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Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.


It's possible that they stopped developing large weaponry because for a long, long time no titans came within the walls. They needed highly portable weapons because the only group that fought was the scouting legion that was not within the walls. As they would be fighting in relatively unknown territory, they needed a portable weapon with very high mobility.

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temple
Jul 29, 2006



The 3D system makes sense for no other reason than it allows the defenders to scale their own walls. If you imagine the giants as walls, it allows them to melee attack something taller than themselves. The real thing that doesn't add up to me is why they have to cut the neck. If they blow the head off, it regenerates. Well aim lower. Seems obvious. Hopefully, the writer has more to explain.

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


temple posted:

The 3D system makes sense for no other reason than it allows the defenders to scale their own walls. If you imagine the giants as walls, it allows them to melee attack something taller than themselves. The real thing that doesn't add up to me is why they have to cut the neck. If they blow the head off, it regenerates. Well aim lower. Seems obvious. Hopefully, the writer has more to explain.

Because the area is in the center of the lower neck, ie, from a lot angles that'd mean going through the chest cavity. Which is apparently fairly armored. I don't think they get many chances to hit them from behind.

Also believe it or not, aiming a cannon is hard. Arms like that ultimately come down to luck whether it hits the target. I assume they do get lucky with them now and then, but perhaps not enough!

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.


temple posted:

The 3D system makes sense for no other reason than it allows the defenders to scale their own walls. If you imagine the giants as walls, it allows them to melee attack something taller than themselves. The real thing that doesn't add up to me is why they have to cut the neck. If they blow the head off, it regenerates. Well aim lower. Seems obvious. Hopefully, the writer has more to explain.
The heads are small. Their torsos are enormous and bulky. And if you look at the earlier chapters, they use it to scale trees. The 3D system was designed for the people who were actually engaging in combat. It's been over one hundred years since they had to fight on their own turf. The 3D system is for mobility (humans can't outrun titans, but the 3D system helps a lot) and maneuverability (they can easily move vertically).

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

In fact they even made a point about how they developed those big scattershot cannons that sometimes do enough damage to the neck to kill a titan when hitting them from the front, but not consistently enough to rely on them.

And there are a fuckton of titans. Once they can get at you they just keep coming.

Bisse
Jun 26, 2005

*gets hit by truck*


temple posted:

The real thing that doesn't add up to me is why they have to cut the neck.
Since that is their weak point for an unknown reason which is a mystery! Which is part of what makes this manga so great, the unknown, mysteries!

It's not really a mystery any more though since that is exactly where Eren was sitting when he was a Titan. So obviously there are people at that spot, or remnants of people at least...

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.


Sindai posted:

In fact they even made a point about how they developed those big scattershot cannons that sometimes do enough damage to the neck to kill a titan when hitting them from the front, but not consistently enough to rely on them.

And there are a fuckton of titans. Once they can get at you they just keep coming.
Here it is:


Bonus:


Bisse posted:

Since that is their weak point for an unknown reason which is a mystery! Which is part of what makes this manga so great, the unknown, mysteries!

It's not really a mystery any more though since that is exactly where Eren was sitting when he was a Titan. So obviously there are people at that spot, or remnants of people at least...
Eren is almost certainly not a normal titan, but I agree that there are probably people there. How they end up might be different, though.

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


Bisse posted:

Since that is their weak point for an unknown reason which is a mystery! Which is part of what makes this manga so great, the unknown, mysteries!

It's not really a mystery any more though since that is exactly where Eren was sitting when he was a Titan. So obviously there are people at that spot, or remnants of people at least...

Not necessarily the case. Correlation != causation, yo It may just be that that's the neural center of the Giants and functionally their brain, and Eren is just sitting in a giant's brain due to shenanigans

temple
Jul 29, 2006



Zorak posted:

Because the area is in the center of the lower neck, ie, from a lot angles that'd mean going through the chest cavity. Which is apparently fairly armored. I don't think they get many chances to hit them from behind.

Also believe it or not, aiming a cannon is hard. Arms like that ultimately come down to luck whether it hits the target. I assume they do get lucky with them now and then, but perhaps not enough!
Yeah. I figure if I was a giant and I knew I could regenerate, then I'd lower my chin. That way the force of the shot would be distributed along my skull and maybe spare my neck or take off the neck and head in one piece (allowing the lower body to be regenerated). Its like when a street fighter take a blow on the top of his head because of the thickness of the skull.

