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Absolut_V
Oct 8, 2003

Superman That Jones!

GEEKABALL posted:

Count me as also interested. Got this from my uncle, and want some pointers:

12, 16, and 20 gauge reloaders. There is an additional RCBS reloader(a single stage I think, you can barely see it behind the ammo can). Also also, the old containers of powder he gave me are going on the lawn with a good watering.

Can you take some up close photos of the sizemaster? Particularly from the back and sides.
I took mine apart to refinish it recently and I am having some trouble getting it all back together and functioning.

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Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



SpartanIV posted:


Do you keep them covered with a blanket and dramatically reveal them when you have guests over?

briefcasefullof
Sep 25, 2004
[This Space for Rent]

The Lee classic single stage press coms with a priming arm. Does it come with two, one for large primers and one for small primers? I tried to use it just to see what it was like but my primers wouldn't fit.

Not Nipsy Russell
Oct 6, 2004

Failure is always an option.


QuarkMartial posted:

The Lee classic single stage press coms with a priming arm. Does it come with two, one for large primers and one for small primers? I tried to use it just to see what it was like but my primers wouldn't fit.l

It's supposed to come with two. One for each primer size. Send a note to Lee, and they will likely send you one. One of mine broke, and they were quick to replace it.

GEEKABALL
May 30, 2011

Throw out your hands!!
Stick out your tush!!
Hands on your hips
Give them a push!!


Fun Shoe

Absolut_V posted:

Can you take some up close photos of the sizemaster? Particularly from the back and sides.
I took mine apart to refinish it recently and I am having some trouble getting it all back together and functioning.

Hope this helps:





Should I create a new album and link to it for stuff like this?

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

So you want to load some shotshells

Well, good for you. Trap shooting rules, and lots of small, feathered creatures need exploding. Shotshells are a bit different from regular pistol or rifle cartridges, and the sports involving shotguns have completely different considerations (related to those shotshell components).

This is a shotshell

You'll notice that instead of a bullet, you have a wad that holds and cushions the shot, and a weight of shot inside of it. All that looks about like this before you put it together:


With regular lead birdshot, you typically pick a size of shot, and a wad that works well with that weight of shot (your load data will tell you this). If you are shooting clays, this will be between 7/8 of an ounce to 1-1/8 ounces. If you are shooting clays or wildlife a long way away, you are probably looking at 1 ounce to 1-1/4 ounces, or more depending on how much you hate yourself.

This is a shotshell press


Presses typically come for only one gauge, and it will be really, really obvious. This is also the case for shell length: 2-3/4" and 3" are standards in 12ga, so you have to get fancy for 2-1/2" or 3-1/2". I am going to run through some 2-3/4" 12 gauge, since with minor alterations, it can do pretty much anything worth doing unless you're 12 years old or insane.

Remember that bit about shot weight? This will decide if you need to buy a new charge bar. MEC's are labeled by single stage vs. progressive, and how much shot they hold.


They have one cavity for shot, and another for powder; that powder cavity accepts a charge bushing, which determines how much powder the bar throws. MEC presses swap out charge bars and powder bushings readily. Turn the charge bar/bottle assembly upside-down, then

Unscrew the bolt in the center.

Slide the whole thing out.

Then the bushing pops in and out.

Do note, however, that in certain presses (like mine!) orientation of the charge bar matters. We'll get to why this is later, but the thing to note right now is this:

This L-shaped protrusion slides in and out of a little slot right in the middle of the entire assembly. L-shaped bit in, and you can't move the bottles. L-shaped bit out, and they swing freely. When you tip the bottles back upright, you want the powder bushing to be directly under the powder bottle, so that the first time you push the bar, it dispenses powder.

The bottle in the left holds shot, and the bottle in the right holds powder.

Sliding the bar left and right will dispense either powder or shot.

So, now the press is loaded up and good to go. Get a fired hull, and stick it at the decapping/sizing station.

Align the base of the shell over the hole underneath, and

TINK


This is a deprimed hull, and a fresh primer. Note that the primers are rimmed, in contrast to a metallic cartridge primer.

Place the primer rim down in the primer sink.


Then, place the hull in the priming station and push the handle down.


Next up is the charging station:

At this station, you'll pull the lever, drop in powder, release the lever, insert a wad and pull the lever again, drop in shot, then release the lever.



