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Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




The Notorious ZSB posted:

Im not saying it's illogical. I'm saying it sucks and detracts from the narrative he'd built dropping it in the final chapter.
I think it was to explain why Mikasa killing Eren was a big deal. Like, why would that act end the two thousand year old titan curse? Because the personification of the titan curse had some connection to the emotions involved.

Ymir and Fritz weren't really characters, just vague thematic justifications for the way the world was. "Someone once felt this way, and that's why the world sucks."

I'm not saying it's not lovely in any number of ways, but I'm glad people are discussing it because I think I'm finally starting to understand what the heck was supposed to be happening in this last chapter at least.

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Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020


Kinda surprised Historia chat hasn't been more of a thing, since the last chapter either constitutes character assassination or an extremely uncharitable depiction of queer people.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Unsure exactly how Historia counts as an uncharitable depiction of queerness

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


still annoyed that Ch.130 and parallels like this actually mean nothing

bees x1000 posted:

this means nothing


Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020


Eej posted:

Unsure exactly how Historia counts as an uncharitable depiction of queerness

Maybe she allowed the Rumbling to happen and the Paradis junta to fall to fascism because she wanted revenge on the world for taking Ymir away from her and trying to force her into being a cannibal brood mare for the sake of her people, respectively?

We don't know how her convo ended, but maybe Eren really did convince her she is "The Worst Girl in the World" in the end. She seems pretty happy as queen of Nazi-land at the end there.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Strawberry Pyramid posted:

Maybe she allowed the Rumbling to happen and the Paradis junta to fall to fascism because she wanted revenge on the world for taking Ymir away from her and trying to force her into being a cannibal brood mare for the sake of her people, respectively?

We don't know how her convo ended, but maybe Eren really did convince her she is "The Worst Girl in the World" in the end. She seems pretty happy as queen of Nazi-land at the end there.

She chose to be on Eren's side, and either he made good on his proposal to wipe her memories or she eventually came to terms with it.

Either way what Historia had always wanted was to be a regular girl living a regular life, and it seems she's achieved that to the degree that is possible without altogether forsaking her responsibilities - without the Power of the Titans she's truly, fully just a figurehead monarch, but she's intent on leveraging whatever political power that position gives her to reach for peace between Paradis and the rest of the world.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Strawberry Pyramid posted:

Maybe she allowed the Rumbling to happen and the Paradis junta to fall to fascism because she wanted revenge on the world for taking Ymir away from her and trying to force her into being a cannibal brood mare for the sake of her people, respectively?

If any of this is true it doesn't make her an uncharitable depiction of a lesbian or bisexual. If anything it falls into line with the rest of the manga as Isayama is pretty notable, especially for a Japanese author, in creating a long running serialized work where genders are fairly equal. He purposely avoids the hypersexualization rife in the medium he works in, has a pretty good spread of men and women in important roles in the story and doesn't really make a big deal of what kind of relationship Historia and Ymir have and neither does the rest of the cast.

If Historia canonically becomes the Worst Girl in the World then it's because that's just what Historia would do as a character, not because she's a Psycho Lesbian or whatever.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Eej posted:

If any of this is true it doesn't make her an uncharitable depiction of a lesbian or bisexual. If anything it falls into line with the rest of the manga as Isayama is pretty notable, especially for a Japanese author, in creating a long running serialized work where genders are fairly equal. He purposely avoids the hypersexualization rife in the medium he works in, has a pretty good spread of men and women in important roles in the story and doesn't really make a big deal of what kind of relationship Historia and Ymir have and neither does the rest of the cast.

If Historia canonically becomes the Worst Girl in the World then it's because that's just what Historia would do as a character, not because she's a Psycho Lesbian or whatever.

It's also relevant here that Freckles Ymir is probably the best person in the manga. Moral, empathetic, self-sacrificing, and intelligent, her surface rear end in a top hat behavior is a failed attempt to hide from her own native virtues.

Historia's role in the story went to poo poo, but I think that's mostly a product of the ending going to poo poo and ruining whatever thematic value the original plan gave her pregnancy.

DamnitGannet
Apr 8, 2007



Lesbians can have a little fascism as a treat

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I think it's pretty uncomfortable for a character to have a lesbian romance and then once that romance is killed (offscreen) to do literally nothing but sit around pregnant and marry the equivalent of a faceless video game NPC. Bisexual people exist but even for a bisexual person "Yep. Knocked up. Not going to be doing any of that important 'story' stuff now, just an object with no coherent narrative or plot of my own that doesn't revolve around my womb."

Saagonsa
Dec 29, 2012

It means everything.


Yeah the way Historia was handled was really bad. I was really hoping she'd be relevant in any sort of way, but as is there's no real defending it lol

Szmitten
Apr 26, 2008


The anime's interpretation of Historia's big moment with the music and the judo throw and the chains and everything was legitimately one of the coolest and most influential (for me) character driven things I've seen in a recent anime and her Woman-in-Dragon-Ball style decline loving sucks.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



There is interesting stuff hinted at in the last chapter about Historia moving behind the scenes politically trying to weaken the Yeagerists, but we won't ever seen anything about that.

