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kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


No dice there. The floor won't support any sort of vehicle and the 5 ton's hood is about 3 inches from hitting that header.

A proper garage/shop is probably in the future though.

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Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


kastein posted:

And yeaah I went with 2x6 walls because of the higher strength and R value of a 5.5" cavity vs 3.5".

Good on you. A 2x6 wall with 24" centers is better than a 2x4 wall with 16" centers in pretty much every way. 2x4 exterior walls are for people who hate quality and common sense.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist



Zhentar posted:

Good on you. A 2x6 wall with 24" centers is better than a 2x4 wall with 16" centers in pretty much every way. 2x4 exterior walls are for people who hate quality and common sense.

But the 2x4s are cheaper!!!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Zhentar posted:

Good on you. A 2x6 wall with 24" centers is better than a 2x4 wall with 16" centers in pretty much every way. 2x4 exterior walls are for people who hate quality and common sense.

And this is a 2x6 wall on 16" centers, so it's pretty goddamn solid.

It replaces a 2x4 wall on 16" centers with the sheathing and a rim joist halfheartedly holding the first and second floor studs together, sorta, kinda.

I was a bit fishy about framing the window with a single 2x6 header like that, but the original 2x4 wall was done that way and it held up for a century, and it's not in a weight bearing wall, so I figured it'd be fine. It was that or build something massively overkill.

That patio door header consists of 4 2x6s (2 horizontal, 2 vertical) held to the king studs with 3.5" #10 SPAX structural screws and to each other with a 12d common nail every foot or so. I don't think it's going anywhere at this point, but I'm a little curious what the max rated load hanging from the center would be if any structural engineers are reading this while bored. Speccing the right size is well past my structural engineering skills so I just went straight for overkill, constrained by the materials on hand (an assload of 2x6s.)

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


Enourmo posted:

But the 2x4s are cheaper!!!

In clear wall, the 24" OC spacing more than offsets the the cost of 2x6 lumber. In Kastein's nothing but windows and doors wall, then the spacing doesn't help so much, but labor savings can still make up for it.


kastein posted:

I was a bit fishy about framing the window with a single 2x6 header like that, but the original 2x4 wall was done that way and it held up for a century, and it's not in a weight bearing wall, so I figured it'd be fine. It was that or build something massively overkill.

IRC 602.7.3

quote:

Load-bearing headers are not required in interior or exterior nonbearing walls. A single flat 2-inch by 4-inch (51 mm by 102 mm) member may be used as a header in interior or exterior nonbearing walls for openings up to 8 feet (2438 mm) in width if the vertical distance to the parallel nailing surface above is not more than 24 inches (610 mm). For such nonbearing headers, no cripples or blocking are required above the header.

If your window were a couple inches higher, you wouldn't even need cripples for your single header, and you don't need the jack studs either (other than for nailing area for siding).

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Goddamn, that's hack as gently caress and this is why code is a minimum, not something to strive for.

The wall was mostly windows before, I just made one of em... a bit bigger. A lot bigger, really.

Those cripples over the window are 27.5" and the ones over the door are 22-23" or so, IIRC. So yeah, a few less inches over the window and I wouldn't need them at all, technically.

dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

kastein posted:

And this is a 2x6 wall on 16" centers, so it's pretty goddamn solid.

Strength aside, I think I read somewhere 24" centers are better for insulation. Presumably because it's less breaks in the wall so you can have continuous insulation.

But I would have built it like you did regardless.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist



dreesemonkey posted:

Strength aside, I think I read somewhere 24" centers are better for insulation. Presumably because it's less breaks in the wall so you can have continuous insulation.

But I would have built it like you did regardless.

Well you lose the thickness of the stud per center length, so 2 out of 16 vs 2 out of 24.

12.5% of wall length is taken up by stud for 16" centers
8.3% for 24"

for a difference of 4.2% extra volume per center length.