Note that as you move the charge bar, this little L-shaped thing wedges itself into the mechanism to hold the shell in place. This way, you don't spill powder all over the place while you insert the wad.



This little collet is called "wad fingers." They are called wad fingers because they finger the wad! (Here is the bottom view of the wad fingers, but with the shell in the next station) Now, the shell is yours to pack up. I like to push the petals of the wad onto the press ram, then let the wad fingers guide it into the hull.

Pull the lever all the way down to seat the wad. Many presses have a little pressure gauge right in the front of the ram, which will move up much like a fish scale if you have a particularly bulky powder charge (as with heavy target and field loads). Then, with the lever down, poke the charge bar the other way to dispense shot.


Now, the collet releases the shell, which is now full of shot.


All that's left is to close it off. This happens with two stations: the crimp starter, and the crimping station. Metallic cartridges need only one crimping operation, but since a shotshell uses the plastic case mouth folded in on itself, first you must get the crimp started:



I find the crimp starter cool as hell, because it spins freely to match the orientation of the crimp that was originally applied to the shell, thus improving longevity. However, if you're severely gummed up or a sick gently caress, you can start a brand new one and make your hull look all messed up.

Now, the crimp is started. The very last station crushes it down properly.

Squish!
Now we have...

A finished shotshell, ready to fire.

I've deliberately glazed over a couple things, since they don't make sense until you know how the press farts out ammo unto your scattergun.

How do I know what load data I need?
I find the following method helpful: Pick how much shot I want to send downrange, then see what wads and primers I can get. Pick a powder based on usage (Red Dot, Clays, or Titewad for trap, other poo poo for other poo poo), then go to the manufacturer's site (Alliant, Hodgdon) to see what wad/primer/powder weights I can use.
You will find that different wads will pattern differently, so if you want to see what pattern you like, that's great. However, in terms of safety, I simply grab what the data say I can use.
You will need a powder bushing that dispenses the weight of powder that you need. You figure this out from the bushing manufacturer (MEC in my case) and the powder manufacturer. They should list identical loads. The manufacturer may list 3 or 4 charge weights for a powder: pick the one in the middle, Rock! Do NOT exceed the max load, nor go under the minimum.

What hulls should I get?
Winchester AA and Remington STS last the longest. Remington bulk pack (Gun Club brand) use the same load data as STS, so I find that a great place to start. Federal hulls, unfortunately, don't last that long, nor is there very much load data for them (exactly for that reason).

Where do I get once fired hulls?
poo poo if I know. I bid 30 bucks for 400 of those shiny gold motherfuckers off Gunbroker.

What wads should I get?
Remington and Winchester are the favorites. Wads are built based on shape, and a company called Claybuster Wads makes substitutes that work quite well for way cheap. Wads also have an optimum shot weight, which the load data will take into account, and what the bag of wads will say.

What if I want to do slugs or buckshot?
I don't know how to do slugs, and I know there's separate data for buckshot, and it's more limited for powder/hull/wad selection. Buckshot stacks rather than pours, so it takes more time to do, and you need a wad with enough space to hold the pellets.

What if I want to use tungsten-anthracite shot to save the whales?
Quit being a hippie, and then read up on your manufacturer's options for nontoxic shot. The basics still apply; the gear and data are just different.

How much does it cost?
The press I have, the MEC 600 Jr. Mk V, cost me 80 bucks at a pawn shop, and new, they're about 170 with 3 popular shot bushings. Extra bushings are about $5 and extra charge bars are $16-ish. Wads are $10 per 500 for the Claybusters, and shot is around $40 for 25 pounds, which if you remember your arithmetic, yields 400 1 oz. shells.

Is MEC going to gently caress me over and leave me in a ditch?

No, they're cool dudes. They've been doing shotshell presses for longer than I've been alive.

What other presses can I get?

The 600 Jr. Mk V is MEC's entry-level single stage, however they have a vast line of single stages and progressives depending on how much money you want to give them. RCBS, Lee, and Ponsness-Warren also make presses, but I've not tried them out. RCBS will get you a single stage for $170 or so, up to $1000+ progressives. Ponsness-Warren doesn't make anything under $800.

I have a weird-rear end shotgun. Do I need to know anything special?

