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n0tqu1tesane
May 7, 2003

She was rubbing her ass all over my hands. They don't just do that for everyone.

Grimey Drawer

apatite posted:

My brother recently bought an old rear end house that has a toilet and sink under the stairway to the second floor. Code probably won't let you get away with cool space saving early 1900s tricks like that anymore :bahgawd:

The house I grew up in, which was built in 1909, had a half bath under the stairs like that.

It wasn't originally designed that way though, it was a closet until 1989, when my parents bought the house and renovated. Of course, since the house had 11 foot ceilings, the ceiling of the bathroom was only slightly sloped at the back, and wasn't cramped at all.

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dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

My friend has an under stairs bath like that and it's glorious for drunken peeing because you can lean your head against the ceiling as you pee. Bliss.

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester




apatite posted:

My brother recently bought an old rear end house that has a toilet and sink under the stairway to the second floor. Code probably won't let you get away with cool space saving early 1900s tricks like that anymore :bahgawd:

That's really common here, even in newer construction. I'm not quite sure how they handle the vent stack in that case, but I see it done a lot.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

dreesemonkey posted:

My friend has an under stairs bath like that and it's glorious for drunken peeing because you can lean your head against the ceiling as you pee. Bliss.

Downside is literally knocking yourself out by standing up too quick from dropping a deuce, we had a bathroom like that too.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009





Grimey Drawer

Splizwarf posted:

Downside is literally knocking yourself out by standing up too quick from dropping a deuce, we had a bathroom like that too.

That's why you put insulation under the stairs.

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001

If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!


Splizwarf posted:

Downside is literally knocking yourself out by standing up too quick from dropping a deuce, we had a bathroom like that too.
Sounds like a vasovagal reaction to me. Consult a doctor.

Jonny Nox
Apr 25, 2008






Motronic posted:

That's why you put insulation under the stairs.

Truly only a man with his head in the future would do such a thing

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011


Did you say you were in the market for a...cement mixer?

Jordanis
Jul 11, 2006



Geirskogul posted:

Did you say you were in the market for a...cement mixer?



What.

Why.

Is there something I'm missing here? Is there a famous brand of small cement mixers by the name 'Princess'? What even is going on?

Pucklynn
Sep 8, 2010

chop chop chop


Disney Princesses As __________ has been going around for a while now.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


So over the last few weeks not much has gotten done, but I am slowly making progress on the master bedroom wall and closet framing. Also today I hauled probably a ton of soaking wet demobags full of plaster debris up the hill to fill the latest bagster. All out of energy now, so no more tonight, but will probably fill the other third of the bagster on evenings this week.

Once I have the rest of the walls framed in, I can start planning electrical for that room, insulate it, and rock it all.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Two more bagsters full of demolition debris gone. One, maybe two more to be filled before I'm entirely done with demolition.

Two thousand feet of oxygen barrier 1/2" PEX arrive today, too. Took the day off to babysit the bagster pickup, accept my PEX shipment, and if my back cooperates, build the new master bedroom wall.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


UPS is a bunch of miserable fuckholes and didn't bring me my PEX today as scheduled, but... the master bedroom wall is framed in! Holy poo poo even a picture for the first time in a dogs age.



The next few steps are rather entangled and I am going to have to think my way through them very carefully before starting because otherwise I will trap building materials in the wrong spot, or out of the right spot, or both.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


PEX is here, vent ducting installed all the way to the peak of the roof in the master bedroom. Plan for getting drywall over the rafter ties is done, drywall's bought, more studs bought, need to start doing electrical and rafter ties tonight.

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007

by Fluffdaddy


kastein posted:

UPS is a bunch of miserable fuckholes and didn't bring me my PEX today as scheduled, but... the master bedroom wall is framed in! Holy poo poo even a picture for the first time in a dogs age.



The next few steps are rather entangled and I am going to have to think my way through them very carefully before starting because otherwise I will trap building materials in the wrong spot, or out of the right spot, or both.

Did you not cut the door opening in the sole plate of the wall? Are you cutting that later or what?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I didn't bother. Can cut it later since I have a multimax, and since I still haven't laid down the 3/4" worth of PEX radiant heat paneling and the 5/8-3/4" worth of floorboards, it may end up flush anyways with the door jamb nailed directly to it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Spent some time talking to people who I trust on stuff like this and discussing various radiant floor heating designs.

Red is hot supply. Blue is cold return, and also room outline because I was a dumbass and drew it that way and didn't feel like changing it. The green dot is either the spot where supply magically becomes return (left and center) or the spot where the PEX drops through a hole in the subflooring and returns under the floor to the furnace (right.) White squares/rectangles are routed 90 degree and 180 degree turns in strips of plywood. I can buy them for $150 per 48 90-degree turns or make 72 out of a $30 sheet of 3/4 plywood, which will take time. $3.13 per 90deg vs 42 cents per 90deg... is a strong argument in favor of making them, though I may buy one room worth (conveniently, one package worth, plus a few spares) in the interest of getting the master bedroom done ASAP.
Left: my original idea. Uses 46 90-degree routed panel turns. Basically just a double spiral, return and supply spiral in/out and meet in the middle. Equalizes floor temps assuming no thermal draws in or out of the floor.
Middle: improved original idea by making an extra hot loop around the exterior walls since they'll have higher thermal draw in the winter when the heat will be used. Uses 48 90s (2 more.)
Right: fellow goon Noeland's suggestion - which appears to be what many pros use, after I spent more time looking into it, and makes logical sense to me. Uses 44 90s (2 less than original idea) and also involves a lot less routed panel cutting since half of them are in long straight strips. Further, involves a lot less Z-cut ends on the straight plywood strips placed between parallel tube runs. Cheapest, easiest to build, fastest to build, probably the best performance when placed under a wood floor. I will probably go this route unless someone makes a very strong argument not to. Thanks dude!

