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kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


It's way the gently caress stronger than the 1x5 the joists were hanging on previously so it netted a "looks good to me".

I'm also fireblocking the holy hell out of the place. Fireblock below bracket, fireblock at second floor level, fireblock in between floor joists right next to bracket. By the time fire touches metal the entire second floor will be falling intact onto the ashes of the first.

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Hypnolobster
Apr 12, 2007

What this sausage party needs is a big dollop of ketchup! Too bad I didn't make any. :(



Fireblock: how to completely satisfy the urge to Great Stuff the gently caress out of everything.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


Unfortunately Great Stuff is a pretty mediocre firestop.

For proper kastein overkill, you should insulate the wall cavities with dense pack cellulose. ~20% fire retardant by weight means it takes a very long time to burn through...

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

I believe these:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...94069381&rt=rud

are more Kastein level overkill.

They're just horrendously expensive.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Zhentar posted:

Unfortunately Great Stuff is a pretty mediocre firestop.

For proper kastein overkill, you should insulate the wall cavities with dense pack cellulose. ~20% fire retardant by weight means it takes a very long time to burn through...

I've been using fiberglass blow-in and packing it as tight as I can before the blowing machine trips its breaker. It's pretty alright.

For fireblocking I use lumber trimmed to the right size so it has to be hammered in between the joists (~1/16 overlength) and then seal any/all wire openings and crevices with orange firestop rated expanding foam.

Also when I designed these ledgers I basically chose what was definitely overkill and available cheap at my local steel supplier and then doubled it. Dirty Beluga's question got me thinking though so I pulled out my favorite free online beam calculator and dinked around a bit.

My T beams are 4" wide, 3" tall, 0.5" vertical web, 0.25" top flange. No such WT profile existed so I used the WT3x4.5 as a safe underestimate. Same dimensions except 0.215" top flange (ehhh close enough, and smaller) and 0.17" vertical web (:lol: this is going to be a SERIOUS underestimate, by nearly a factor of 3. We'll call that the "jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams" safety factor for the purposes of this analysis.)

Results, assuming 16"OC support and a joist loading exactly in the center:
- assume 10 kip downforce from joist (far, far in excess of what will ever be experienced)
- assume 29ksi steel strength

Max displacement: 0.031" (that's 1/16". I'm fine with this.)
Max shear: 5ksi (haaaa)

So basically since there are 13 joists supported by these brackets, a total of 26 support points, my floor will sag 1/16" if 130 tons of load are applied. Even assuming the steel has lost 2/3 of its strength (~670C, hot enough to melt aluminum) in a fire.

I am pretty sure the joists will splinter and/or the studs will crumble into dust long before that point. Not really concerned about these brackets. I knew they were overbuilt but had no idea I had overbuilt them that much. :haw:

Also I finished welding the last one last night, so pictures at lunch and I'll be painting and hanging it tonight and maybe putting up more joists.

e: wait, 0.031" is 1/32", not 1/16". I am even less worried now. These are overbuilt by like a factor of... at least tenfold, probably more. 150psf floor loading would mean roughly 1100 pounds per joist end, and I'm only sagging about 1/32" at 10,000 pounds per joist end, at temperatures that will reduce the studs supporting the brackets to ash and melt aluminum.

kastein fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Sep 11, 2015

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Two nights ago: put some fireblocking/shimming in place (1/2" plywood - the new wall here wasn't exactly placed in the same spot as the old one, so the old rim joist seen here, from when the house was a two bedroom cottage before the third bedroom+living room addition was added) and added 11 5" RSS bolts to hold the rim joist to the studs and cornerposts. I don't think it's going anywhere.



Last ledger bracket is done. Just needs paint and it can be bolted up... with 3.5" 5/16" RSS screws. Ten of them. AKA it would take over 19 tons to shear all 10 simultaneously, disregarding the clamp load carrying capacity. So just the bolts holding these brackets up (there are 4 brackets, this is one of the shorter ones with fewer bolts but we'll discount that to make things mathematically simpler) support a maximum load of roughly 788psf on this floor, assuming they are loose in the brackets rather than actually clamping them to the studs.