Probably. Read up on the thing. As always, you may find that semi-autos require some tuning to run properly, and break actions are the most unfuckwithable design you can run. You should be using one of those for trap anyway, because they're neato. Also, wear eye protection.

Edit: Oh poo poo, I forgot something really important.

DO NOT SUBSTITUTE COMPONENTS IN YOUR LOAD DATA FOR ANY REASON

You know how with metallic cartridges, the military ones are thicker, so you can't load them as hot? Well, with shotshells, from brand to brand, the hulls have completely different internal shapes. This means that if you simply substitute out a spacious hull for a different brand, with less internal space, you will be going dangerously overpressure. The same goes for wads, and even primers.

Peace

thermobollocks fucked around with this message at 04:37 on May 7, 2012

Blemish
Jun 27, 2005

RABID MEAT PIES

thermobollocks posted:

SOME AWESOME SHOTSHELL RELOADING INFOTAINMENT

Well, good for you. Trap shooting rules, and lots of small, feathered creatures need exploding. Shotshells are a bit different from regular pistol or rifle cartridges, and the sports involving shotguns have completely different considerations (related to those shotshell components).


I happened to snag a MEC Sizemaster SM82 12ga press yesterday for $75 at an auction. That, and 5000 primers new-in-boxes. I'm smitten. I am stoked. I am ready to crimp and pimp.



However, while I've have gotten the process down pat (except loading slugs and, eventually, slugs and buck), but the primer tray wont move down or pull in a primer when i pull the lever, not does much of it move at all. What have I done? The chain is taut, it worked yesterday but yet here I am, manually priming like a fool. Any ideas on what could be wrong? Common problems/solutions? I will high-five the man who can explain my new toy to me.

ninja edit:
- 3" shells are the max length this press can handle, right?

Blemish fucked around with this message at 06:44 on May 7, 2012

MisterOblivious
Mar 17, 2010


No reloading guide is complete without a link to BPI

Mec Powder Bushing Chart.
Hodgdon/IMR Mec Bushing Chart.
Alliant Powder Bushing Chart.

I get my once-fired hulls off of craigslist. If there is a lot of trap shooting in your area there's bound to be a club or a guy selling bags of hulls. Current CL price in my area is $5/100.

Cloned wads are safe to swap and can save you money. I usually load with Claybusters wads. $14/500 for Winchester vs $10/500 for Claybusters locally.

To anybody looking at taking up shotshell reloading: do you shoot sporting clays or at a range where people just leave their hulls laying on the ground? Do yourself a favor and use something other than red hulls. Trying to track down your red hulls out of a pile of hundreds is really annoying.

A Magical Unicorn
Mar 21, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post


RE the Thread Title: Who here goes over the maximum published load for their cartridge of choice, and by how much?

Also, what do "Pressure Signs" actually show? Do they always occur at say pressure X, and it so happens that X is close to the maximum pressure specificed by SAAMI etc for a particular round? Or do they show that that the action itself is having trouble coping with pressure?

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"

Grimey Drawer

A Magical Unicorn posted:

RE the Thread Title: Who here goes over the maximum published load for their cartridge of choice, and by how much?

Also, what do "Pressure Signs" actually show? Do they always occur at say pressure X, and it so happens that X is close to the maximum pressure specificed by SAAMI etc for a particular round? Or do they show that that the action itself is having trouble coping with pressure?

Pressure signs are largely witchcraft and even if you have a chronograph and something like quickload you still only really guessing. If you have the funds to get a pressure testing rig then go crazy and make room on the couch for me as I have some ideas I would like to try.

For some stuff like older military rounds being fired in newer sporting arms this doesn't really apply but even then without pressure tested data are you kinda flying blind.

Easychair Bootson
May 7, 2004

Where's the last guy?
Ultimo hombre.
Last man standing.
Must've been one.


A Magical Unicorn posted:

RE the Thread Title: Who here goes over the maximum published load for their cartridge of choice, and by how much?