Pretty trivial compared to the 50% extra volume from the increased thickness regardless of center length.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Every stud is also a bridge for heat to move out of the insulated area without having to pass through insulation. You lose a lot more heat through the studs than you do through the insulated sections of the wall even though the studs make up a comparatively small amount of the wall's area.

If you really want a strongly-insulated wall then you can do things like have a 2x8 sole plate and 2x6 studs, where the odd studs are flush with the interior edge of the plate, and the even studs are flush with the exterior. That way no stud reaches all the way across the plate to form that bridge, and you can have insulation covering the entire wall (except for openings of course).

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Please don't make me calculate thermal conductivities and poo poo like that to figure out which is better :psyboom: I'm curious now but not motivated enough to do so.

(it's the same equations as calculating the equivalent resistance/conductivity of a network of resistors)

Also, I really don't want to think about how bouncy the walls must be if you only have every other stud contacting them. If anything I'd go with two 2x4 walls back to back with a couple inches of airgap in between for high R value.

I think 2x6 walls with dense packed blown in fiberglass, modern 5/8" ultralight drywall, modern windows, ZIPsystem sheathing properly seam taped, and modern siding will be significantly better than true dimensional 2x4s, ZERO insulation (except where it fell down from the attic), plaster/lath, and barn boards + regular wooden siding was.

dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

Have you thought of doing a rigid foam on the outside of the Zip system undernear the siding or are we talking diminishing returns at that point?

I'd like to reside my house in a few years and was strongly considering insulated siding or taped 1" foam rigid underneath.

dreesemonkey fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Nov 10, 2015

Budgie
Mar 9, 2007
Yeah, like the bird.

I think when you're 'done' you should take an inventory of which parts of the house are still original. That list will be entertainingly short based on the content of this thread.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


dreesemonkey, I have, but I'm not sure I like how it ends up looking if you put the foam over the window mounting flanges, and I don't like how insecure the window ends up if you put it under them.

Budgie, the original plan was to have the following things left:
- foundation
- frame
- water heater
- dining room floor
- basement slop sink
- kitchen sink
- front door
- living room floor
- maybe the kitchen front door.

- The foundation I'd say I have about 80% of the original still. Most of it needs repointing, but that's no big deal.
- Frame, more like 50-65% or so.
- Water heater failed catastrophically winter 2012-2013 and was replaced on warranty. It'll be going on craigslist as soon as the furnace is installed because the furnace has a potable water heater built in.
Dining room floor is a total loss. I could probably rehab it but it's badly buckled from moisture damage from the PO's hamfuckery and I'd rather just put a new one in.
Basement slop sink, kitchen sink, front door, and living room floor are still staying. The kitchen front door might still stay, or might get replaced.

The original chimney bricks will become a fireplace, hearth, or outside fireplace eventually.

Everything else got burned (I burn all wood debris that isn't caked in lead paint or arsenic treated) or dumpstered.

kastein fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Nov 10, 2015

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

kastein posted:

dreesemonkey, I have, but I'm not sure I like how it ends up looking if you put the foam over the window mounting flanges, and I don't like how insecure the window ends up if you put it under them.

That's how my office is built (well, pole construction as you know but with rigid foam outside). Don't worry about it. Just throw the windows in with the flanges outside of the foam. Once you spray foam them in they're going nowhere. I also threw a few nails in each of the window tracks.

Obviously you'll need to box inside if you do this because the window won't be deep enough to make it to your finished wall, but it's way better looking than having weird "innie" windows when looking at them from the outside.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Yeah, that was my concern, mostly, the wonky look. Interesting point about the expanding foam to hold the windows still.

This also kinda annoys my autistic rear end because I got the windows with a 6 9/16" jamb extension, which when combined with 7/16" ZIPsystem, 2x6 studs, and 5/8" drywall fits exactly - until you guys suggest doing the sane thing and prioritizing R value over mechanical perfection. Dammit!

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

kastein posted:

Yeah, that was my concern, mostly, the wonky look. Interesting point about the expanding foam to hold the windows still.

