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mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

After that ending will any one care about if Attack on Titan is problematic anymore? It's like the Game of Thrones ending, everyone just stopped caring enough to argue if it was misogynist or not.

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Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

did isayama really not get any sort of finale message or statement whatsoever, only the editors?

that seems really, really weird

mycot posted:

After that ending will any one care about if Attack on Titan is problematic anymore? It's like the Game of Thrones ending, everyone just stopped caring enough to argue.
yeah I'm basically at the point where I just go "no, the series emphatically portrays fascism as a terrible thing that constantly brutalizes and mutilates society and the people we love, even if the author hosed up the ending and made a few bad imagery choices it doesn't dismantle that portrayal"

gabi's entire storyline, until she was sidelined for titan superfriends antics in the closing chapters, was an incredibly compelling showing of an indoctrinated self-loathing child soldier coming to terms with what she'd been taught/force fed literally her entire life. the ball was dropped at the finish line, it wasn't bungled from the beginning.

Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Apr 21, 2021

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Hell, the fact that virtually every character is portrayed with nuance marks it as a not-fascist work. Fascists hate nuance. Everything and everyone must be unambiguously good or bad. (This is also why fascist media is mediocre at best. Even Triumph of the Will, the documentary that made film historians spend decades tripping over their own dicks in their haste to praise it, is boring as hell.)

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Maybe read the article?


Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

You can't make me read a polygon article, the only thing that site ever did right was give BDG an income.

Asuron
Nov 27, 2012


The United States posted:

Maybe read the article?




That scene is portrayed as a bad thing, you can literally see Niccolo and the Braus family walk away in disgust/sadness.

Again the ending is poo poo, but it still doesn’t have pro fascism leanings despite how much I dislike it. I know you have come in both threads previously trying to shitpost, but cmon try a little harder.

Nuebot
Feb 18, 2013

The developer of Brigador is a secret chud, don't give him money

Asuron posted:

That scene is portrayed as a bad thing, you can literally see Niccolo and the Braus family walk away in disgust/sadness.

Again the ending is poo poo, but it still doesn’t have pro fascism leanings despite how much I dislike it. I know you have come in both threads previously trying to shitpost, but cmon try a little harder.

Also like the entire series has basically been about how facism breeds violence which breeds facism. Like every step of the way we've been given story to the people in power abusing their subjects, those subjects rising up through violence and becoming the new people in power; then just doing the exact same poo poo the previous leaders did with a minor tweak or two to totally make it work this time. It seems to be saying that it doesn't, and will never, work and only ensure that not only will you get hosed up: but the people who take over are going to gently caress up too because they learned from you.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

The starship troopers movie is also anti fascist, but that doesn’t stop a lot of fascists from really liking it.

I still think Isayama used a lot of fascist iconography poorly, and doing so extremely muddled his message. You’re going to have a dickens of a time defending “thank you for committing genocide” as antifascist, as well. It’s why people are so entrenched in their views: both sides can be technically correct, it’s just about which parts you choose to ignore.

I don't think it's a good argument that the work is fascist because idiots can't understand media they're consuming. I disagree with alot of things presented in the ending, but I don't think it's up to the author to dumb everything down so some hypothetical fascist doesn't think the work is agreeing with them.

Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Apr 21, 2021

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

I think is not that "it is fascist" or not

The problem, the way I understand it, is that AoT allows some fascist interpretations, intentionally or not.

That a lot of bad arguments used to portray the manga as fascist but theres one I think it makes a lot sense: post-basement, Eldians are portrayed like jews in nazi Germany. At the same time, a lot of stuff nazi propaganda said about jewish people are indeed true about Eldians: they arent exactly human; they are (or can be) monsters; they are an existencial thread to humanity; they did commited horrible crimes in the past; and they do still control the world (or at least Marley) from the background; and so on. That does allows some dangerous analogies to be done

Than the ending does not invalidates any of that, The Je-Eldians did destroyed the world. Except for their own nation which goes on as what appears to be a fascist state. And everyone is happy about it

I Love Annie May
Oct 10, 2012



Ibram Gaunt posted:

I don't think it's a good argument that the work is fascist because idiots can't understand media they're consuming. I disagree with alot of things presented in the ending, but I don't think it's up to the author to dumb everything down so some hypothetical fascist doesn't think the work is agreeing with them.