Also, what do "Pressure Signs" actually show? Do they always occur at say pressure X, and it so happens that X is close to the maximum pressure specificed by SAAMI etc for a particular round? Or do they show that that the action itself is having trouble coping with pressure?
Hornady's published max for the 75gr A-max + Varget in .223 Rem is like 23.0 or 23.5gr, which is very conservative. I shoot 24.5gr jammed, and when working up a load I went as high as 25.5gr, at which point I was just barely able to feel a ridge on the primer with my fingernail, which is a pretty mild pressure sign (at least I think it is). I don't recall any other signs of pressure (it wasn't difficult to lift the bolt handle and I wasn't getting heavy ejector marks).

I'm no engineer, but to me pressure signs indicate that the case is being asked to do too much for that particular load and rifle. If you're getting heavy bolt lift and heavy ejector marks on the head, that's too much pressure. I will say with a fair amount of certainty that signs of overpressure may manifest themselves in different ways among different rifles (even if the amount of pressure is the same), so it's not quite as simple as knowing that you're at n PSI when a certain pressure sign shows up.

Two final thoughts to this ramble: (1) Most people say that heavy bolt lift is the most reliable sign of overpressure. Know what you're looking for and check other signs along the way. (2) If you can't rattle off all of the critical dimensions of your loaded round from memory, you're probably not familiar enough with the cartridge to mess around above max loads. Hyperbole, perhaps, but my point is that inconsistency gets more dangerous as you go up the charge scale. If you work up to a max load with a .005" jump and then load some rounds and end up with a .010" jam, you may have significantly increased the pressure. If you don't know where your bullet is relative to the lands, figure that stuff out first.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Blemish posted:



However, while I've have gotten the process down pat (except loading slugs and, eventually, slugs and buck), but the primer tray wont move down or pull in a primer when i pull the lever, not does much of it move at all. What have I done? The chain is taut, it worked yesterday but yet here I am, manually priming like a fool. Any ideas on what could be wrong? Common problems/solutions? I will high-five the man who can explain my new toy to me.

ninja edit:
- 3" shells are the max length this press can handle, right?

drat son. All I've got on your priming mechanism is this manual from MEC -- it's got some troubleshooting tips, but I can't offer any hints, since my priming system is different (the hand!)

Also, yes, 3" shells should do fine. You can always sacrifice a couple of hulls to check, with a bit of sand instead of powder and a spent instead of live primer.

Also, re. wad substitution, yes, the Claybusters are direct copies of the factory wads, and perfectly safe, functional, and cheap. My caution relates to different shapes of wad -- for example, if you can't find the WAA12SL wad for 1 oz loads, don't substitute in a WAA12 built for 1-1/8 oz loads. They have different lengths and can mess you up good.

Pursus
Nov 27, 2007

Hook on!


thermobollocks posted:

So you want to load some shotshells

Awesome! Linked it in the OP and the links section. While I was at it I also linked that great post from GroovinPickle that might have been overlooked on the first page.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



thermobollocks posted:

...
Place the primer rim down in the primer sink.

...

To add to this: Make sure a piece of stray shot does not find its way into the primer sink. A bit of #6 shot can really gently caress up/touch off a primer.

Picklesworthe
May 31, 2005


As someone just getting into reloading I have the chance to buy 92 lbs of once fired brass for about $150. 60% of it is 9mm and .40, the other 40% is .45, .38 special, and .223.

So, anyone who knows how much brass weighs and costs, is this a good deal?

Edit: I possess and regularly shoot all of those calibers.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Picklesworthe posted:

As someone just getting into reloading I have the chance to buy 92 lbs of once fired brass for about $150. 60% of it is 9mm and .40, the other 40% is .45, .38 special, and .223.

So, anyone who knows how much brass weighs and costs, is this a good deal?

Edit: I possess and regularly shoot all of those calibers.

For the pistol brass, I'd jump on that. Some folks in this forum weighed them out and got the following:

code:
9mm,     59.46gr/ea  117.7cases/#  8.5#/1000
38spl    68.06gr/ea  102.8cases/#  9.7#/1000
40s&w    70.1gr/ea   99.9cases/#   10#/1000
.357mag  78.3gr/ea   89.4cases/#   11.2#/1000
.45acp   89.58gr/ea  78.1cases/#   12.8#/1000
.223     95.28gr/ea  73.5cases/#   13.6#/1000 

Bedbouncer
Apr 9, 2008

with the bird I'll share this lonely view


thermobollocks posted:

Well, with shotshells, from brand to brand, the hulls have completely different internal shapes. This means that if you simply substitute out a spacious hull for a different brand, with less internal space, you will be going dangerously overpressure. The same goes for wads, and even primers.