I've heard that several country's codes in Euryup allow foam as the only structural attachment for windows. Sounded weird to me. After using it I can now understand why.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011


Ken Stein waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There was shorts in the house. He didn’t see all of it, but had expected it now for years. His warnings to SSS were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Ken was a electrician for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the company vans and he said to dad “I want to be on the vans daddy.”
Dad said “No! You will BE KILL BY LECTRIC”
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the cold northern base of the PAN he knew there were shorts.
“This is Adiabatic” the radio crackered. “You must fixed the shorts!”
So Ken gotted his multi meter and poked holes up the wall.
“HE GOING TO FIX US” said the shorts
“I will zap at him” said the knob and tube and he crackled the old wires. Ken measuremented at him and tried to fix him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to fix.
“No! I must fix the faults” he shouted
The radio said “No, Ken. You are the faults”
And then Ken was a spark

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist



Geirskogul posted:

Ken Stein waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There was shorts in the house. He didn’t see all of it, but had expected it now for years. His warnings to SSS were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Ken was a electrician for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the company vans and he said to dad “I want to be on the vans daddy.”
Dad said “No! You will BE KILL BY LECTRIC”
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the cold northern base of the PAN he knew there were shorts.
“This is Adiabatic” the radio crackered. “You must fixed the shorts!”
So Ken gotted his multi meter and poked holes up the wall.
“HE GOING TO FIX US” said the shorts
“I will zap at him” said the knob and tube and he crackled the old wires. Ken measuremented at him and tried to fix him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to fix.
“No! I must fix the faults” he shouted
The radio said “No, Ken. You are the faults”
And then Ken was a spark

:master:

Jeherrin
Jun 7, 2012


Geirskogul posted:

Ken Stein waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There was shorts in the house. He didn’t see all of it, but had expected it now for years. His warnings to SSS were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Ken was a electrician for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the company vans and he said to dad “I want to be on the vans daddy.”
Dad said “No! You will BE KILL BY LECTRIC”
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the cold northern base of the PAN he knew there were shorts.
“This is Adiabatic” the radio crackered. “You must fixed the shorts!”
So Ken gotted his multi meter and poked holes up the wall.
“HE GOING TO FIX US” said the shorts
“I will zap at him” said the knob and tube and he crackled the old wires. Ken measuremented at him and tried to fix him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to fix.
“No! I must fix the faults” he shouted
The radio said “No, Ken. You are the faults”
And then Ken was a spark

:perfect:

sneakyfrog
Mar 16, 2011





Fan of Britches

Geirskogul posted:

Ken Stein waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There was shorts in the house. He didn’t see all of it, but had expected it now for years. His warnings to SSS were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Ken was a electrician for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the company vans and he said to dad “I want to be on the vans daddy.”
Dad said “No! You will BE KILL BY LECTRIC”
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the cold northern base of the PAN he knew there were shorts.
“This is Adiabatic” the radio crackered. “You must fixed the shorts!”
So Ken gotted his multi meter and poked holes up the wall.
“HE GOING TO FIX US” said the shorts
“I will zap at him” said the knob and tube and he crackled the old wires. Ken measuremented at him and tried to fix him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to fix.
“No! I must fix the faults” he shouted
The radio said “No, Ken. You are the faults”
And then Ken was a spark

:golfclap:

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


my first act upon taking possession was to check the main panel and disconnect every circuit except for a single outlet wired right next to the panel for that very reason. I kept the main breaker turned off except when I was there until things dried out significantly, because the entire panel was soaking wet.

also check this poo poo out, I have a wall again:


Going to frame the rest tonight hopefully, it was miserable and pouring last night so all I did was the sheathing. Gonna wait for it to dry out before I tape the seams.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

Oh, nice you're using Zip. That stuff is awesome.

If you use the actual Zip tape you'll not only make it through the winter just fine without siding, but it will still be under warranty (you have like 6 months to cover it and still have the full warranty).