This is the weld connecting the top of the T together. It looks a bit undercut, but that's because I beveled both pieces of angle iron so the weld bead wouldn't protrude and didn't care enough to completely fill the V in. The weld penetrated very well and is ~0.25" cross section as-is. Since each of the welded-on pieces supports a maximum of two joist ends, I'm really not concerned.


Decentish weld holding the bottom of the T together. Not quite straight because I couldn't find my welding gloves so I was standing hunched over the workpiece and didn't have anything to prop against.


Kinda ropy. My wirespeed was a bit high for the current I was running.


Again, looks undercut, but it's really more that I didn't bother to fill it back in all the way.


Here's probably the best bead I ran all night, right after getting all the settings dialed in.




So all I need to do tonight is shoot some paint on it, rout out the notches in the studs it'll be attached to, bolt it up, and then we can hang the remainder of the joists!

REMINDER TO SELF: Hey dumbass, remember to use a block and tackle to lower the old radiators between the joists BEFORE laying subflooring or you're gonna be carrying them down the stairs, dammit!

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Put 'em out an upstairs window and post yard impact depths with pics. :clint:

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011


Splizwarf posted:

Put 'em out an upstairs window and post yard impact depths with pics. :clint:

For this to be scientific you need to till the yard between tosses.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


They weigh too much to comfortably throw (like 300lb each, maybe more) and I am keeping them for a possible shop build, so I don't want to damage them that much, or I totally would.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer


Only Ken would decide the most logical way to put his house back together would be to weld it.

Slow is Fast
Dec 25, 2006



Motronic posted:

Only Ken would decide the most logical way to put his house back together would be to weld it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Or ultimateforce, but I use dayglo orange paint for marking things, not lime green.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist



Welding the wood itself is the next logical step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0k04hjdYuQ

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Alright, what in the gently caress? That actually works?

Mind blown. Thanks for that, I learned something today.

:psyboom:

Veeb0rg
Jul 24, 2001

THIS CONVERSATION IS NONPRODUCTIVE!

Enourmo posted:

Welding the wood itself is the next logical step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0k04hjdYuQ

Wow, thats pretty badass. Would be a pain in the rear end to do in the field but would be great for prefab stuff.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.



Pillbug

kastein posted:

Alright, what in the gently caress? That actually works?

Mind blown. Thanks for that, I learned something today.

:psyboom:

All you need is that cracked AX15 bellhousing and you can shove the wood right in there on the clutch and flywheel sides.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Got the last ledger bracket drilled, painted, studs routed for mounting, mounted it, and hung the last 5 joists!

(well, aside from the last one closest to the hallway that is a special case, and the rim joist at the other end, which has to wait till I jack that wall up and replace the sill beam under the last wall.)

Studs routed:


Ledger hung:


Joists hung and bolted down! So glad I only have two more to wrestle around because they are clumsy as hell even though they don't weigh much.


That's all for now, I have a ton of stuff to do the next few evenings preparing for my brother's wedding and won't be back till Sunday night.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Still wrangling with / forgetting to wrangle with dumpster companies... but I just ordered a furnace. Should be here Tuesday or Wednesday. Then I have to blow a few grand on hydronic heating PEX and figure out heated floor pipe routing.

One way or another there will be heat in this goddamn house this winter.

Slung Blade
Jul 10, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST



Does that exclude you saying " gently caress ALL OF THIS" and keeping warm with the nice inviting glow of premeditated insurance fraud?


Because, were I in your shoes, I'd be tempted, even with the incredible amount of work you've done.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

All that work is a great cover to point to while shaking his head vigorously and denying all charges. And he is kind of a "long-view"/"7 Ps" type.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist



That's not the AI thing to do. When you get yourself into a clusterfuck of a project like this, you see that poo poo through to the end with nothing to show but something you could have bought in good condition for half the cost, and the respect of people on the internet. As it loving well should be.

That or you quit with a post about the thrill of taking a corner too fast and march your plaid shorts over to reddit to continue on the wrong path.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Slung Blade posted:

Does that exclude you saying " gently caress ALL OF THIS" and keeping warm with the nice inviting glow of premeditated insurance fraud?


