taking direction from others until he thought he didn't have to anymore, which is when everything went to poo poo. In the end, he was good at fight, but was he ever any good at smart?

Which, to me, just means he was never supposed to have made good decisions once he had a semblance of actual power. He was never going to have a good master plan in the end. In a way, this ending just reinforces how stupid he was and how much he really should have relied on his friends (mostly Armin) to make better decisions for him. This ending is disappointing but.. in a way, not a surprise because Eren is disappointing.

So unless I'm forgetting something pivotal, Eren was just a dumb kid who never learned the lessons of how to deal with love, friendship, and respect which in turn led him to never learn the lessons of fate, war, and global ecological destruction. So to sum up, Eren's loving stupid and that's why we got the ending we did.

Also while writing this I realized that the concept of the Zelda Triforce kinda perfectly encompasses the trio. Armin is Wisdom, Mikasa is Strength, and Eren is Courage. Except Eren's courage was so great that he was an idiot but hey, I've seen Link roll into a tree a dozen times in a row, jump into a lava pit, and forget to throw his bombs before they blew up so I wouldn't really say it's too far off character.

DaveKap fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Apr 10, 2021

hatty
Feb 28, 2011



Pork Pro

I can't find them but I remember Isayama released official stats and Eren I think had 3/10 intelligence and it explains a lot

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




I just don’t understand why Titans had to be born from the literal farts of a bug and why the Titan genesis story apparently had to be the schlockiest thing I’ve heard of.

Once the series started having to provide answers instead of questions, it ceased to be interesting. I remember being loving fascinated by the story and where it could possibly be going in its early days (up to the end of season 2 of the anime), and then it started to suck once it got to the basement and I gave up on it. At that point the mystery started really dying off, and with no mystery, there was no reason to keep up with it.

Like, I’d ask for more details on poo poo like “what’s the deal with that one talking Titan from the anime bonus ep” and “what’s with all the Norse mythology influence“ and “what makes Mikasa so special anyway” but based on what I’ve seen of the ending, I don’t think it’s worth finding out.

Yikes.

Still mad that Ymir+Historia got sidelined and didn’t become a thing.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

The concept of a slave being given godlike powers but still staying in the mindset of a slave because it's all she's ever known was a fascinating concept and so of course it had to be annihilated by this chapter

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


it is rather convenient that so much of the bad is confined to the final chapter, will make it easier for the anime to change things if they want to.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

Honestly to me the Basement reveal + Marley arc is by far the most interesting part of the manga and i barely remember the very early stuff. It all feels like a prelude to the parts i really care about.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Ape Escape and the Grisha flashbacks is where I started to just not care anymore.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011



Pork Pro

I don’t get why Eren said he doesn’t know why he wants to do the rumble when we got a pretty good look at his motives in 130 and 131. Did he want to lie to Armin so he wouldn’t think he influenced him?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



hatty posted:

I don’t get why Eren said he doesn’t know why he wants to do the rumble when we got a pretty good look at his motives in 130 and 131. Did he want to lie to Armin so he wouldn’t think he influenced him?

The impression I got is that Eren threw out a lot of justifications for an act that, at the end of the day, boiled down to "I am really really angry and wanted to hurt people." Whatever his stated motivations were at the end of the day he was a broken hosed up kid who wanted to save his friends and hurt everyone else.

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020

by Pragmatica


hatty posted:

I don’t get why Eren said he doesn’t know why he wants to do the rumble when we got a pretty good look at his motives in 130 and 131. Did he want to lie to Armin so he wouldn’t think he influenced him?

Eren led an unexamined life. He was genuinely shocked when Zeke casually noted Mikasa was probably just in love with him. The thing he needed most he never got was therapy so he could have even a single moment of introspection of all the poo poo in his head and in his life.

El Pipila
Dec 30, 2006
I am invincible; I have a stone on my back!

Strawberry Pyramid posted:

Eren led an unexamined life. He was genuinely shocked when Zeke casually noted Mikasa was probably just in love with him. The thing he needed most he never got was therapy so he could have even a single moment of introspection of all the poo poo in his head and in his life.

Men will literally stomp on 80% of the world and destroy the global ecosystem instead of going to... wait, church?

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Imagine how different this would've gone if Eren just got laid. His incel rage caused the rumbling.

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020

by Pragmatica


Put another way, Eren was if Shinji Ikari if Shinji was prone to violent outbursts instead of passive-agressive self-loathing.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Huh.

Just... huh.

I don't know what in the hell to do with this information, and I'm not saying my past "huh" moments have come to anything, not with this ending, but I just saw a post analyzing the ending and... this is weird. It's deeply weird.

Armin, Eren, and Mikasa feeling out of character's been discussed at length already, as has Historia's complete sidelining and Ymir's whole stupid thing. But looking closer, it seems like almost everyone's been done dirty.