Which all of this is a totally unneccesary explanation. Yes, aiming is hard. So is using a propane grapple hook scalpel attack. Whatever, every manga needs a gimmick. If the people from AotG were Americans, they drat well better be able to shoot the neck of giants.

Elysiume
Aug 13, 2009

Alone, she fights.


temple posted:

Yeah. I figure if I was a giant and I knew I could regenerate, then I'd lower my chin. That way the force of the shot would be distributed along my skull and maybe spare my neck or take off the neck and head in one piece (allowing the lower body to be regenerated). Its like when a street fighter take a blow on the top of his head because of the thickness of the skull.

Which all of this is a totally unneccesary explanation. Yes, aiming is hard. So is using a propane grapple hook scalpel attack. Whatever, every manga needs a gimmick. If the people from AotG were Americans, they drat well better be able to shoot the neck of giants.
It's already been said in and out of the manga that cannons are really hard to aim. They are useful in ye olde combat where everyone stood in a line and ran forward. They were good on boats where the target was another (big) boat. When your target is a single enemy with a rather small weak point, they are pretty much useful. They are good for knocking over or otherwise temporarily disabling titans. The grapple-gear is also useful for mobility.

You seem to have missed this, so I'm going to be clear.

For the last hundred years, no combat was done within the walls. They were going out to fight the titans in titan controlled land.

They need a way to get behind titans (i.e., mobility increasing equipment) and a way to escape from behind or near titans (i.e., mobility increasing equipment). Titans are fast and strong. The humans need to be able to get in, kill them, and get out.

Also titans are way too stupid to block anything. They walked into a wall of spikes and got stuck. These are not high level thinkers.

Jose
Jul 24, 2007





Living inside a city for 100 years probably severely limits the resources you have to develop weapons with. They have what is clearly an unlimited supply for natural gas for their fighting method but making gunpowder could be very hard or rare.

Its still a pretty pointless argument to be having though.

Elias_Maluco
Aug 23, 2007
I need to sleep

Elysiume posted:

Have you seen how much flesh they need to remove? They would need to develop very powerful grenade launchers instead of just rifles.

I guess making the better grenade launchers would make sense.

Or maybe machine guns.


Jose posted:

Its still a pretty pointless argument to be having though.

Nobody is going to dispute that.

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


Not to mention, as Rakugoon put it:

Rakugoon posted:

Yeah, and Britain would have won the Crimean War so easily if they had just built B-52s.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


I've found some cool fanart!





Pierson
Oct 31, 2004





College Slice

The first one owns so loving hard. I hope this manga sells (another) million copies.

awkward_turtle
Oct 26, 2007
swimmer in a goon sea

It's been mentioned that this series bears a lot of resemblance to Knights of Sidonia in its tone. The other thing it makes me think of is The Night Land by William Hope Hodgeson, in that everything is just completely hopeless. They live inside a fortress that they understand little of and can't repair, besieged by an enemy they are incapable of understanding due to its alien nature. The slightest break down in order means certain, horrific death for thousands of people. It's pretty depressing.

The Night Land would actually make an awesome manga....

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

Illuyankas posted:

I'm looking forward to finding out how the sixty metre tall titan can move so fast and so quietly, that it can appear and disappear next to a heavily guarded wall without anyone noticing.
Yes, how could such a large creature appear and disappear so quickly?

narfanator
Dec 16, 2008


I smell the serum's alpha tester.

TheAtomicMan
May 4, 2007

whats that over there



if all the giants have people in them, why are female giants so rare? and why would there be nearly human sized giants?

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Well I can't think of any reason why the titans would have to reflect the gender of the human inside them. Have there been any female giants? I can't remember any. If not, I imagine the giants aren't really supposed to have a sex. As for the latter question, I guess not all titans are created equal? Maybe the person inside the titan determines it's strength/size?

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

TheAtomicMan posted:

if all the giants have people in them, why are female giants so rare? and why would there be nearly human sized giants?
Golems are sexless..?

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


They specifically said that there are both male and female-esque giants, even if they're sex-less, though female-like ones are much rarer.