People signed up for the Army because of Full Metal Jacket. Italian neofascists lured college kids with Lord of the Rings. When people play movies about bullying for kids, the bullies identify with the victims.

Doesn’t matter how hard you try, you can't write something completely "idiot proof".

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!




Violence is portrayed as ugly, but also inevitable. It is easy to be blind to the ugliness of the violence in AoT and treat it as a glorificiation because "badass titan fights". It is even easier to see the ugliness and say "see? the series is saying that this is bad". But that stops short of acknowledging what has always been a part of the story: that violence is inevitable, and you must be ready to do violence and be ugly yourself, or someone else will do that to you. To AoT there is no value in pacifism, the virtue of humanism is stomped by the virtue of violent self-determination. It is a story that starts off by telling you a story in which, unless you choose violence, titans will kill you and your family, and it ends by telling you a story in which, unless you choose violence, your country will be destroyed by the rest of the world (which the story made explicit when even the Eldian sympathisers were united in hatred of Paradis).

JahRoo
Oct 22, 2010




It's definitely not the first story to deal with that thought -- I think the armbands just short-circuited everyone's brains.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


Its OK to have series where pacifism isnt an option though. Too many series try to end in this miraculous state where everyone decides to live peacefully ever after when humanity hasn't even come close to getting to that point yet. Escapism can be good, but its not required every time in the medium.

Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Apr 21, 2021

DamnitGannet
Apr 8, 2007



I certainly did not walk away from the series thinking fascism is good and if anyone did then I think they decided it was pro fascism from the beginning. This is why you have nazis who think it's always sunny is a show made for them. Theyve already made up their mind that fascism is cool and they will do anything to make the media they consume match their ideals, even if they have to make it up.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

The starship troopers movie is also anti fascist, but that doesn’t stop a lot of fascists from really liking it.

I still think Isayama used a lot of fascist iconography poorly, and doing so extremely muddled his message. You’re going to have a dickens of a time defending “thank you for committing genocide” as antifascist, as well. It’s why people are so entrenched in their views: both sides can be technically correct, it’s just about which parts you choose to ignore.
You have to put in the loving work to make it land. It's perfectly possible for fiction to tackle tough or problematic developments and not have it feel like it's for shock value or god forbid supportive of such elements, but you have to put in the god drat loving work for it especially when your story revolves around literal ghettos populated by an oppressed race who are forced to wear armbands and spend the bulk of the story in Madagascar. You can't just be like "yeah but it's showing it as being a bad thing" and just assume that's sufficient justification for writing it that way.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

DamnitGannet posted:

I certainly did not walk away from the series thinking fascism is good and if anyone did then I think they decided it was pro fascism from the beginning. This is why you have nazis who think it's always sunny is a show made for them. Theyve already made up their mind that fascism is cool and they will do anything to make the media they consume match their ideals, even if they have to make it up.

Hell, there's a bunch of fascist bronies. One of them even wrote a blog about all the fascist messages he sees in Friendship is Magic, which he later compiled into a book. Now, I blame the not-fascist bronies who tolerated the fasc in their midst in the name of "inclusion," but is it reasonable to assume Lauren Faust or FiM are fascist? You could point to how the ponies are all members of distinct breeds, each one with its own abilities and appearance, all accepting their place in pony society instead of agitating for change. You could point to the fact that the ponies are governed by a benevolent absolute monarch whose rule is only challenged by literal cartoon villains. You could point to the episodes about the importance of following tradition, or about families and communities coming together around their shared identity. You could point to all these things and say "This is how fascists believe human society is supposed to work. FiM is fascist." But that is not a reasonable, good-faith reading.