DamnitGannet
Apr 8, 2007



Google just pushed this at me this morning. I can only imagine what these new pages consist of. I'd like to think they will clarify some things but I admit my expectations are low.

https://www.cbr.com/attack-on-titan-final-manga-add-new-story-pages/amp/

serious gaylord
Sep 16, 2007

what.


Its going to be 5 more pages of side characters thanking Eren.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





serious gaylord posted:

Its going to be 5 more pages of side characters thanking Eren.

Congratulations!

LITERALLY MY FETISH
Nov 11, 2010


It feels just as plausible to me that the final chapter sucks because the editor had less input than normal, rather than because he somehow just let the author go free for 140 chapters and only hosed with things in the last one.

Also the new 5 pages are just going to be the missing conversations between Eren and some other characters because the point of the last chapter is to try and make sympathetic hitler. That was the point of the time travel poo poo, because otherwise none of it is necessary to make a plot work here.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

It feels just as plausible to me that the final chapter sucks because the editor had less input than normal, rather than because he somehow just let the author go free for 140 chapters and only hosed with things in the last one.

138. And I'd assume that the editors would have more concern for the finale than for the previous chapters, not less.

Basically, your theory seems to be that, despite going through multiple editors, Isayama's style stayed consistent due to heavyhanded input, but then at the finish line, suddenly everyone went hands-off (despite the editors mentioning that they had at least the usual level of involvement this time).

Meanwhile, I think that Isayama either self-censored or had an editor lean on him more than usual for the finale, since that's a big make-or-break.

The editors doing the final comment rather than the writer feels a bit suspicious.

LITERALLY MY FETISH
Nov 11, 2010


chiasaur11 posted:

138. And I'd assume that the editors would have more concern for the finale than for the previous chapters, not less.

Basically, your theory seems to be that, despite going through multiple editors, Isayama's style stayed consistent due to heavyhanded input, but then at the finish line, suddenly everyone went hands-off (despite the editors mentioning that they had at least the usual level of involvement this time).

Meanwhile, I think that Isayama either self-censored or had an editor lean on him more than usual for the finale, since that's a big make-or-break.

The editors doing the final comment rather than the writer feels a bit suspicious.

Until we hear from some unimpeachable witness about it it's just guessing, but it's wild to me that people think the editors would just let the author of one of their big gems go wild for so many years and then only step in in the last 2 chapters and literally write the thing for Isayama. The idea is people want to blame editors, but this theory just doesn't really hold water. Isayama was the one who wanted to cut it to 139 chapters, and he's the one who wrote all of the chapters with dropped threads leading into this.

It seems like the most likely culprit of all of this was Isayama having changed his ending X months ago but still wanting to stick to 139 chapters instead of reevaluating how much time he'd need. A lot of the "the editors stepped in" seems to be the last defense for people who don't want to accept that their golden boy hosed something up. People make mistakes, even in the things they're really good at. No need to look for a conspiracy in all of this.

Basically, my theory is that neither extreme seems true or reasonable, and Isayama just flubbed in his chapter count and planning.

hatty
Feb 28, 2011



Pork Pro

I'm in the acceptance stage now when I've decided that Isayama is very indecisive and maybe watched too many movies with endings he liked and couldn't decide which one to be inspired by.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


I do feel that the superfriends failing to stop Eren would've been a stronger, if darker, ending.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




There’s evidence Isayama decided to change the ending to be more blockbuster-y back in 2017. I can hardly remember anything about the antagonist of Guardians of the Galaxy, he was one of those marvel villains like the Thor Dark World big bad that are pretty forgettable, so it doesn’t seem so wise to turn Eren into that.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




The Guardians of the Galaxy villain wanted to genocide his enemies because they're his ancient ancestral and cultural foe or something. We lack the full context for Ronan the Accuser's crusade, only that he believes himself to be the last vestiges of true Kree culture and that the deaths of Kree people in a previous war must be properly compensated for by the mass slaughter of the people they were at war with.

Which to be honest, is arguably a better motivation than what we appear to have gotten from Eren, if we apply it to Eren.

The victory of Guardians of the Galaxy is that they stop the planet from being destroyed, but probably didn't quite manage to save everyone (I imagine a couple of hundred to thousand died in the attack by Ronan on the planet in question), but they did so through teamwork and successfully overwhelming Ronan with the power he intended to use to destroy.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I forgot Ronan was Kree. Man, it was weird that most of the Kree have blue skin but then the few important characters in Captain Marvel just look like normal humans.

I don't really know what a Mist-esque ending would entail in terms of AoT. Probably more dead main characters.

Dias
Feb 20, 2011



I SURVIVED THE AWFUL BLOCK, AGDQ 2018



Ccs posted:

I forgot Ronan was Kree. Man, it was weird that most of the Kree have blue skin but then the few important characters in Captain Marvel just look like normal humans.

