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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


The Merkinman posted:

It's like, what is even the point of an extension if you're not going to maintain it?

Because you're not getting paid? Because you're not around to do it? Because not all software should need constant maintenance?


If you make an API, you're saying to the world "write to this spec, I've got the rest. I'll make sure anything that uses it stays compatible." You're the one signing up for that workload.

Now maybe the problem is that xpcom is a lovely api, so they couldn't follow that rule even with superhuman efforts. And eventually all things must pass, I get that. But mozilla have made some really awful decisions about how to handle the whole process. Too short a transition time, the completely terrible way they pushed extension writers to update their stuff for multiprocess then turned around and told them all that work was gonna be trashed, the continuing loss of reasons to even use firefox in the first place.

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Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


dissss posted:

It hasn’t been wildly popular since the days when it was a faster and lighter weight alternative to IE. In fact I’d say Firefox is in the position it’s is now in no small part due to bloating out and appealing to ‘power users’

Don’t get me wrong I think it’s too late for them to change tack and become more Chromelike (because they lost their normal users to Chrome and Safari years ago) but I can see where they’re coming from.

When exactly did firefox "bloat out"? FF has never gotten slower, the web itself bloated out. But the competition kept up with the web bloat better than firefox.

Firefox has a documented history of making decisions that favor normal users over power users. I doubt there are more than a handful of people that switched to chrome through an active decision that "firefox is too complicated". Sure, chrome has a smaller settings panel and they don't have about :preferences. But a lot of people never open a settings panel in the first place, much less go to about :prefs.

What really happened: google started showing everybody in the world a pop-up ad for chrome. That's why they have ~60% market share, full stop. Even in the heyday of Firefox they only had 30%, and that was with far worse competition.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Klyith posted:

When exactly did firefox "bloat out"?

Pocket and Firefox Hello (or whatever that video chat feature is (was?) called) are the most recent I can remember.

Features that should not belong in a web browser being forced down people's throats unless they install classic theme restorer. In the same browser that removed support for mng because the decoder was 'too large' a long time ago.


Now I'm not saying these things slowed down the browser, that was their really poor memory handling, but to say Firefox never experienced bloat is just untrue.

WattsvilleBlues
Jan 25, 2005

Every demon wants his pound of flesh

The installers for Firefox 32 and 64 bit on Windows are 10MB smaller for 55 than 54. What happened there?

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



WattsvilleBlues posted:

The installers for Firefox 32 and 64 bit on Windows are 10MB smaller for 55 than 54. What happened there?

There was a huge, hidden .bmp of this



which got removed. Pretty good move IMO.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


Geemer posted:

Not being "Chromelike" is the exact reason a lot of people use Firefox, though.

The more chromelike it got, the more people gave up and jumped ship. Badbrains making business and UI decisions.

Like you have to work to sink that far that fast. Its either arrogance: "The lesser people will see my genius as we suck the google cock" or delusion: "We are just TOO GOOD and no one notices any more!"

They will either quickly decide to find a way to keep the extensions working or google will get what it wanted years ago.

lightinwater
Jan 1, 2014


FRINGE posted:

The more chromelike it got, the more people gave up and jumped ship. Badbrains making business and UI decisions.

This kind of cognitive dissonance seems to be pervasive, I have a theory that being an open-source actually encourages people to gripe as being told that it's the browser of the people and for the people gives them the impression that if they bleat enough that they can remake the browser in their image

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Geemer posted:

Pocket and Firefox Hello (or whatever that video chat feature is (was?) called) are the most recent I can remember.

Features that should not belong in a web browser being forced down people's throats unless they install classic theme restorer. In the same browser that removed support for mng because the decoder was 'too large' a long time ago.


Now I'm not saying these things slowed down the browser, that was their really poor memory handling, but to say Firefox never experienced bloat is just untrue.

My impression is that Pocket and Hello is part of their mobile efforts that bled into desktop - your average desktop power user doesn't care, but once you start diving into cross-device tab syncing and shared histories etc. Pocket starts making more sense. Although Hello is still in sort of an awkward spot (leftovers from the rumored Firefox OS?).