Flesnolk
Apr 11, 2012

h

DamnitGannet posted:

Polygon has put out another article that is essentially 'see? Told you it was pro fascist' and I just :shepicide:

Honestly, after 139, I don't think they're wrong

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009


Yeah when I saw that the heroes were all living in exile from their homeland, the queen was fighting a shadow war with the nameless, faceless fascist faction, and all the moral characters were either yawning in apathy or doing the Soul Eater cringe face at the fash rally I thought drat maybe Hitler did have a point

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Pththya-lyi posted:

Hell, there's a bunch of fascist bronies. One of them even wrote a blog about all the fascist messages he sees in Friendship is Magic, which he later compiled into a book. Now, I blame the not-fascist bronies who tolerated the fasc in their midst in the name of "inclusion," but is it reasonable to assume Lauren Faust or FiM are fascist? You could point to how the ponies are all members of distinct breeds, each one with its own abilities and appearance, all accepting their place in pony society instead of agitating for change. You could point to the fact that the ponies are governed by a benevolent absolute monarch whose rule is only challenged by literal cartoon villains. You could point to the episodes about the importance of following tradition, or about families and communities coming together around their shared identity. You could point to all these things and say "This is how fascists believe human society is supposed to work. FiM is fascist." But that is not a reasonable, good-faith reading.
https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1383695172316241926
https://twitter.com/broderick/status/1384159597498310662

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



What does that have to do with anything stated?

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I don't think AoT is fascist but its always been thematically confused. You can't introduce a race of oppressed people with super powers and not step into that territory, especially when the oppressed race then actually proves that they're incredibly dangerous by, say, eliminating 80% of humanity.

Like the story doesn't want to say that there is a justification for oppressing or wiping out this race. It also doesn't want to say that Eldians are ubermeches that are being kept down by weaker people and so need to create their own Galt's Gulch on Paradis away from the rest of humanity. It does want to have a bunch of cool fights where people turn into giant monsters though, while at the same time commenting on how this power might inflame cycles of violence and then it inadvertently steps in the path of people who will read is as furthering one of the former themes.

Pththya-lyi
Nov 8, 2009

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Ibram Gaunt posted:

What does that have to do with anything stated?

Cartoons designed to teach feminist values to little girls are fascist now?

I would like to know which media franchises aren't fascist at this point.

Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 21, 2021

DamnitGannet
Apr 8, 2007



I always thought it was super unfair that the eldians are considered dangerous monsters when the only reason they turn into dangerous monsters is because someone is jabbing them with spinal fluid. If you stop jabbing them with spinal fluid, maybe you wont have a problem??

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



What I get from the "is aot fascist" discourse is that mobile suit gundam would break the minds of modern western anime viewers.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


GimmickMan posted:

What I get from the "is aot fascist" discourse is that mobile suit gundam would break the minds of modern western anime viewers.

Luckily we got introduced to it through Wing and G Gundam which are both batshit caricatures of the original. WAY easier to digest.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

GimmickMan posted:

What I get from the "is aot fascist" discourse is that mobile suit gundam would break the minds of modern western anime viewers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIY8NxUopMM

The United States fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 21, 2021

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011



Like yes the baddies are genocidal war criminals led by a guy who thinks hitler was too soft, but they have one honorable soldier, some psychics, cool robots and also their faction is named zeon so truly it's impossible to say they're not simultaneously evil jews and also cool nazis. gundam is fascist propaganda qed checkmate atheists.

Many of the aspects people bring up as points against AOT, (the way anti-war media usually ends up portraying war as something cool and flashy, how humanizing fascists can sometimes cross a line into justification of their worldview, that exploited minorities with superpowers send a mixed message, and so on and so forth) are trends in media and pop culture as a whole that have been this way for over forty years. People springing up now to point out AOT does all these horrible things, as if it invented them, is ridiculous in a world where superheroes have been most popular genre for the past decade.

We can, and should, examine these trends to see if media can grow past having to rely on such crutches to make a story popular. But pretending that AOT is somehow more guilty of it than the average MCU entry is disingenous.

AOT mishandles some of its symbolism and the final chapter has some pages and panels that are extremely easy to take out of context. If people think that carries more weight than Gabi's character arc (to name what is probably the best example of the text being explicitly not fascist) then I would like them to explain why they think that is the case instead of pitching a bunch of plot elements out of context like they're presenting evidence in an ace attorney game.

mycot
Oct 23, 2014


Hell Gem

Ccs posted:

I don't think AoT is fascist but its always been thematically confused. You can't introduce a race of oppressed people with super powers and not step into that territory, especially when the oppressed race then actually proves that they're incredibly dangerous by, say, eliminating 80% of humanity.

Like the story doesn't want to say that there is a justification for oppressing or wiping out this race. It also doesn't want to say that Eldians are ubermeches that are being kept down by weaker people and so need to create their own Galt's Gulch on Paradis away from the rest of humanity. It does want to have a bunch of cool fights where people turn into giant monsters though, while at the same time commenting on how this power might inflame cycles of violence and then it inadvertently steps in the path of people who will read is as furthering one of the former themes.