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Yeah, I have used 3/4 CDX or PT plywood everywhere else to match the thickness of the boards I didn't replace, but since this wall is 100% new and it made the window jamb thickness match the wall thickness perfectly I went with zip. Probably putting tyvek up anyways but have not decided yet.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

kastein posted:

Probably putting tyvek up anyways but have not decided yet.

Yo dawg, I heard you like vapor barriers.

(seriously, there is no need - the whole point of Zip is not having to do that poo poo)

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


kastein posted:

Please don't make me calculate thermal conductivities and poo poo like that to figure out which is better :psyboom: I'm curious now but not motivated enough to do so.

(it's the same equations as calculating the equivalent resistance/conductivity of a network of resistors)

Also, I really don't want to think about how bouncy the walls must be if you only have every other stud contacting them. If anything I'd go with two 2x4 walls back to back with a couple inches of airgap in between for high R value.

A staggered stud wall would typically have studs 12" OC, so the walls are supported 24" OC.

Including siding, fiberglass batts, clear wall 2x6 16" OC is about R-17.5, and 2x6 24"OC is about R-19. 8" wide staggered stud wall would be around R-25.

Motronic posted:

Yo dawg, I heard you like vapor barriers.

(seriously, there is no need - the whole point of Zip is not having to do that poo poo)

After all the rotted sills, I can understand why kastein might want to double up on water resistant barriers...

Putting the siding up with a vented rain screen would be more productive than Tyvek, though.


edit: oh yeah, the nice thing about innie windows is that they're sheltered from wind a bit, so they'll stay a bit warmer, which can cut down on condensation inside.

Zhentar fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 11, 2015

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Is there any potential problem with two vapor barriers stacked? Like mold from them forming an envelope?

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader

Zhentar posted:

A staggered stud wall would typically have studs 12" OC, so the walls are supported 24" OC.

Including siding, fiberglass batts, clear wall 2x6 16" OC is about R-17.5, and 2x6 24"OC is about R-19. 8" wide staggered stud wall would be around R-25.

There's another huge benefit to staggered stud walls, though it's probably not as applicable here, but that's sound transmission. If the inner wall covering is attached to studs that the outer wall covering is not, then you have created an airgap inside the wall which will drastically reduce sound transmission through the wall. It's something I curse everyday not having in an open-plan, 70s-era, single-2x4-wall-construction-with-internal-walls-not-insulated house. Oh hey someone's using the toilet! Oh hey someone's listening to a piece of music every lyric of which I can hear from across the house! Sweet I was wondering what everyone else in the house was doing but now I don't have to.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

Splizwarf posted:

Is there any potential problem with two vapor barriers stacked? Like mold from them forming an envelope?

Yes. And it totally depends on the permeability of the vapor barriers. (hope you got the right engineer that knows their poo poo to figure that out.....oh....wait.....it's Kastein....never mind, we have the right engineer),

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


Potato Alley posted:

There's another huge benefit to staggered stud walls, though it's probably not as applicable here, but that's sound transmission. If the inner wall covering is attached to studs that the outer wall covering is not, then you have created an airgap inside the wall which will drastically reduce sound transmission through the wall. It's something I curse everyday not having in an open-plan, 70s-era, single-2x4-wall-construction-with-internal-walls-not-insulated house. Oh hey someone's using the toilet! Oh hey someone's listening to a piece of music every lyric of which I can hear from across the house! Sweet I was wondering what everyone else in the house was doing but now I don't have to.

In typical residential construction, there's not much point to doing more than filling the cavities with insulation, and then putting double drywall or resilient channels on one side. By that point, other construction details dominate the noise transmission (such as flanking paths through floor/ceiling cavities, air gaps from outlets, doors, HVAC ducts). In fact, unless your walls only used 3/8" drywall, it's probably already those other construction details behind your noise woes.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Zhentar posted:

A staggered stud wall would typically have studs 12" OC, so the walls are supported 24" OC.