Chasing the Chrome UI never made sense to me though, because the more you chased it the less reason there was to not switch to it. Optional changes is one thing, but when your UI updates start breaking plugin compatibility and workflows you're practically opening the door for people to leave.

Nalin
Sep 28, 2007



Hair Elf

I'm not sure how much bloat Hello was considering it was making use of WebRtc tech already built inside Firefox. And Pocket is practically just a button that brings you to a website. Both are pretty useless, but they are pretty much just ui skins over existing tech.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


lightinwater posted:

This kind of cognitive dissonance seems to be pervasive

There sure is a lot of it here. Too bad no one can sense it within themselves.

"Hey this browser is very chrome like and I was avoiding that. Welp, I guess Ill just use chrome since it doesnt matter anymore."

Have you ever had to monitor groups of users?

Toast Museum
Dec 3, 2005

30% Iron Chef


FRINGE posted:

"Hey this browser is very chrome like and I was avoiding that. Welp, I guess Ill just use chrome since it doesnt matter anymore."

A more charitable interpretation: "this browser lost the features I relied on, so now I'm choosing between Chrome and an inferior Chrome clone."

I'm not saying I agree, but it makes sense as a motivation, at least.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




isndl posted:

Once you start diving into cross-device tab syncing and shared histories etc. Pocket starts making more sense.

They already had Firefox Sync for that, though. I left that out of my list of 'bloat' features, because I can see its utility and why people would want it, even if I don't want it myself.

The big difference between Sync and Pocket is that Sync is just there in the background, not getting in your face if you don't use it. While Pocket forced a non-removable (without CTR) button onto your toolbar and into your context menu.

Desuwa
Jun 2, 2011

I'm telling my mommy. That pubbie doesn't do video games right!

Toast Museum posted:

A more charitable interpretation: "this browser lost the features I relied on, so now I'm choosing between Chrome and an inferior Chrome clone."

The extension to that is that this browser's leadership has shown that they're willing to make disruptive, sweeping changes to their browser without regard for my class of users (power users). Maybe Firefox will still be better than Chrome because Chrome is so locked down, but with Chrome I don't really have to worry that half of my extensions will break in five years when they decide that some extensions APIs aren't getting enough usage so they're getting rid of them.

See tab groups being kicked out into an extension, conveniently before FF 57, so they wouldn't have to maintain a feature that they initially committed to when they absorbed the original tab groups extension.

syzygy86
Feb 1, 2008



Geemer posted:

The big difference between Sync and Pocket is that Sync is just there in the background, not getting in your face if you don't use it. While Pocket forced a non-removable (without CTR) button onto your toolbar and into your context menu.

You can right click on the Pocket or Hello button in the toolbar and select Remove from Toolbar. Classic Theme Restorer was never required.

WattsvilleBlues
Jan 25, 2005

Every demon wants his pound of flesh

Ola posted:

There was a huge, hidden .bmp of this



which got removed. Pretty good move IMO.

Negative. I reviewed the source code and there is no evidence of this.

Your move, Ola.

Avenging Dentist
Oct 1, 2005

oh my god is that a circular saw that does not go in my mouth aaaaagh

syzygy86 posted:

You can right click on the Pocket or Hello button in the toolbar and select Remove from Toolbar. Classic Theme Restorer was never required.

You can also completely disable all aspects of Pocket by setting "extensions.pocket.enabled" to false.

(Hello was removed in 49.)

syzygy86
Feb 1, 2008



Avenging Dentist posted:

You can also completely disable all aspects of Pocket by setting "extensions.pocket.enabled" to false.

(Hello was removed in 49.)

Good to know. I didn't even notice that Hello was removed, I always just deleted the buttons for Hello and Pocket from the toolbar.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



I switched from Firefox to Chrome at some point and for me it basically boiled to the fact that they all got the basic job done, and each had some aspect I disliked, so I might as well go with the most popular one.

