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GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011




To add to this conspiracy theory, Isayama's editor (Shintaro Kawakubo) used to be chief editor of Bessatsu Shonen until around august of last year. After that, he stepped down from the position and continued to be just Isayama's editor. This is the man who took Isayama in right after he walked out of Shueisha who'd only publish him if he accepted changes to characters and story.

If someone at Kodansha has been pressuring Isayama to change the ending, it likely started around this point. So around chapter 130.

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Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





Captain Invictus posted:

I thought WEP was the hot new poo poo of the last season, did it also drop the ball super hard?

WEP's production has been an absolute shitshow, causing staff and animators to work in a perpetual death march that's lead to hospitalizations. One of the producers had to be taken to the hospital twice after collapsing at work.

The final episode for it won't be releasing until June due to how terribly the animators and production folks have been overworked.

Fake Edit: I sincerely hope MAPPA isn't doing the same because they are absolutely full to bursting with projects on their plates, to the point where I wonder if AoT's final cour is going to suffer because of it. It must truly suck being an animator.

Vanderdeath fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Apr 10, 2021

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




WEP hasn’t officially ended yet. I stopped watching after episode 8 so I can binge the rest but it sounds as if they needed and emergency episode in June to conclude things and even then people doubt it could work in such a small amount of time.

Back on topic there are so so many Titans that appear in the end of this series. Is mappa gonna have to cg them all? That’s such a different scale of workload compared to this season where there was only like 5-6 titans to cg.

lih
May 15, 2013


Captain Invictus posted:

I thought WEP was the hot new poo poo of the last season, did it also drop the ball super hard?

yeah it had an extremely strong start and then completely fell apart in the last third or so. its production was also truly disastrous as others have mentioned

Hace
Feb 13, 2012

<<Mobius 1, Engage.>>


yall ok

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

JahRoo posted:

It always felt like we were heading towards a Leto II style ending but the way we got there feels really bad. After marinating on it a little while I'm not quite as disappointed but there's still a few things bothering me.

Leading up to this I imagined that triggering the rumbling, and the reveal of the big worm thing as the source of titan powers, were just setting up for this to be the way titan powers are ultimately destroyed, and I thought that made sense. Eren's left with no good options, he can kick the can down the road with the 50 year/controlled rumbling plan, he can go along with Zeke's euthanasia plan, or he can go with the one that he has seen glimpses of via the attack titan. The result of this plan is the destruction of the titans (goal of Zeke's plan) but it saves the people he cares about (kind of the goal of the first plan).

I think the idea that Eren is forced to go through with this plan because it's the only one that forces his friends to fight him and expose the worm thing is a fairly reasonable solution given the other constraints of the story. But what ruins it is tying to the whole thing back to Ymir's "love" for the first king and that actually Mikasa was the secret all along for some reason. Also the entire conversation with Armin is terrible, and Historia's character is just thrown out the window.

I think if the chapter was like 20% different it would have felt like a slightly rushed, but fairly reasonable ending.

It does makes sense he would choose a path were both his friends and Paradis get to survive and the rest of humanity is not completely wiped

But I think the killing of 80% was way too much. Killing 80% of the world population while destroying (presumably) almost 80% of the planet ecosystem would be pretty much the end of the humanity, anyway. Might just go ahead and murder them all

And than theres the fact all his friends seems to think it was really a reasonable idea. And them the whole Mikasa being the way out for Ymir just dont make any sense at all

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Apr 10, 2021

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

I’m in the denial stage where I’m blaming the editor

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Wish there was transparency in the development and writing process of large scale projects like these. I really want to know what went wrong.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP



hatty posted:

I’m in the denial stage where I’m blaming the editor

Certainly makes more sense
Its like your taxi driver swerving hard into oncoming traffic after a pleasant ride.

Prowler
May 24, 2004



Each time the Paths came up, I lost more interest. Time travel leaves room for way too many plot holes, contrivances, and logic that is either hard to follow, or is just faulty based on established rules in the world. I am less apprehensive if it feels less like a crutch and more of a fascinating storytelling device.

Here, we're left to fill in the blanks with Eren's motivations based on what he knows (which is not well communicated, so there's a ton of speculation and a lot of "that doesn't make sense"), and what the story has established about the rules/power of the Paths (which, again, are not well established).

So, in my mind, the ending was setting itself up for failure. To me, it would be, at most, a good ending, because there would inevitably be a lot of loose ends and unanswered questions. What we got, on the other hand...sigh.

El Pipila
Dec 30, 2006
I am invincible; I have a stone on my back!