Because, were I in your shoes, I'd be tempted, even with the incredible amount of work you've done.

I have nowhere else to live and all of my worldly belongings are in this house.

Not happening, especially when the hard part is almost over :v:

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Well, now I have a mental image of a house writhing down the street with a lovely giant chimney and various sections of different color shingles, the walls tilting steeply outward at the bottoms with first-floor windows three inches off the ground, and Hellaflush and shocker stickers all over an oversize leaky Ebay skylight being used as a picture window for the no-permits breakfast nook and garret installed off the upstairs half-bath. The V-TEC kicks in washing machine hits the spin cycle and of course it comes into the next turn way too hot. It rolls, throwing shattered MDF and Toblerone wrappers everywhere. What comes to rest in a neighbor's garden is just a two-story roll cage with an upside-down goonthrone suspended in the center from a torn four-point pleather harness. A helmet with a head in it drips slowly at the end of a HANS bolted to the headrest.

10 Beers
May 21, 2005

Shit! I didn't bring a knife.



Slung Blade posted:

Does that exclude you saying " gently caress ALL OF THIS" and keeping warm with the nice inviting glow of premeditated insurance fraud?


Because, were I in your shoes, I'd be tempted, even with the incredible amount of work you've done.

He always has booze and his burning hatred of dumpster companies to keep him warm.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Got a bunch more structural work done this weekend.

Last new joist is in. At one end it connects to the new 4x6 cornerpost I put in, at the other end it connects to the ledger bracket, a new stud I put in, and another new stud I put in. In the middle it supports the end of this 4x8 beam:

Said beam was entirely unsupported at this end because the previous owner dimwits over the last 120 years did this addition and cut out a weight bearing wall above and below this floor. Further, they left joists hanging on this beam in both directions. And the nearest joist in the master bedroom was the one that had a two foot gap in it for a chimney and had been poorly spliced back together with like six feet of 2x6 and a few nails. Gee I wonder why the floor in the hall was so flexy? Oh well now it's held up by a 2x12 joist with 6 4" 5/16 GRK RSS bolts run through it.

New stud, ledger, new stud, new joist, old stud.


Fireblocking in at one end of the new floor.


And at the other end.


The two sets of crossbracing will have to wait, probably doing car repairs at my parents place tonight.

dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

Are you planning to do the radiant heating on both living floors for the winter or just the upper living area? Plans for insulation?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Insulation is dense-pack fiberglass everywhere I can put it. Radiant will be on every floor, since I only have a couple radiators that the PO didn't take with them and they're intended for steam anyways. I'll be keeping the radiators and (if it isn't rotted through) the boiler from the original system just in case I happen to find the money to build a shop soon.

dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

kastein posted:

Insulation is dense-pack fiberglass everywhere I can put it. Radiant will be on every floor, since I only have a couple radiators that the PO didn't take with them and they're intended for steam anyways. I'll be keeping the radiators and (if it isn't rotted through) the boiler from the original system just in case I happen to find the money to build a shop soon.

[captain obvious]winter's coming[/captain obvious]

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I have no idea what you're getting at there (probably missing some sort of movie/pop culture reference, as usual), but the furnace just got delivered :woop:


Alright. Who knows a good, cheap way to get hydronic radiant floor routing planning done? I can only find the expensive ways.

Cpt.Wacky
Apr 17, 2005


kastein posted:

Alright. Who knows a good, cheap way to get hydronic radiant floor routing planning done? I can only find the expensive ways.

He doesn't talk so much about the routing but Mr. Money Mustache did a DIY radiant heating system:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/02/16/the-radiant-heat-experiment/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/02/06/the-radiant-heat-experiment-did-it-work/

Dragyn
Jan 23, 2007

Please Sam, don't use the word 'acumen' again.



When you say MMM and DIY radiant heating in the same sentence, I assumed this involved free bendy straws from fast food restaurants.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


He's taken a very different route than me (underfloor for all his zones instead of over the subflooring and under the floor covering, homebuilt furnace system, etc) and not covered routing, but that was interesting and I got some sources for buying materials I didn't have before, so thanks a ton!

