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Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

Mishaco posted:

Just curious and not exactly disagreeing with you; but why doesn't the M9 make a particularly good combat pistol? It passed all the indurance trials; in fact it passed the original XM9 trials and the XM10 trials and even passed the retrials which lead to the M92F to M92FS upgrade. Yes it did have a critical fault but that was corrected early on and seems to have done the job. Furthermore, honestly, pistols are not major players on most battlefields today.

All of your above points are valid and well taken. I can not dispute the M9's reliability and will say that the 92FS represents a solid pistol all around. Whoever states that the platform is lacking in any way is failing to recognize the solid service record the M9 has built and continues to build. However, the open slide design should be done away with; it might help balance the pistol perhaps and maybe add to reliability (instead of leaving the locking block lugs exposed to environmental elements).

Furthermore, and this is not a fault of the 92FS at all, the 124 gr. FMJ NATO loading is perhaps the worst loading for a 9mm service pistol.

I love the 92FS. I own one myself. They are accurate firearms. They are also, because of the open slide...very aesthetically pleasing which gives it a few points in my highly unscientific reasoning. As a police pistol, it is an excellent choice. As a combat handgun, it has disadvantages related and unrelated to its mechanical design.

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Flikken
Oct 22, 2009

10,363 snaps and not a playoff win to show for it


Mishaco posted:

Just curious and not exactly disagreeing with you; but why doesn't the M9 make a particularly good combat pistol? It passed all the indurance trials; in fact it passed the original XM9 trials and the XM10 trials and even passed the retrials which lead to the M92F to M92FS upgrade. Yes it did have a critical fault but that was corrected early on and seems to have done the job. Furthermore, honestly, pistols are not major players on most battlefields today.

Ah this question, it opens up a gigantic can of worms in the military community that almost always develops into retarded arguments about stopping power. The real problem is the M9 has been shoehorned into roles that a PDW like a HK MP7 or FN P90 are more suited for and well it performs in those roles poorly. There is nothing inherently wrong with the M9 design but it is getting a little aged and if it gets replaced then it will take less than 60 days for a litany of complaints from soldiers about how lovely the XM-whatever that replaces the M9 is and how they should have never switched. Basically what happened when the M9 replaced the M1911.

Kommienzuspadt
Apr 28, 2004

U like it


Chemystery posted:

All of your above points are valid and well taken. I can not dispute the M9's reliability and will say that the 92FS represents a solid pistol all around. Whoever states that the platform is lacking in any way is failing to recognize the solid service record the M9 has built and continues to build. However, the open slide design should be done away with; it might help balance the pistol perhaps and maybe add to reliability (instead of leaving the locking block lugs exposed to environmental elements).

Furthermore, and this is not a fault of the 92FS at all, the 124 gr. FMJ NATO loading is perhaps the worst loading for a 9mm service pistol.

I love the 92FS. I own one myself. They are accurate firearms. They are also, because of the open slide...very aesthetically pleasing which gives it a few points in my highly unscientific reasoning. As a police pistol, it is an excellent choice. As a combat handgun, it has disadvantages related and unrelated to its mechanical design.

The big complaint with the US military is that overhand manipulation of the slide can lead to activation of the safety and/or decocker, which is very undesirable. That and the problems with the M9 slide failures still do happen - albeit uncommonly - and it did not make a good impression. If they can make a DAO version of the 92A1 I think they would have a strong shot at the contract, though, my guess is s&w will take tihs one.

What is wrong with 124gr FMJ NATO vs any other possible 9mm load for military use? Expanding ammunition is out, keep in mind.... 124gr NATO is loaded to +P pressures I believe, i think with a muzzle velocity of something like 1200-1250fps? I can't think of a better 9mm load for military use myself. To make it ideal would just involve popping a Speer Gold Dot bullet in there instead of ball but that's not on the table.

Mishaco
May 4, 2005



I can understand about trying to make a pistol fit into a role it was never meant for. Because tehre is no real SMG any longer you go from an M4 carbine all the way down to an M9 pistol. I know what you are saying about the M9 getting a bit aged..after all its 30 years old. That said, in 1941, no one was thinking of replacing the M1911A1. In fact, most of those people who disdain the M9, would prefer to go back to the M1911 which is just crazy. I am sorry, but a stock milspec M1911 just isn't that great today and has several disadvantages. Americans always seem to keep wanting bigger bullets: 5.56mm vs 7.62mm and .45 cal vs 9mm. Hell, when it first came out, 7.62mm NATO was critized for not being as good as .30-06.

It would be interesting to know more about how other modern militaries feel about their service sidearms.