Also I think it's kind of silly to assume literally every giant has a human in them, if only because we have literally no evidence beyond one case at this point, possibly two if the larger one is the same (given its ability to appear and vanish rapidly)

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

The male:female ratio is pretty interesting because it hints that the population the giants are created from is mostly male, which makes me think criminals.

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

This story reminds me of Bokurano, except I hated that and don't mind this for whatever reason.

Sweet As Sin
May 8, 2007

Hee-ho!!!



Grimey Drawer

Whoa, I just stumbled onto this and I'm hooked. It has been a long time since any manga has interested me, great!

Ka0
Sep 16, 2002


AS A PROUD GAMERGATER THE ONLY THING I HATE MORE THAN WOMEN ARE GAYS AND TRANS PEOPLE


Gave it a try and got hooked. This is so messed up.

JD
Jan 11, 2003


I think the giant titan has a regular titan in it's neck! That has an evil human inside it's neck!! it's the MC's father

Nilbop
Jun 5, 2004

Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...


Allright so let's recap then:

Colossal Titan: Probably has a human in it.
Gatecrasher Titan: Probably has a human in it.
Other Titans: Most likely don't have humans in them, unless we want to make this even more depressing.

The actions of the Colossal Titan would seem to be that of either a general, signalling this assault for his soldiers but never actually engaging, and a researcher, studying the reactions of the humans. Because he has a set purpose in attacking the sole weak-points in the walls, those being the gates, we can assume he has, if not some sort of intelligence of his own, then at least the ability to follow or conceive specific instructions. He also attacks Eren, but doesn't seem consumed by the need to destroy humans by devouring them that other titans have. Nor does the Gatecrasher Titan, who simply appeared in a furious charge to destroy wall Maria before assumedly dissapearing, and seems to be the only one capable of doing so. So we can assume, having seen how these two work in tandem to complete their mission of destroying the outer civilization that there is some form of either master intelligence behind them, or they are evolving into a race capable of some form of intelligence.

Either way it was probably a good choice on the authors behalf not to actually delve to deeply into the first appearance of the titans yet, because I don't buy for a second the conceit that a post-industrial world of humans would have problems vanquishing the 8-15 footers, unless there was some military or nation helping them.

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


Nilbop posted:

Colossal Titan: Probably has a human in it.
Gatecrasher Titan: Probably has a human in it.

These are the same thing?

Nilbop
Jun 5, 2004

Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...


No, the Colossal Titan is the big one. The Gatecrasher is the smaller one that charges through the gate as everyone is evacuating. It's actually referred to as the more pressing danger because it can smash through the stronger walls, as opposed to merely the gates.

http://www.mangareader.net/shingeki-no-kyojin/2/28

It's referred to later as a distinct creature from the larger one, who obviously gets more screen time devoted to him.

PaleIrishGuy
Feb 5, 2004
Pale as paper

Huh. While most (all?) of the other titans have humanish mouths, both Titan-Eren and the Gatecrasher have that weird angled cheek split thing going on (Eren/Gatecrasher)

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

^^^ There also seems to be a big difference between the titans with no muscle tone and pot-bellies and the ones with more muscle (which seem far less common and include the big one). For the record, the ones with pot-bellies scare the gently caress out of me.

Zorak posted:

They specifically said that there are both male and female-esque giants, even if they're sex-less, though female-like ones are much rarer.

Also I think it's kind of silly to assume literally every giant has a human in them, if only because we have literally no evidence beyond one case at this point, possibly two if the larger one is the same (given its ability to appear and vanish rapidly)

While it's of course silly to be sure it's true, there's a hell of a lot that indicates it. It's far more likely that it's true than it isn't, because it fully explains a couple mysteries without any contradictions. And they've also made *wink wink* suggestions that humans fighting each other is as bad as titans fighting humans, indicating the titans have some human "base."

Not only that, but I hope it's the case, because I can't think of any other explanation that wouldn't be silly. Take the neck weakness: they hinted VERY strongly that titans die when you attack that area because that is where the human inside them is. It's far more likely that's the case than it's just some crazy coincidence and they have neural tissue there. Not to mention the whole titan disappearing thing being because it turned back into a person. The only alternatives would have to be silliness that they make up along the way, and I don't get that impression from this author/series so far.