Has anyone actually ruptured a shotgun with a non-obstructed load? Every shotgun I've ever seen has a heavily-built chamber, and the open space in the barrel is huge. Shotguns already use and are made for the fastest powders available (I think). Unlike rifles, the projectile is already fragmented and full of air pockets. At worst, a shotgun is a pipe bomb with an open end.

Wouldn't the safety margin be amazingly huge compared to a rifle or a pistol?

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Bedbouncer posted:

Has anyone actually ruptured a shotgun with a non-obstructed load? Every shotgun I've ever seen has a heavily-built chamber, and the open space in the barrel is huge. Shotguns already use and are made for the fastest powders available (I think). Unlike rifles, the projectile is already fragmented and full of air pockets. At worst, a shotgun is a pipe bomb with an open end.

Wouldn't the safety margin be amazingly huge compared to a rifle or a pistol?

Yes. Double charges and powder mixups happen, too. If you look at the pressure specs on the 12 gauge cartridge, the max is 11.5k PSI. This is even less than .38 special (17k PSI), 9x19mm, and .40 S&W (35k PSI). The dynamics are different, too. Rifles must handle 60k PSI over a relatively small total area, while a shotgun must handle a sixth of that over several times the area.

Looking at the basic operating pressures (not even the 20-30% jump in PSI required to proof it) and setting a rifle barrel down next to a shotgun barrel should show you that the shotgun's chamber has much weaker walls than the rifle chamber.

Based on operating pressure, my practice has been that shotguns have even less room for overpressure than rifles or pistols. Of course, any of our resident gunsmiths and pressure vessel nerds should feel free to correct me if I am being a Negative Nancy.

Edit: Also note that when I say "dangerous," I don't mean "total gun blowout." With a rifle or a pistol, you'd be looking at overpressure signs on the case mouth, head, and primer, while with a shotgun I think you'd start splitting hulls.

thermobollocks fucked around with this message at 19:33 on May 7, 2012

Steak Flavored Gum
Apr 26, 2007

ABANDONED HOMEWORLD FOR SALE, CHEAP!!!
Custom desert-marsh conversion in galactic core, 12% oxygen atm., great weather, friendly native life (missing one moon). Great fix-er-upper. Must sell, alien invasion imminent. $3995 or best offer.

thermobollocks posted:

Of course, any of our resident gunsmiths and pressure vessel nerds should feel free to correct me if I am being a Negative Nancy.

I am one of the resident pressure vessel nerds and I will 100% agree with you here.

What you have to watch out for with barrels is called "hoop stress": the circumferential stress produced in the walls of the pressure vessel due to pressures within the barrel, particularly in the chamber.

If we greatly oversimplify things for the purpose of exposition by assuming gun barrels to be thin-walled, although this isn't quite correct for radius/thickness ratios of less than 10, we can express this hoop stress easily by:
rho_h = P*r/t (where P is our chamber pressure, r is the radius of the chamber, and t is the radial thickness of the chamber wall).

Let's just consider AISI 4140 steel here:
http://www.efunda.com/materials/all...l%20AISI%204140

On an AR15, the barrel diameter around the chamber is 0.98 inches or about 24.9 mm. The case is about 9.3 mm in diameter. So with a pressure of 430 MPa (for 5.56x45mm NATO), the hoop stress works out to about 260 MPa. This is thankfully [i]well[/u] under the 1200+ MPa yield strength of hardened 4140 steel. (Again, I have horrendously simplified the case of a thick-walled chamber like an AR15's, but it should be illustrative)

The minimum chamber dimension for 12 gauge ammunition is 0.798" or 20.3 mm. Try as I might, I can't find standard dimensions for the breech end of the barrel, but let's assume 1", or 25.4 mm. 11.5 ksi for max 12 gauge is about 75.8 MPa. Let's run the hoop stress calculation again (and this time, the thin-walled assumption should be a bit better). This time, the hoop stress worked out to a bit over 300 MPa. Still should be plenty safe if the barrel is adequately heat treated. What if you somehow doubled the pressure? You've dramatically reduced your factor of safety.