Generic Monk
Oct 31, 2011



Geemer posted:

They already had Firefox Sync for that, though. I left that out of my list of 'bloat' features, because I can see its utility and why people would want it, even if I don't want it myself.

The big difference between Sync and Pocket is that Sync is just there in the background, not getting in your face if you don't use it. While Pocket forced a non-removable (without CTR) button onto your toolbar and into your context menu.

i was always just able to drag the pocket button off my toolbar with no issues? i mean it's dumb that they keep re-adding it with every new profile (considering how depressingly often that's needed with firefox) but it never seemed like something to get that butthurt about. mozilla gotta get paid somehow

Alereon
Feb 6, 2004

Dehumanize yourself and face to Trumpshed

College Slice

Generic Monk posted:

mozilla gotta get paid somehow
They bought the developers of Pocket in February so they don't even have that excuse.

Generic Monk
Oct 31, 2011



TOOT BOOT posted:

I switched from Firefox to Chrome at some point and for me it basically boiled to the fact that they all got the basic job done, and each had some aspect I disliked, so I might as well go with the most popular one.

yeah this is the thing; chrome has way more resources behind it and seems to have the good sense to leave the ui (and extensions tbh, for better or worse) well enough alone (although the recent material design changes in the settings screens are a tad much imo) so you generally get something that works consistently and doesn't force people to relearn how to use it every year, which is what 99% of web users actually want. so mozilla is stuck in this weird position of trying to chase google's dragon or servicing their loyal but not exactly lucrative base of users who want customisation and openness above all else. maybe they should, idk, make a patreon?


ehhh i can't get mad at them now that it's essentially a feature of their browser. i used pocket a while back and it was pretty alright, although now i'm all in on apple and i think my appetite for read it later services has diminished now that i have access to relatively robust bookmark/tab syncing

spit on my clit
Jul 19, 2015

by Cyrano4747


I go to "about firefox" and it says i'm up to date despite being on 54.0.1, what gives

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


Generic Monk posted:

you generally get something that works consistently and doesn't force people to relearn how to use it every year, which is what 99% of web users actually want
This is probably the biggest issue, and the people making decisions seem dedicated to driving users away.

The "political" question is: Why?

Generic Monk posted:

mozilla is stuck in this weird position of trying to chase google's dragon or servicing their loyal but not exactly lucrative base of users who
It is sometimes possible to reclaim old users, but not by continuing to do the things that forced them away, and especially not by using the cunning strategy of "we want to be almost just like the other one".

Fangs404
Dec 20, 2004

I time bomb.

spit on my clit posted:

I go to "about firefox" and it says i'm up to date despite being on 54.0.1, what gives

Samesies. Did they pull the auto-update for 55.x?

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010



Mine auto-updated to 55.0.1 without any inputs from my side.
I hope I didn't gently caress up somehow.

astral
Apr 26, 2004



Jack Trades posted:

Mine auto-updated to 55.0.1 without any inputs from my side.
I hope I didn't gently caress up somehow.

only if you had planned to use the 52 ESR with that profile

Malloc Voidstar
May 7, 2007

Fuck the cowboys. Unf. Fuck em hard.

spit on my clit posted:

I go to "about firefox" and it says i'm up to date despite being on 54.0.1, what gives
They might be delaying the update until 55.0.2 is out (monday or tuesday)

MikusR
Jan 5, 2008


Geemer posted:

Pocket and Firefox Hello (or whatever that video chat feature is (was?) called) are the most recent I can remember.


That "bloat" was an icon and 10 lines of javascript.

Fangs404
Dec 20, 2004

I time bomb.

Malloc Voidstar posted:

They might be delaying the update until 55.0.2 is out (monday or tuesday)

This is my guess. Auto-update still isn't going.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust


Grimey Drawer

Why wouldn't you use Pocket anyway? I find articles impossible to read on my phone without it.

pairofdimes
May 20, 2001

blehhh


Fangs404 posted:

This is my guess. Auto-update still isn't going.