What strikes me the most about this series is that it's able to make me feel really scared for the characters. I got a cold sweat when his mom gets eaten, largely because it showed her freaking out after they left, rather than more typically "dying in peace," like most characters in media tend to do once they've saved their family/loved ones. Some of the death scenes are really hosed up, and the dull ambivalence of the titans is far scarier than if they were openly malevolent/angry.

edit: Also want to agree with the people who explained why the up close 3d maneuvering is required to fight them. They use the shotgun cannon to slow them down and get occasional lucky hits, but like Zorak mentioned it's pretty much impossible to accurately aim a cannon to that extent.

The only technology that I wonder about is explosives. They obviously have gunpowder, and it seems like a big explosion would take out their weak point in the process, making a "lure them all to a mass of people and set off a big bomb" strategy viable. The "they hadn't been attacked in 100 years" explanation makes some sense, though, since an explosive would only be useful on the offense (or offense as a defense).

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jun 18, 2011

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


Ytlaya posted:

While it's of course silly to be sure it's true, there's a hell of a lot that indicates it. It's far more likely that it's true than it isn't, because it fully explains a couple mysteries without any contradictions. And they've also made *wink wink* suggestions that humans fighting each other is as bad as titans fighting humans, indicating the titans have some human "base."

Not only that, but I hope it's the case, because I can't think of any other explanation that wouldn't be silly. Take the neck weakness: they hinted VERY strongly that titans die when you attack that area because that is where the human inside them is. It's far more likely that's the case than it's just some crazy coincidence and they have neural tissue there. Not to mention the whole titan disappearing thing being because it turned back into a person. The only alternatives would have to be silliness that they make up along the way, and I don't get that impression from this author/series so far.

Except we've seen them carved open at that point without any human inside. Like the only way that could be the case is if you argue that there used to be humans in them all and they atrophied, at which point the whole piloted thing is pointless since it's more of a human-as-seed than human-as-pilot like we see in the other case. It also diminishes the importance/ notability of the special cases.

dis astranagant
Dec 14, 2006



Also, you seem to greatly overestimate the ability of explosives to actually destroy something that they just happen to be set off next to. Titans seem to hardly be bothered by getting knocked around or losing big hunks of tissue other than their neck. Setting off a bomb next to one might knock them flat and maybe cause some nasty wounds if there's a good bit of shrapnel, but if would take a pretty drat good blast to reliably kill a bunch of titans. Generally, if you want to be sure you destroy something tough, you set off the explosion inside it, which would require some fancy guided missile stuff that's way over these guys' heads.

GreenBuckanneer
Sep 15, 2007




So, who knows a guy who knows a guy who does work on this scanlating it? Maybe if I threw a fiver someone would scanlate it?

Mo_Steel
Mar 7, 2008

Let's Clock Into The Sunset Together



Fun Shoe

GreenBuckanneer posted:

So, who knows a guy who knows a guy who does work on this scanlating it? Maybe if I threw a fiver someone would scanlate it?



This makes me wonder if there's any sort of Crunchyroll-esque manga service where you can support the authors and read manga in very high quality translations but without buying actual manga physical copies. And if not why the hell not?

Somewhat of a tangent I know, but I just want more Advance of the Giants too.

Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


GreenBuckanneer posted:

So, who knows a guy who knows a guy who does work on this scanlating it? Maybe if I threw a fiver someone would scanlate it?



He's already working on the next volume. Patience.

Nilbop
Jun 5, 2004

Looks like someone forgot his hardhat...


Zorak posted:

Except we've seen them carved open at that point without any human inside.

Have we actually though? We've seen people like Mikasa and the Lieutenant slash off a large junk of muscle and sinew there, but we've never focused more than that. Looking at how Eren was stuck in there so securely, it's hardly likely we'd see an arm or limb flailing about, and we're not likely to see a Titan to dissect for a while considering they disappear so quickly.

In all likelihood it's probably going to be a rather major reveal later in the manga, and there's no reason for the author to do anything other than tease the idea like he has with Eren.

GreenBuckanneer
Sep 15, 2007




Zorak posted:

He's already working on the next volume. Patience.

Unless someone fibbed, there are raws out, but not scanlated completely. That's more or less what I was kvetchin about.

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Zorak
Nov 7, 2005


GreenBuckanneer posted:

Unless someone fibbed, there are raws out, but not scanlated completely. That's more or less what I was kvetchin about.

There is a volume raw out for Volume 4 and the group is working on it, as I understand it. So again, patience.

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