As a final note, I have deliberately avoided mentioning the possibility of inconsistent heat treatment or metal fatigue to this point. Steel has never been shown experimentally to fail outright due to fatigue, however over the course of many many (over 1 million) cycles it can weaken significantly by up to 50% of its original ultimate tensile strength. This would be bad, but it's also probably what they design around for engineering purposes when calculating barrel dimensions. Inconsistent heat treatment is another serious issue. What if you somehow got a barrel that WASN'T heat treated, or was tempered way too hot? You'd be pretty much hosed. Annealed 4140 has a yield strength of 417 MPa. Get one shell that's 50% over max pressure and your barrel will be blown out like in one of those old cartoons.

Don't drop your guns in fires, kids!

Not Nipsy Russell
Oct 6, 2004

Failure is always an option.


"Dear CCI:

Would you kindly change your Magnum Small Pistol Primer packaging? I find that no matter how long I look at the package, I seem to miss the dark red on dark blue word "magnum" that's the same or smaller font size as "SMALL PISTOL PRIMER" which is in nice, high-contrast white on dark blue.

Sincerely,

gently caress You I Read The Box Three Times".

Anyone want 1000 Small pistol magnum primers? I've not yet read of any way to safely, reliably use them in non-magnum loads that doesn't sound like rule of thumb. I don't load nearly that much magnum stuff. Also - SPNon-Magnum primers seem to be running scarce again. Now that I've got them home, I've realized, in fact, I did not luck out and get the last box of SP primers in the county. The Obamanoia machine is cranking up, here we go again....

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010



I have 357 that needs loading and will happily take them off your hands.

Not sure you would want to ship them to NH, though.

emathey
May 18, 2008


Powder Valley still has plenty of small pistol primers in stock I bet, I just bought 17k of them.

Easychair Bootson
May 7, 2004

Where's the last guy?
Ultimo hombre.
Last man standing.
Must've been one.


I loaded some .223 Rem and checked it on my concentricity gauge, and wasn't thrilled with what I saw. Bullet runout ranged from .001-.006", with several of them falling in that higher range. I decided to divide the 30 round batch into three groups based on concentricity, and see how that played out on the target.

I shot three 10-round groups at 200 yards from the bench in a round-robin style to minimize effects of barrel heat, environmental conditions, and shooter fatigue. Here's what the target looks like:



Target #1 is the lot with the lowest (best) concentricity, #2 is the middle, and #3 was the worst. Target #1 is certainly the best of the bunch. That one high shot wasn't a called flier, but it was the first shot after a 5-10 minute break. I will note that this wasn't a blind test, and after putting two shots on each target it was clear that I wasn't going to get a good grouping on #2... maybe I subconsciously didn't concentrate as much on shooting those rounds as with the others.

Also, towards the end of the test, I accidentally shot one of my #1 rounds into the #2 target, making for 9 rounds on #1 and 11 rounds on #2 (I then also didn't fire the final #3 round). I don't think this mistaken shot affected the overall group size, however.

Based on these results, my conclusion is that concentricity is important, but perfect technique is critical.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

GroovinPickle posted:

Awesome data

I just had one of those this is crazy enough it might just work moments.

Ok,

To start with assume you have a fireformed cartridge so it's the exact shape/size of the chamber (minus springback)

Also assume you are always shooting the same type of match grade bullet. (so the profile/dimensions are all within 0.0005" reguarding bullet dimensions only)

I wonder IF you took a fireformed case and a bullet, Scanned each of them in a 3D scanner to get a CAD model of each made.

Take the CAD models and tweek them so both the bullet and case models are perfectly concentric. Mesh the two files together for your overall length (same as you'd be reloading them to a seating depth)

Then take that combined CAD model and get a die cut that has the EXACT profile of both the outer dimensions of your fireformed round WITH your bullet already seated in it.

Normal runout on a good lathe is 0.0002" and if that was compounded error with a Bad reamer ( 0.00015) you'd be seating something with at most a 0.00035 runout introduced by your dies?

Possibly a useable idea or am I missing some physical dimension here?

evilhat
Sep 13, 2004
When I get angry I turn into a Hat

Bedbouncer posted:

Has anyone actually ruptured a shotgun with a non-obstructed load? Every shotgun I've ever seen has a heavily-built chamber, and the open space in the barrel is huge. Shotguns already use and are made for the fastest powders available (I think). Unlike rifles, the projectile is already fragmented and full of air pockets. At worst, a shotgun is a pipe bomb with an open end.