I don't really know what a Mist-esque ending would entail in terms of AoT. Probably more dead main characters.

I imagine it would be more of a Devilman ending, Armin and Mikasa probably die trying to stop Eren, so he's left alone and in despair.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I was generally pleased with the recent Devilman ending so I'd be okay with that.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


A Devilman esque ending would have been way more fitting imo, bring on that deep seated epiphany and the misery that comes with it after it's too late.

serious gaylord
Sep 16, 2007

what.


Lord_Magmar posted:

The Guardians of the Galaxy villain wanted to genocide his enemies because they're his ancient ancestral and cultural foe or something. We lack the full context for Ronan the Accuser's crusade, only that he believes himself to be the last vestiges of true Kree culture and that the deaths of Kree people in a previous war must be properly compensated for by the mass slaughter of the people they were at war with.

Which to be honest, is arguably a better motivation than what we appear to have gotten from Eren, if we apply it to Eren.

The victory of Guardians of the Galaxy is that they stop the planet from being destroyed, but probably didn't quite manage to save everyone (I imagine a couple of hundred to thousand died in the attack by Ronan on the planet in question), but they did so through teamwork and successfully overwhelming Ronan with the power he intended to use to destroy.

Wasn't 2017 Guardians 2 and the bad guy planet?

Although seeing Jean do a dance off to beat Eren would have been better than what we got.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



I've been hoping for a Devilman ending since the beginning of the rumbling. Even when things got, let's say, controversial in 138 I still thought it could be salvaged with a sufficiently depressing and tragic resolution.

It didn't happen.

DamnitGannet
Apr 8, 2007



Polygon has put out another article that is essentially 'see? Told you it was pro fascist' and I just

The World Inferno
Nov 26, 2017





it is really funny though how the story states in a throwaway line most of the worlds forests are gone as well as 80% of the population and the story spends zero time reconciling or acknowledging that damage.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





The World Inferno posted:

it is really funny though how the story states in a throwaway line most of the worlds forests are gone as well as 80% of the population and the story spends zero time reconciling or acknowledging that damage.

As I've said, the amount of tossed in dark stuff that doesn't get any focus to the point it's easy to just think of this as an ultra-happy ending just reinforces my "Isayama, either to please the readers or due to his editors leaning on him, abandoned things he was planning for the ending as recently as last chapter" instincts.

I'm sorry, but if you come to the end of a decade plus long best selling manga and don't even have a "See ya!" comment from the author, while the editors get a whole page to thank the reader for sticking with the manga?

That feels very, very off.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


DamnitGannet posted:

Polygon has put out another article that is essentially 'see? Told you it was pro fascist' and I just

Honestly, even if the last chapter had come out explicitly saying "HAHA YOU'VE ALL BEEN FOOLED, I, ISAYAMA, AM A BIG OL FASCIST AND FASCISM ACTUALLY RULES" directly to the reader, I would still consider AoT an anti-fascist work.

Because everything right up till the end has been showing the dangers of prejudice and hatred and seeing people as the 'other'. Even if Isayama tried to pull an about-face and make the ending suddenly fascist out of nowhere, there's just too much prior stuff to recontextualise. Everything built up in this series over a whole decade has been a failure to glorify fascism. So I'd be like, drat, way to make your world view look totally wrong, genius. I'll just be over here still enjoying the Gabi arc.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


DamnitGannet posted:

Polygon has put out another article that is essentially 'see? Told you it was pro fascist' and I just

Whatever issues I have with the ending, you can count on Polygon to continually be worse than even the worst ending Isayama could’ve dreamt up.

Asuron fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Apr 21, 2021

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

DamnitGannet posted:

Polygon has put out another article that is essentially 'see? Told you it was pro fascist' and I just
I think you gotta give them this one

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Remember, children... You brought this upon yourselves!


The ending is stupid but it's not fascist.

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

The United States posted:

I think you gotta give them this one

No you don't.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

The United States posted:

I think you gotta give them this one
you definitely do not gotta hand it to them

Homora Gaykemi
Apr 30, 2020

"We live together in her Skull Cave. We cook each other dinner all the time. She gifted me this beautiful horse. Do you think I should ask her out?"*

*Ancient lesbo saying


Thank you. You read "AoT is fash" discourse for our sake. I promise I won't let this error go to waste.

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LITERALLY MY FETISH
Nov 11, 2010


Ibram Gaunt posted:

The ending is stupid but it's not fascist.

The starship troopers movie is also anti fascist, but that doesn’t stop a lot of fascists from really liking it.

I still think Isayama used a lot of fascist iconography poorly, and doing so extremely muddled his message. You’re going to have a dickens of a time defending “thank you for committing genocide” as antifascist, as well. It’s why people are so entrenched in their views: both sides can be technically correct, it’s just about which parts you choose to ignore.

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