Annie, the cynic who only really cares about two people in the whole drat world, is sobbing over Eren more than his closest friends. Reiner's got the paper sniffing. Jean's scene has him noted for vanity, acting like the "old Jean", like Floch suggested. Levi gets a perfect sendoff... then appears for a couple panels later on to just confirm he's alive, with a look of bitter resignation on his face. Grisha tells baby Eren he's free, which he knows is a lie. Paradis, which was always bitterly divided at the best of times, is now fully unified on the Yeagerist train, with Hitch prominently shown as a supporter, despite her being one of the people who notably opposed them in the earlier arcs. The focus character in the shot is even Surma, who had a whole scene where he was going to turn on them before Keith said he should keep his powder dry until he had an opportunity to actually make a difference. And to top it all off, Connie is the one giving political insight when discussing their odds, bringing up the reasonable points based on Historia's past actions.

Connie.

The moron.

Call me paranoid, but it feels like you don't get that kind of spread on accident. Especially not with the supposed 'last panel' being tossed in so half-assedly.

If I'm allowed to go into wild speculation here, I'll note that the chapter ends with a note from the editorial department, not Isayama. And that after Eren had been noted (both in story and in interviews) as not being remotely romantically interested in Mikasa for years, his romantic love for her is suddenly central in the last two chapters.

gently caress it, I feel like a lunatic even saying all of this, but going on to form a whole crazy story, based largely on (again) unearned speculation I'd break it down like this.

1) Isayama has an ending ready in rough draft form. It pays off earlier buildup, brings everything together, and probably has a lot in common in the broadest strokes with this ending. (The Kenny chapter reprinted here has the idea of peace through the stronger party showing mercy, so I'm pretty sure a full rumble was off the table for most of the manga's runtime. Eren was going to lose, and Armin was going to win.)
2) As the ending comes up, editorial starts to get cold feet about Eren and Historia. (Look, that setup is pretty blatant. If I'm speculating in general, I'm going to speculate specific.) Mikasa's the postergirl, Mikasa and Eren is the dominant ship, you're not risking merch sales by breaking them up. This is their Big Hit.
3) Isayama and editorial try to negotiate. This results in Mikasa kissing Eren's severed head.
4) 139 comes. Negotiations break down. Isayama goes full malicious compliance, giving an ending that does everything he was asked and ends in a marketable way... in the shittiest way possible.

At least, that's a theory. If it's true, we'll probably never know, but I'm going to be very interested in any post-series interviews to see if they do anything to blow holes in it or to reinforce it.

As for Eren... well, a problem for me with the ending, and a lot of talk based on it, is that Eren wasn't the same kid for a long time. Ever since the back half of uprising, he'd torn himself apart, gotten much more introspective, and generally started growing as a person, even as he broke and got worse. 130 and 131 were full of Eren as someone who analyzed his own actions and his place in the world. His Ramzi scenes were all about that, with Eren realizing just how much of a half-assed piece of poo poo he was. What's more, those scenes added onto earlier ones, clarifying how Eren was like Reiner, why he was so desperate for Hange to give him a better answer, why he wanted to drive Mikasa away. Eren made more sense with all of that.

This chapter makes Eren less understandable. His scenes talking about his mother's death now are just nonsense garbage, since he's the one who killed her. His scenes with Historia are completely irrelevant and wastes of pagetime. None of it makes sense.

He's certainly not like Shinji.

Shinji is a boss who grows out of his issues with help from others, gets over his crush on his sister, saves everyone, and then gets together with a hot older woman.

Eren kills hundreds of millions for ill defined reasons, is trapped in his issues until he dies, and never managed to deal with his sister's crush.

chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Apr 10, 2021

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020

by Pragmatica


Release the Ishiyama Cut, you cowards.

I just realized that the main trio were all in the wrong manga.

Armin wanted to be in Dr Stone.
Mikasa wanted to be a romantic comedy slice of life.
Eren wanted to be in a boxing manga.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Strawberry Pyramid posted:

Release the Ishiyama Cut, you cowards.

I just realized that the main trio were all in the wrong manga.

Armin wanted to be in Dr Stone.
Mikasa wanted to be a romantic comedy slice of life.
Eren wanted to be in a boxing manga.

Nah, Eren wanted to be in something like Tokyo Ghoul. Annie wanted to be in a boxing manga.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






plz rip asunder this ending i want some end of evangelion poo poo tia

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Is a saint not entitled to the skin of his foot?






the most grimdark ending possible like all eldians turn into permatitans and everyone dies except for the shifters and ackermans and then armin turns to eren and says thanks for being a mass murderer *CREDITS* would be better than this

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009






and to all the titans, congratulations

Bell_
Sep 3, 2006

Tiny Baltimore





Mulva posted:

I'm glad everyone lost and literally nothing was accomplished, it really makes all the debate people had about where the ending was going funny in retrospect. I don't think anyone guessed "nowhere".

I should have put my money on this. I should always put my money on this.

Wonder Egg Priority was still a bigger disappointment for me.

Josuke Higashikata
Mar 7, 2013




"Eren, go home. We love you, you're very special."

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Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Bell_ posted:

I should have put my money on this. I should always put my money on this.

Wonder Egg Priority was still a bigger disappointment for me.

I thought WEP was the hot new poo poo of the last season, did it also drop the ball super hard?

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