Jesus Christ, the kid's an idiot

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

Always has been

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




It’s a pity because I didn’t really enjoy AoT too much until the political stuff started happening in season 3. The first section was more a zombie story with giants instead of the undead, and without the fear of contagion. Then the events covered in season 4 ramped things up even more, suggesting a really good message about the cycle of violence. Granted, it was never going to pull off all the themes it wanted. Saying oppression is bad and showing how the Eldians are oppressed makes us sympathize with them, but it doesn’t square with how/why oppression actually happens because it gives the Eldians deadly magical powers. But it does make an interesting commentary on how oppressed groups are brainwashed to fight for their oppressors and hate themselves.

But the Rumbling really bungled things. Eren uses the power that everyone feared his ethnic group for to carry out mass genocide and then gets, if not completely vindicated, at least told that it was sort of necessary for Eldian survival and to get rid of their “curse”? What conclusions are we meant to draw from this? What does it tell us about the reason people are oppressed? Is the curse of the titans meant to symbolize anything? The themes just fall apart.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Rebuild of Attack on Titan, maybe?

Jiro
Jan 12, 2004



Link to official issue out yet?

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Ccs posted:

It’s a pity because I didn’t really enjoy AoT too much until the political stuff started happening in season 3. The first section was more a zombie story with giants instead of the undead, and without the fear of contagion. Then the events covered in season 4 ramped things up even more, suggesting a really good message about the cycle of violence. Granted, it was never going to pull off all the themes it wanted. Saying oppression is bad and showing how the Eldians are oppressed makes us sympathize with them, but it doesn’t square with how/why oppression actually happens because it gives the Eldians deadly magical powers. But it does make an interesting commentary on how oppressed groups are brainwashed to fight for their oppressors and hate themselves.

But the Rumbling really bungled things. Eren uses the power that everyone feared his ethnic group for to carry out mass genocide and then gets, if not completely vindicated, at least told that it was sort of necessary for Eldian survival and to get rid of their “curse”? What conclusions are we meant to draw from this? What does it tell us about the reason people are oppressed? Is the curse of the titans meant to symbolize anything? The themes just fall apart.

Yeah, after knowing how it ends, it hard to avoid the conclusion that the biggest unforgivable mistake Marley (and the rest of the world) committed was not murdering all Eldians as soon as possible. Only that could have avoided the cataclysm

hatty
Feb 28, 2011




Pork Pro

The old king said if they invaded they’ll gently caress their poo poo up but did they listen? Nooo

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Elias_Maluco posted:

Yeah, after knowing how it ends, it hard to avoid the conclusion that the biggest unforgivable mistake Marley (and the rest of the world) committed was not murdering all Eldians as soon as possible. Only that could have avoided the cataclysm



He was right. Eren was the humanity's enemy.

JahRoo
Oct 22, 2010




Elias_Maluco posted:

It does makes sense he would choose a path were both his friends and Paradis get to survive and the rest of humanity is not completely wiped

But I think the killing of 80% was way too much. Killing 80% of the world population while destroying (presumably) almost 80% of the planet ecosystem would’ve be pretty much the end of the humanity, anyway. Might just go ahead and murder them all

And than theres the fact all his friends seems to think it was really a reasonable idea. And them the whole Mikasa being the way out for Ymir just dont make any sense at all

Agreed. If the goal was to trigger the climactic battle that ends the titans, there was no need for 80% of humanity to be wiped out too. That creates a bunch of dangerous implications.

But the amount of distance that Eren covered is basically an arbitrary amount that Isiyama got to decide. He could have easily just said “oh Eren only made it to the shores of x country before getting stopped” and then you can argue that the whole goal was the battle and not actually humanity’s destruction.

Like I don’t think the structure of the ending is incompatible with the story, but all the details that flesh it out are bad.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


JahRoo posted:

But the amount of distance that Eren covered is basically an arbitrary amount that Isiyama got to decide. He could have easily just said “oh Eren only made it to the shores of x country before getting stopped” and then you can argue that the whole goal was the battle and not actually humanity’s destruction.

I got the impression that Marley was one of the countries nearest to Paradise, and Eren was killed before the titans marched through the totality of it. So unless I'm forgetting something (I may be) or unless all of humanity is just living in a concentric circle around the island, the 80% number is a retcon from the immediately previous chapters.

change my name
Aug 27, 2007

Legends die but anime is forever.

RIP The Lost Otakus.