There's apparently a big bug if there's an apostrophe anywhere in the profile path: https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/co...pdates/dlkd9t3/

Fangs404
Dec 20, 2004

I time bomb.

pairofdimes posted:

There's apparently a big bug if there's an apostrophe anywhere in the profile path: https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/co...pdates/dlkd9t3/

55.0.2 is out now and auto-updating.

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars




Plaster Town Cop

During a coding crunch I end up with approximately a bajillion tabs open only because of "switch to tab" is so useful - type any part of the keyword and it instantly jumps you back to the one you were looking at. When I'm done for the day I just mass-close them all.

I use them as short-lived bookmarks of my current thought process. It's mostly API reference for whatever libraries I'm currently using, and some higher-level syntax because I bounce between 4-5 languages constantly and I can't keep it all in my head.

There must be a better way to do it - any suggestions?

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


Geemer posted:

The big difference between Sync and Pocket is that Sync is just there in the background, not getting in your face if you don't use it. While Pocket forced a non-removable (without CTR) button onto your toolbar and into your context menu.
Not sure about the context menu, but it's two clicks in FF57/Photon to pull it out of the address bar.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Vulture Culture posted:

Not sure about the context menu, but it's two clicks in FF57/Photon to pull it out of the address bar.

I was talking about when it was first introduced. But that's obviously irrelevant nowadays.

So let's talk about current issues: Firefox 55.0.1 hosed up my certs database, causing it to randomly stop loading pages on TLS handshakes. I had to delete the certs database file to fix it, and then do it again for 55.0.2, so that was cool.
Really made you notice how much stuff is loaded from external sources that use https.

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars




Plaster Town Cop

Geemer posted:

I was talking about when it was first introduced. But that's obviously irrelevant nowadays.

So let's talk about current issues: Firefox 55.0.1 hosed up my certs database, causing it to randomly stop loading pages on TLS handshakes. I had to delete the certs database file to fix it, and then do it again for 55.0.2, so that was cool.
Really made you notice how much stuff is loaded from external sources that use https.

Hopefully that was just 55.0.1 loving up the database, and anyone who didn't get .1 didn't have the problem with .2.

Geemer
Nov 4, 2010




Harik posted:

Hopefully that was just 55.0.1 loving up the database, and anyone who didn't get .1 didn't have the problem with .2.

Well, I have some bad news for you then. At least it's a lot less frequent now.

dis astranagant
Dec 14, 2006



I'm on beta track for some old issue or another and when it updated to 56b3 just now my bookmarks toolbar quit working. It's there and I can click the buttons but nothing happens.

e: for that matter none of my bookmarks work. ran places maintenance and that didn't help.

dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Aug 18, 2017

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars




Plaster Town Cop

Geemer posted:

Well, I have some bad news for you then. At least it's a lot less frequent now.

Oh Mozilla.

Harik posted:

During a coding crunch I end up with approximately a bajillion tabs open only because of "switch to tab" is so useful - type any part of the keyword and it instantly jumps you back to the one you were looking at. When I'm done for the day I just mass-close them all.

I use them as short-lived bookmarks of my current thought process. It's mostly API reference for whatever libraries I'm currently using, and some higher-level syntax because I bounce between 4-5 languages constantly and I can't keep it all in my head.

There must be a better way to do it - any suggestions?

Running out of time on this one - tabgroups keep 200 tabs open at once managable until I close the entire group, but that's going to be gone for an indefinite amount of time when the webexpocalypse happens.

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mike12345
Jul 14, 2008

"Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."







Harik posted:

During a coding crunch I end up with approximately a bajillion tabs open only because of "switch to tab" is so useful - type any part of the keyword and it instantly jumps you back to the one you were looking at. When I'm done for the day I just mass-close them all.

I use them as short-lived bookmarks of my current thought process. It's mostly API reference for whatever libraries I'm currently using, and some higher-level syntax because I bounce between 4-5 languages constantly and I can't keep it all in my head.

There must be a better way to do it - any suggestions?

I'm not sure are you asking for a technological fix or a change in your behaviour?

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