Wouldn't the safety margin be amazingly huge compared to a rifle or a pistol?
I don't know I have had more trouble loading shotgun shells, then I have had making rifle and pistol rounds. The worst was a book buckshot load that would flow the brass into the injector.

For some reason a 525gn slug over 50 grains of bluedot, scares me more then say a 30-06 reload with a 150gn bullet over 58 grains of reloader 17.

I did finish fire forming my 22-250 to 6.5 creedmoor brass. I used a cheap 120gn speer hotcor over 13 grains of trail boss. Trail boss is really fun hahaha. The shoulder must of really moved for the ones with the popped back primers.

evilhat fucked around with this message at 02:36 on May 12, 2012

Easychair Bootson
May 7, 2004

Where's the last guy?
Ultimo hombre.
Last man standing.
Must've been one.


shalafi4 posted:

To start with assume you have a fireformed cartridge so it's the exact shape/size of the chamber (minus springback)
I'll be clear that I'm no expert, just brainstorming with you.

The main issue I can think of is that bullets and cases aren't exactly uniform. Good components get close to that, but when you're talking tolerances of less than a thousandth of an inch I don't think that even the best cases and bullets can achieve that. Even if you turn necks you'll have cases that grow ever-so-slightly differently due to variation in case wall thickness. Bullets themselves are responsible for at least some runout. Good seating dies support the case (act as a chamber), but there must be some wiggle room.

I think you've got to have some tolerance in your seating die to account for those variations, but yeah, there could be room for improvement with a custom die tweaked to a particular chamber. A seating stem that is customized for a particular bullet might be practical, too. But really it's sizing (either FL or neck) that seems to introduce the most runout.

This article might be of some interest on the subject. This one, too.

briefcasefullof
Sep 25, 2004
[This Space for Rent]

Just ordered the Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Lee 44mag factory crimp die

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


If you shoot cast bullets with the Lee FCD beware that it can swage down the diameter of the bullet to below what it should be because of the carbide sizing ring. I knocked the ring out of mine, which gave it a step that the thing sometimes catched on. Gonna have to round it out.

The FCD also refused to work in .45ACP with plated bullets and fiocchi cases for some reason. Also knocked out the ring in that one, no step in that IIRC and it loaded just fine afterwards.

Not Nipsy Russell
Oct 6, 2004

Failure is always an option.


His Divine Shadow posted:

If you shoot cast bullets with the Lee FCD beware that it can swage down the diameter of the bullet to below what it should be because of the carbide sizing ring. I knocked the ring out of mine, which gave it a step that the thing sometimes catched on. Gonna have to round it out.

The FCD also refused to work in .45ACP with plated bullets and fiocchi cases for some reason. Also knocked out the ring in that one, no step in that IIRC and it loaded just fine afterwards.

The bullet seating die in the regular kit does not do this when crimping, correct?

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Not Nipsy Russell posted:

The bullet seating die in the regular kit does not do this when crimping, correct?

Only their FCD dies do it as far as I know, don't know what ships with the regular kit but both my crimp dies came in a pistol caliber deluxe set. Regardless, if you have it and it does not cause problems, don't worry about it.

briefcasefullof
Sep 25, 2004
[This Space for Rent]

His Divine Shadow posted:

If you shoot cast bullets with the Lee FCD beware that it can swage down the diameter of the bullet to below what it should be because of the carbide sizing ring. I knocked the ring out of mine, which gave it a step that the thing sometimes catched on. Gonna have to round it out.

I saw this on a review from 2004 and hoped that in 8 years it'd changed... Oh well. I'll just have to see how it performs. I debated on ordering it and eventually settled with, "Welp, it's only 20 bucks, so it won't be too big a loss."

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

His Divine Shadow posted:

Only their FCD dies do it as far as I know, don't know what ships with the regular kit but both my crimp dies came in a pistol caliber deluxe set. Regardless, if you have it and it does not cause problems, don't worry about it.

most(?) of the Lee pistol dies can do a taper crimp when it seats the bullet.