Yeah it doesn’t even make sense, there’s no way the colossal titans could have gotten very far in the few days it took for the alliance to kill Eren.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Someone said here a few days before the last chapter was out that the author planned a more bitter end but for some reason decided to switch for a more "hopeful " one

What we got is an ending where Eren caused a unprecedented and realistically irrecoverable apocalypse and yet this is indeed kinda presented as a hopeful ending

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



change my name posted:

Yeah it doesn’t even make sense, there’s no way the colossal titans could have gotten very far in the few days it took for the alliance to kill Eren.

I was thinking along those lines just some minutes ago! They should have destroyed Marley and a pair of surrounding countries, but there was not enough time for more. The world is bigger than that.

Mecca-Benghazi
Mar 31, 2012



Jiro posted:

Link to official issue out yet?

It's out on comixology and you can get it for free by signing up for a trial of comixology unlimited.

Anyway the 80% line is this in the official

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Schwarzwald posted:

I got the impression that Marley was one of the countries nearest to Paradise, and Eren was killed before the titans marched through the totality of it. So unless I'm forgetting something (I may be) or unless all of humanity is just living in a concentric circle around the island, the 80% number is a retcon from the immediately previous chapters.

I guess there were the Wall Titans who marched, who were all in Marley, and the Wall Titans who either power-walked or just ran across the remainder of the globe off screen

Mecca-Benghazi posted:

It's out on comixology and you can get it for free by signing up for a trial of comixology unlimited.

Anyway the 80% line is this in the official


I don't have the comixology app open but there's another page where Eren also says "I wiped out 4/5ths of society"

MechaX fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 10, 2021

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

lih posted:

yeah it had an extremely strong start and then completely fell apart in the last third or so. its production was also truly disastrous as others have mentioned

This isn't too surprising to me. My only other exposure to that show's director is the early 00's J-drama "Strawberry on the Shortcake," and unless he changed his style significantly since then I'd expect the show to have a lot of intense melodrama that doesn't really lead anywhere satisfying.

Bread Set Jettison
Jan 8, 2009



Rebuild of AOT: Same conclusion, but Armin literally calls Eren scum and an idiot for destroying the world to get what he wants and everyone is mad at him for literally dooming the world to get rid of a curse. Also make Ymir be in love with her children and not her abuser makes it better and equally tragic and makes even more sense. Also make historias baby and story matter for gently caress sake.

I literally do not understand why the last 3-4 issue felt like a different writer

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


I'm on the editorial interference conspiracy bandwagon

Eren and Historia were the 'love behind the walls', Mikasa was supposed to actually let go and move on, more of the group was supposed to die (Levi probably), Ymir loving Fritz, Eren killing his mom through paths, Annie of all people crying over Eren,

it's all screwy :colbert:

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Apr 10, 2021

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020

by Pragmatica


I see we've reached the "Indoctrination Theory" stage of the grieving process.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Can someone post the official "thanks for committing genocide, Eren!" panel here? Please, thank you.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


tinfoil is in vogue :yotj:

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


It was a lovely ending that clogged up a series that was not above turding it up on occasion. Let the grieving continue.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Strawberry Pyramid posted:

I see we've reached the "Indoctrination Theory" stage of the grieving process.

I prefer to think of it as the "two of the writers literally locked themselves away from the rest of the team and wrote the ending with no input" stage.

Because, for ME3, that was the case. We actually got the explanations on what happened behind the screen, and when we got the revised ending, it was still not great, but it was flawed in a way that fit with the rest of the game, because the whole team was involved and they used the usual process.

This chapter is bad in ways that don't match with Isayama's usual writing, so it's logical to think that there was something going on behind the scenes.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


DaveKap posted:

Can someone post the official "thanks for committing genocide, Eren!" panel here? Please, thank you.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




If you want to compare endings of things, I'll say this: Attack on Titan ended better than Legion and Mr. Robot. :colbert:

Edit: Okay now imagine that Armin's face, instead of being that of a crying man, is actually just a flat :what: face. Then everything he's saying is sarcastic. I like that idea.

DaveKap fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 10, 2021

Office Pig
Aug 1, 2010

YAY!



This might be the greatest out of context manga page of all time.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Maybe the original ending was just Eren destroys all the world outside Paradis, which than becomes a militaristic tiranny under King Eren II, son of Eren and Historia, who wipes the awful deeds of his father from everyone's minds , rebuilds the wall and makes them believe, again, that the walls are the last bastion of humanity. Back to square one except this time they are really all there is left of humanity

But someone convinced him it was too horrible and he changed some details because it was too late to change the whole thing. And that's how we got what we got

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Office Pig posted:

This might be the greatest out of context manga page of all time.

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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




All the fans really need to do is write a new final chapter and commission a doujinshi artist with a good handle on Isayama's stlye to illustrate it.

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