Yeah AOT might not be literally politically fascist but it is a series with very...strange conclusions on mass murder.

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





The United States posted:

Maybe read the article?


Man, gently caress this series. I can't believe a queen like Rico would be a raving fash. :negative:

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008




Gravy Boat 2k

AOT whiffed the ending so badly I'm not really in a position to want to defend it from attacks as pro-fash. It willingly grew some ugly rear end warts on itself, appeared to want to address them as the story went on, and then you get to the end and the warts are larger somehow.


I don't hate it, but disappointment is definitely there and I guess some peeps are way more disappointed than I am. And hey, that's fine.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Yeah, I was extremely disappointed that Isayama couldn't nail the ending the way he nailed the basement reveal. I was really hoping he'd continue to blow us away with his foreshadowing and planning, and that the ending would turn out awesome. But a sucky ending doesn't ruin all the earlier good bits for me, when it's been so consistently good for so long.

If anything, the ending feeling so weirdly detached makes it a bit easier for me to just ignore it :v:

HoneyBoy
Oct 12, 2012

get murked son

Same tbh, I can still recognize this series as being the same one with Levi's good rear end monologues and Erwin's deathwish motivational speeches. Plus we still have the anime and until next year before that's ruined too.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





HoneyBoy posted:

Same tbh, I can still recognize this series as being the same one with Levi's good rear end monologues and Erwin's deathwish motivational speeches. Plus we still have the anime and until next year before that's ruined too.

As I said earlier, I just reread chapter 138, and it has some really good moments. It's only 139 which shits things up to such a remarkable degree.

If it felt more in keeping with the rest of the series, then I think I'd feel more depressed about Titan as a whole, but as it stands, I'm just ticked off at (and suspicious of) one chapter out of the whole set.

Here's hoping the anime lands things better.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


HoneyBoy posted:

I can still recognize this series as being the same one with Levi's good rear end

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!




I don't think it's right to pin all the issues on the last chapter. Things like Gabi's character arc not intersecting with Eren's despite being written as a parallel or Historia being almost written out of the story are the result of making Eren press the button to turn into the final boss and force a conclusion. Once that happened, even if the rest of the chapters had amazing storytelling economy you couldn't really bring things like that to a satisfying conclusion.

Perfect Potato
Mar 4, 2009


Keith showing up to just randomly die in a suicide pact with someone he doesn't know with literally no one else knowing has to be top 5 dumbest poo poo in the series

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





Perfect Potato posted:

Keith showing up to just randomly die in a suicide pact with someone he doesn't know with literally no one else knowing has to be top 5 dumbest poo poo in the series

Keith had just been viciously beaten by agents of the new military junta and was trying to aid the few people seemingly doing the right thing. Even if he hadn't helped the alliance, he eventually would've been imprisoned or killed by the Jaegerists. I saw his and Magath's deaths as defeated people who wanted to go out on their own terms, helping others do some good to make up for their mistakes.

I don't think that moment should even rank in the top ten. Numbers 1 through 10 should be "what the gently caress was Ymir's deal and why wasn't it properly explained, Isayama"


seriously why was she there watching people die horribly in the rumbling that she helped facilitate? why did one of the most important characters to the story have less pages spent on her than loving Sawney and Beane?

Vanderdeath fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Apr 22, 2021

Strawberry Pyramid
Dec 12, 2020

by Pragmatica


Ymir Likes To Watch.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

:911: :911:
My leftism is so defined by opposing liberals with reactionary twittershit that I will gleefully simp for the fourteen words propagandist born and bred by America's degenerate bluebloods within the darkest temples of the Central Intelligence Agency.
:911: :911:


a concerned mother or creepy voyeur poltergeist?

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Tenkaris
Feb 10, 2006

Marcel, if you press that button...



Catching up on the anime in s3 and I just watched the part where Historia tells Eren she will always help someone who is crying and wants to die.

I immediately thought of when Eren hugged Ymir and we saw the tears streaming down her face. It’s a weird echo, and could have had a nice connection or meaning to it.

But instead we got what we got, a confusing mess that leaves more questions than answers

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