Including siding, fiberglass batts, clear wall 2x6 16" OC is about R-17.5, and 2x6 24"OC is about R-19. 8" wide staggered stud wall would be around R-25.


After all the rotted sills, I can understand why kastein might want to double up on water resistant barriers...

Putting the siding up with a vented rain screen would be more productive than Tyvek, though.


edit: oh yeah, the nice thing about innie windows is that they're sheltered from wind a bit, so they'll stay a bit warmer, which can cut down on condensation inside.

Well, technically speaking these wouldn't be vapor barriers - tyvek housewrap is specifically designed to be permeable, since you want the vapor barrier on the warm side (in my climate, the inside face of a wall) there'd be no reason to use housewrap up here, ever, if it was a vapor barrier. It's a WRB (water resistant barrier) which blocks liquids but allows water vapor through.

So there should be no real issue adding a layer of Tyvek, IMO. A layer of say, 6 mil polyethylene vapor barrier? That'd turn the place into mold / mildew / humidity hell.

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

How much would I have to pay you to move to Philadelphia and just loving attack a 90 year old stone house?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

I'm gonna guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 Jeeps and a clapped out bridgeport to get a proper consultation.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I have no idea. It would really depend on how big it is, how well it was built, how badly run down it is, what you want done, and how long I think it'll take. Also, I'm not really the person for the job, you want fellow goon Fart Pipe's uncle for a project like this if you want it to get done for a good price in any reasonable amount of time. He mostly does fine interior carpentry, but can excel at just about any home renovation project he puts his hand to.

The weather has been absolutely disgusting for the last few days so nothing has been done. It's nice today though, so a wall shall take shape when I get home from work.

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

I'm only kidding. The place is in loving fantastic shape compared to what you're dealing with, but has a bunch of cosmetic or "structurally offensive but not dangerous" issues. I'm just a loving catastrophe when it comes to construction and such, though. I can stick a tube in someone's chest without breaking a sweat, but God help you if you hand me a saw. Plus I have pretty much no desire to spend my free time on home repair and the like. What I really need is a home renovation savant who lacks the skills to run a business to whom I can just give a living stipend and a credit card for purchases. =)

immoral_
Oct 20, 2007

So fresh and so clean.



Young Orc

I might not be a savant, but if it were anywhere other than Philadelphia and the middle of winter, I would seriously think about taking you up on that offer.

Also if my mother weren't about to purchase a house that she's going to have a laundry list of things for me to do to it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Made some decent progress this weekend.

The master bedroom window king studs and header+sill are in, along with half of the stud wall:


Now it's all done except for the jack and cripple studs above the window header:


All done except for two more pieces of sheathing, which some idiot neglected to buy enough of:


I think if I cut out the sheathing over the first floor window opening I'll have enough to finish the job, but haven't bought that window yet, so I don't want to. The cutoffs I have left already might cover it too, need to measure tonight.

The new window RO looks comically large. I'm sure the window itself will also look comically large, but fortunately it'll be less comically large...

Dagen H
Mar 19, 2009

Hogertrafikomlaggningen


kastein posted:

I think if I cut out the sheathing over the first floor window opening I'll have enough to finish the job, but haven't bought that window yet, so I don't want to.

Cut a rectangle out of the center that's just big enough for the 2 triangles you need (assuming you don't have any offcuts that'll work).

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


That's exactly what I am thinking of doing, but I don't want to yet like I said because I'm not sure when I'll be buying the window, and I don't feel like shoveling snow out of the living room this winter :v:

Dagen H
Mar 19, 2009

Hogertrafikomlaggningen


Ah. I figured you meant that you didn't want to cut the opening too big for a window that hadn't been specced yet. Carry on.

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Pigsfeet on Rye
Oct 22, 2008

I'm meat on the hoof




Kastein, you've got a really interesting thread. How do you keep track of your plans for the house? Any software package, or are you just going through section by section?

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