Flikken
Oct 22, 2009

10,363 snaps and not a playoff win to show for it


Mishaco posted:

I can understand about trying to make a pistol fit into a role it was never meant for. Because tehre is no real SMG any longer you go from an M4 carbine all the way down to an M9 pistol. I know what you are saying about the M9 getting a bit aged..after all its 30 years old. That said, in 1941, no one was thinking of replacing the M1911A1. In fact, most of those people who disdain the M9, would prefer to go back to the M1911 which is just crazy. I am sorry, but a stock milspec M1911 just isn't that great today and has several disadvantages. Americans always seem to keep wanting bigger bullets: 5.56mm vs 7.62mm and .45 cal vs 9mm. Hell, when it first came out, 7.62mm NATO was critized for not being as good as .30-06.

It would be interesting to know more about how other modern militaries feel about their service sidearms.

British troops I talked to hated their Powers but loved their P226's.

Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

Less bickering and mo' berettas



She can manipulate my slide any day :quagmire:



Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


I joined the Beretta club today :smug: Beretta 92FS




Last image - is the furthest right magazine a knockoff? It doesn't have the Beretta trademark and has a different bolt on the bottom.

The only wear on the frame is visible in the second picture: the BE in Beretta and the A in USA are both faded. Also the nighsights are dead but who cares.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

You didn't say it was a Vertec :gonk:

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


thermobollocks posted:

You didn't say it was a Vertec :gonk:

Oh you don't like new school? :cmon:

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Bigass Moth posted:

Oh you don't like new school? :cmon:

Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

That third magazine might be a Mec-Gar based off my casual glancing of the baseplate. Mec-Gar's are great magazines and unless its a promag or an eagle magazine, it should be just as reliable as the factory mags.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


Chemystery posted:

That third magazine might be a Mec-Gar based off my casual glancing of the baseplate. Mec-Gar's are great magazines and unless its a promag or an eagle magazine, it should be just as reliable as the factory mags.

Thanks. I'm not worried about it or anything, it seats just as well as the others. If it gives me any trouble at the range I'll be sure to note it.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Bigass Moth posted:

Thanks. I'm not worried about it or anything, it seats just as well as the others. If it gives me any trouble at the range I'll be sure to note it.

Look for some M's around the magazine body. Mec-Gars are pretty solid work.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


thermobollocks posted:

Look for some M's around the magazine body. Mec-Gars are pretty solid work.

the markings read "M D S CAL 9 PARA - MADE IN ITALY"

Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

Mec-Gar mag spotted!

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bigass Moth posted:

I joined the Beretta club today :smug: Beretta 92FS




Last image - is the furthest right magazine a knockoff? It doesn't have the Beretta trademark and has a different bolt on the bottom.

The only wear on the frame is visible in the second picture: the BE in Beretta and the A in USA are both faded. Also the nighsights are dead but who cares.

Seconding the "you didn't say it was a Vertec." Also, the lettering may have been filled in by the previous owner; I've never seen a Vertec with the lettering like that.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


What do you guys have against Vertecs exactly?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bigass Moth posted:

What do you guys have against Vertecs exactly?

You misunderstand. Vertechood is a bonus.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


infrared35 posted:

You misunderstand. Vertechood is a bonus.

Can you explain why? I'm very happy with my purchase and hopefully it feels as good shooting as it does holding.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bigass Moth posted:

Can you explain why? I'm very happy with my purchase and hopefully it feels as good shooting as it does holding.

It's got a thinner grip, it's got a light rail, and it's got a swappable front sight.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


I know that I just didn't realize it was such a better option. Guess I did get a good deal huh? :snoop:

Kennebago
Nov 12, 2007

van de schande is bevrijd
hij die met walkuren rijd


Kommienzuspadt posted:

overhand manipulation of the slide
Second retarded question: why would anyone ever rack a slide overhand instead of slingshot?

E: Actually I've never understood any of the gross motor skill thing behind slide racking.

I have fingers long enough to reach up and flick the slide stop on my PX4. Why is trigger manipulation something I am expected to perform under stress, but moving my thumb like a half inch or less is gently caress OH poo poo gently caress?

Kennebago fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Sep 16, 2011

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



Dynamic Economy of :bustem:

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Conservation of Angular Potentiation.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Operating Rod posted:

Second retarded question: why would anyone ever rack a slide overhand instead of slingshot?

I find it more comfortable/natural to slingshot...maybe I've watched too many action movies or my hands/wrists are just retarded.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

iyaayas01 posted:

I find it more comfortable/natural to slingshot...maybe I've watched too many action movies or my hands/wrists are just retarded.

Same here. I hate doing the overhand thing, especially with a Beretta.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Bigass Moth posted:

What do you guys have against Vertecs exactly?

I just dislike the grip angle.