That being said, it is a PITA to get correct all at once. Before I bought a seperate crimp die I would seat all the bullets without touching the taper section. Then I would remove the seater portion of the die and use it as a crimp die.

briefcasefullof
Sep 25, 2004
[This Space for Rent]

shalafi4 posted:

most(?) of the Lee pistol dies can do a taper crimp when it seats the bullet.

That being said, it is a PITA to get correct all at once. Before I bought a seperate crimp die I would seat all the bullets without touching the taper section. Then I would remove the seater portion of the die and use it as a crimp die.

I do this, basically. Seat, then crimp later. Hoping it'll work and provide an easier to adjust crimp, too.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


shalafi4 posted:

most(?) of the Lee pistol dies can do a taper crimp when it seats the bullet.

That being said, it is a PITA to get correct all at once. Before I bought a seperate crimp die I would seat all the bullets without touching the taper section. Then I would remove the seater portion of the die and use it as a crimp die.

I've always crimped separately as well. I don't see a reason todo it any other way unless I just had to use a station for something else.

Sten Freak
Sep 10, 2008

Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.


College Slice

God that does make a lot more sense to break those two steps up because it's truly a pita to get both dialed in.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.

Sten Freak posted:

God that does make a lot more sense to break those two steps up because it's truly a pita to get both dialed in.

Not really.

1. Seat bullet to correct depth
2. Back out seating stem
3. Put uncrimped round in press at the top of its stroke
4. Screw down seating die until it hits the case mouth.
5. lower the round, screw the seating die in another quarter turn, check crimp.
6. Repeat 5 until you like the crimp.
7. Tighten the lock ring.
8. Put round to top of its stroke, screw seating stem down until it touches the bullet.

Crimping as a separate operation is the ideal way to do it but I've done it the above way a few times and it doesn't take long at all.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

poopgiggle posted:

Not really.

1. Seat bullet to correct depth
2. Back out seating stem
3. Put uncrimped round in press at the top of its stroke
4. Screw down seating die until it hits the case mouth.
5. lower the round, screw the seating die in another quarter turn, check crimp.
6. Repeat 5 until you like the crimp.
7. Tighten the lock ring.
8. Put round to top of its stroke, screw seating stem down until it touches the bullet.

Crimping as a separate operation is the ideal way to do it but I've done it the above way a few times and it doesn't take long at all.

I've ran into problems doing it like that actually. If the bullets are too soft the crimp will start to grab at them before they are fully seated and it either changes the OAL or makes it all over the place. :/

Sten Freak
Sep 10, 2008

Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.


College Slice

It's also just hard to get it dialed in right and if anything changes all the work has to be repeated. I'd rather just run a batch through a 2nd die but that's me. I'll end up getting a couple crimping dies for sure.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.

shalafi4 posted:

I've ran into problems doing it like that actually. If the bullets are too soft the crimp will start to grab at them before they are fully seated and it either changes the OAL or makes it all over the place. :/

I load cast lead so I don't know what you're using that's softer.

Then again, I just need loads that are A-zone accurate so I don't really give a poo poo about minor variations in OAL as long as they feed.

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Not Nipsy Russell
Oct 6, 2004

Failure is always an option.


poopgiggle posted:

Not really.

1/2. Back everything out on the die - back the die body back up so that the shoulder does not touch the case mouth (keeps it from crimping too soon.
1. Seat bullet to correct depth
2. Back out seating stem
3. Put uncrimped round in press at the top of its stroke
4. Screw down seating die until it hits the case mouth.
5. lower the round, screw the seating die in another quarter turn, check crimp.
6. Repeat 5 until you like the crimp.
7. Tighten the lock ring.
8. Put round to top of its stroke, screw seating stem down until it touches the bullet.


Quoting this as I'm down, and added a step that was assumed, but shouldn't be. I have 3 different bullet loads for .38spl (HBWC, Plated Flat Nose, LRN), and only one .38spl die. It's fast and easy. From one batch with the same bullet, the seating depth/crimp size may not be Benchrest Fussy consistent, but I'm not after that. They are pretty damned consistent, though.

Step "1/2" eliminates the "it's crimping to soon" issue. When you get to step 5 and 6, all you're doing is moving the crimp in with every stroke. The bullet stays put.

Not Nipsy Russell fucked around with this message at 18:11 on May 14, 2012

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