Properly figuring out the routing seems like it would be best done by a computer program, but unfortunately all the ones I've found are expensive (spelled with a capital E and capital "holy gently caress".)

Safety Dance
Sep 10, 2007

Five degrees to starboard!



I'll be curious to hear what you come up with when you get it figured out. I've got theories based on my understanding of salt concentration gradients in the kidney, but they're vague and hand wavey at best.

GentlemanofLeisure
Aug 27, 2008


Goon "the spyder" has a thread in AI, I'm sure youve seen it, he built a garage and put radiant floor heating in it. He did it in the concrete slab, so different than your plan, but he may be another resource for planning/poo poo you didn't think of, etc.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


A garage can easily be done with basic rules of thumb and work well enough; it's a simple case with large thermal mass.

It's my understanding that some online stores that carry radiant heating parts will provide cheap/free design services if you buy parts from them, though I wouldn't be surprised if the quality of them is poor.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


You're right, but their parts prices are loving insane, generally, and I have no idea if their designs are worth a poo poo.

Basically I'm pretty sure I need to settle on a tube spacing (this is pretty standardized at 8 inches iirc), which gives me tube length per unit area, then find the area of the rooms, LCD of the room areas (with some fudge factor) gives the max loop area. Then figure out how many loops in parallel per room based off that and the max loop length, then route each room for minimal delta-T on the floor given each loop length (AKA put more heat into the outside edges of the room and make sure they don't all terminate in the same spot leading to a cold spot.)

e:

I'm probably way overcomplicating this. Some sites (http://www.houseneeds.com/learning-center/pex-tubing-radiant-floor-heating/pex-tubing-under-floor-radiant-heating-install-diary) are recommending 200-300 feet as the max loop length, including the line to the furnace. So if I went with 150 feet or so and split each room roughly in half it would be easy.

The only thing I'm really concerned about getting right is delta-T across each loop, which seems pretty low, only like 15 degrees from that mrmustache guy's blog. I'm not sure I'd really notice that. It also seems like most under-floor radiant installs basically don't even pay attention to it so I'm not sure how much it matters.

example:
Master bedroom: 13x15 feet, give or take. That's 195 square feet or 28080 square inches. A tube every 8 inches means 3510 inches or 293 feet of tube, approx. Using the example of 150 feet per loop, two loops in parallel would cover that room.


e2: holy poo poo the amazon link from mrmustache's blog for heat transfer plates is incredibly cheap compared with the prices I was seeing elsewhere. 180 bucks a room (roughly) for heat transfer plates? Hell yes I will.

kastein fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 29, 2015

TacoHavoc
Dec 31, 2007
It's taco-y and havoc-y...at the same time!

If you go here:

http://www.uponorpro.com/Technical-Support/Manuals.aspx

And hit the "Complete Design Assistance Manual (CDAM) 7th Edition - Full Copy" link, read chapter 8 and use the associated appendices. It explains how to manually calculate what their expensive program will do for you. You will have to do a heat loss calc (manually or with a program, up to you), but other than that it should be pretty simple.

I work in the HVAC industry (on the software/hardware side), if you have any specific questions on this stuff I can probably get answers from a guy at work for you.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I ended up finding some free radiant design software from a company called Watts (IIRC) so I am giving that a try before I read a lot and learn the hard way. Thanks a ton though, that book tells me way more than I ever expected to learn.

We were using the old seats from a Roadmaster as bonfire seating but they kept digging into the ground and tipping over backward.

So I threw together a quick base for them. Need to mount a 6-pack holder in the middle ahead of the seats.


Next up: finish crossbracing in master bedroom floor.

10 Beers
May 21, 2005

Shit! I didn't bring a knife.



Ha, that's awesome!

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Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007


Well what's attached to a leash that it made itself?
The punchline is the way that you've been fuckin' yourself





kastein posted:

We were using the old seats from a Roadmaster as bonfire seating but they kept digging into the ground and tipping over backward.

So I threw together a quick base for them. Need to mount a 6-pack holder in the middle ahead of the seats.


Are all your friends as tall as you? Most of us normal sized folk would be left with legs dangling like children. :)

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