Sten Freak
Sep 10, 2008

Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.


College Slice

I've always been a fan of the 92FS, if for no other reason than Riggs and Lethal Weapon viewing during my formative years.


I have a (hurr) Taurus PT100 in .40 which has been great but I want a Beretta in 9mm and of the Riggs' era. Is there any particular sub model or designation I should look for or avoid?

Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

Assuming you get a beretta model that is pre-FS (i.e. fixed slide) such as a 92SB or 92F, the added bonus of it not being the mainstay of 99.99999% of other beretta owners with 92FS will leave you with a unique and simply awesome pistol.

As far as the slide flying off and hitting you in the face...I doubt that will happen. Honestly, get whatever you find as a good deal. Want to be special? Hunt down a 92SB or pre FS variant.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Sten Freak posted:

I've always been a fan of the 92FS, if for no other reason than Riggs and Lethal Weapon viewing during my formative years.


I have a (hurr) Taurus PT100 in .40 which has been great but I want a Beretta in 9mm and of the Riggs' era. Is there any particular sub model or designation I should look for or avoid?

I feel you are obliged to only shot cop killa bullets out of this gun when you get it.

I don't think there's anything too complicated about Riggs' gun; I would just look for a straight 92F.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


I took my vertec shooting today. Very nice low recoil and good follow up shots. Only negative is that loading the magazine is obnoxiously difficult, by far the hardest mags I've loaded of all the pistols I've fired.

McNally
Sep 12, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?


iyaayas01 posted:

I feel you are obliged to only shot cop killa bullets out of this gun when you get it.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bigass Moth posted:

I took my vertec shooting today. Very nice low recoil and good follow up shots. Only negative is that loading the magazine is obnoxiously difficult, by far the hardest mags I've loaded of all the pistols I've fired.

Let me guess - ten-rounders?

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


infrared35 posted:

Let me guess - ten-rounders?

Yes, the springs must be made of adamantium.

Do factory 15 round mags fit flush?

Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 24, 2011

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Bigass Moth posted:

Yes, the springs must be made of adamantium.

Do factory 15 round mags fit flush?

They look just like the tens when they're in the gun - they're "flush" and they have that same kind of floor plate. The tens are just pinched in at the sides so you can't fit as many rounds in. If you're in a position to (legally) get some fifteens, the best ones are factory mags (of course) or Mec-Gar or MGS magazines. Both of those are identical to the factory mags but are usually a little cheaper. Sometimes places like CDNN will have good deals on used mags. Just don't be tempted by the $7 Eagle mags unless it's strictly a range gun and you're willing to take chances on whether they actually work or not.

Chemystery
Sep 11, 2011

Maybe this world is another planet's hell...

Bigass Moth posted:

Yes, the springs must be made of adamantium.

Do factory 15 round mags fit flush?

I know IR35 will probably tisk at this but here you go, dude.

I just snagged some 30 rounders, but the 20 rounders and 18 rounders are also tits.

If you live in a 10 rounder only state, ship it in as a rebuild kit

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Chemystery posted:

I know IR35 will probably tisk at this but here you go, dude.

I just snagged some 30 rounders, but the 20 rounders and 18 rounders are also tits.

If you live in a 10 rounder only state, ship it in as a rebuild kit

Those are good mags (Mec-Gar and MGS) and the prices aren't bad. If anything's out of stock there, check with Top Gun Supply.

And don't forget to see what CDNN has. And while you're there, check their specials page. Sometimes they'll have free shipping or they'll be throwing in goodies for orders over a certain amount, or they'll give you a magazine pouch for every pair of mags you buy, etc.

As a matter of fact, it just so happens that they have free shipping on Internet orders $50 and up, plus Beretta factory 15-rounders are on sale for $17.99 each.

infrared35 fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Sep 25, 2011

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


infrared35 posted:

They look just like the tens when they're in the gun - they're "flush" and they have that same kind of floor plate. The tens are just pinched in at the sides so you can't fit as many rounds in. If you're in a position to (legally) get some fifteens, the best ones are factory mags (of course) or Mec-Gar or MGS magazines. Both of those are identical to the factory mags but are usually a little cheaper. Sometimes places like CDNN will have good deals on used mags. Just don't be tempted by the $7 Eagle mags unless it's strictly a range gun and you're willing to take chances on whether they actually work or not.

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know.

Mad Dragon
Feb 29, 2004



Beretta makes factory 17s for 92s now.

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Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...


Mad Dragon posted:

Beretta makes factory 17s for 92s now.

:flashfap: my wallet is so thin dawg don't tell me these things

Holy frijoles those 17 rounders are about twice as expensive as the 15s. No thanks :allears:

Bigass Moth fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Sep 25, 2011

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