(click for big)

Yes, I used my PCB CAD software to design my radiant floor install. :dealwithit:

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

An HVAC guy told me the tile in our kitchen is cracking in part due to too high of temperatures through the PEX because of lack of a mixing valve on the hot end. (It also causes the PEX to get stiff over time.) So there's that. You said wood floor -- I swear I could remember reading that you should use quarter-sawn wood with radiant heat, but I could be confabulating here.

TacoHavoc
Dec 31, 2007
It's taco-y and havoc-y...at the same time!

tetrapyloctomy posted:

An HVAC guy told me the tile in our kitchen is cracking in part due to too high of temperatures through the PEX because of lack of a mixing valve on the hot end. (It also causes the PEX to get stiff over time.) So there's that. You said wood floor -- I swear I could remember reading that you should use quarter-sawn wood with radiant heat, but I could be confabulating here.

You have to mix down for radiant, absolutely. Typically a primary/secondary layout off the boiler is used, with a mixer of some sort to the secondary and zone manifolds off that. Uponor/wirsbo recommend no more than 145f for wood floors. Based on your redone construction and insulation I can't see you needing water this hot to maintain setpoint, but I haven't done the math. You are correct about quarter-sawn wood being considered generally better over radiant tubing. This is a rule of thumb thing though, I don't know the science behind it.

Kastein, I agree with the far right layout, both for cost of parts, ease of routing, and correct heat dispersion in the room.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Thanks. This is getting into the part of construction that I really don't understand, so by all means if you guys see something I'm doing wrong, let me know so I can correct it before I gently caress up too bad.

tetrapyloctomy posted:

An HVAC guy told me the tile in our kitchen is cracking in part due to too high of temperatures through the PEX because of lack of a mixing valve on the hot end. (It also causes the PEX to get stiff over time.) So there's that. You said wood floor -- I swear I could remember reading that you should use quarter-sawn wood with radiant heat, but I could be confabulating here.

If the tiles themselves are cracking that sounds more like temperature deltas being too high causing uneven thermal expansion. If the grout is cracking I'd assume too hot overall.

The only room that's likely to be tile is the bathroom, which is like 8x8 and only about 5x8 will actually be tiled... minus the space the vanity takes up. Kitchen will probably be wood or some sort of laminate.

I've been looking at the 5/8" thick woven bamboo click-together floating flooring as my most likely option for flooring everywhere else, but that's certainly not set in stone yet seeing as I have bought exactly $0 worth of flooring so far.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

My only opinion on flooring is to not get floating tongue-and-groove engineered hardwood. You have to glue each individual piece to the others and it's a pain in the rear end (and takes forever).

Magnus Praeda
Jul 18, 2003
The largess in the land.

kastein posted:

The only room that's likely to be tile is the bathroom, which is like 8x8 and only about 5x8 will actually be tiled... minus the space the vanity takes up.

You should seriously consider laying tile under the vanity anyway. It doesn't cost much more for the extra few tiles, it's easier to just spread thinset across the whole open area vs. cordoning off the little space that will be under the vanity, and It'll save you or a future owner a ton of headache later if you decide to change to either a pedestal or a vanity with a smaller footprint.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007







kastein posted:

I've been looking at the 5/8" thick woven bamboo click-together floating flooring as my most likely option for flooring everywhere else, but that's certainly not set in stone yet seeing as I have bought exactly $0 worth of flooring so far.

I am not in any way an expert but a while ago I stumbled across this, which makes a pretty convincing argument that bamboo flooring is kind of a scam. The hardness ratings are based on a test that doesn't account for the way that bamboo fibers work, the fair trade certifications are completely unregulated and therefore probably mostly lies, etc. etc. etc.

Again I do not know how credible this website is, but I submit it for your own judgement.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Leperflesh posted:

Again I do not know how credible this website is, but I submit it for your own judgement.

Looking at it, I honestly feel like it's meant to be negative advertising, if for no other reason than that all of the comments appear to have proper grammar (or very nearly proper; there are a few typos but no "post with all lowercase letters" kinds of things).

But yeah, never installed bamboo floors myself. The only bad thing I'd heard about them is that they splinter easily when you cut them.

blindjoe
Jan 10, 2001


One thing you might want to think about it to run a single loop around the wall on a different water circuit.
My brother-in-law installed radiant heating into a slab, and then installed thermostats in the air to control it.
At -30, we had to keep setting the thermostat warmer than we wanted it so water would keep moving in the loop and there would be no freezing.
If there was a seperate loop around the house as a "anti-freeze loop" on a thermostat based on the water, not the air, then I could have slept in a cool room instead of a horrible hot one.
Now, this could have been only a concern as he didn't put the antifreeze in at the time as it was a super rush job for people coming over and I don't know if thats normal, but it made sense to me at the time.
Seems like you had that in the middle design, but maybe it was only one valve?

Other thing he learned, was not to run the heating everywhere under kitchen cabinets, as then you waste heat, and spoil all your food in the cabinets.

I installed bamboo in my house, and there are many different grades of it. I installed commercial grade brindle in my house, and it has held up amazingly to 2 big dogs and a toddler.
http://www.teragren.com/products_flooring_synergy.html

I installed home depot bamboo in one room, and its soft as poo poo. Its going to look like garbage after 5 years, and Ill end up tearing it out. I should have done my usual test of try to dent the flooring with a ring. If you can, it will look bad.

The other thing was you had to use smaller nails, and had to buy a special nail gun for it, or it would splinter, couldn't use the normal 16 gauge staples.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


TMA - good point. Just looking at the engineered hardwood (the stuff with the MDF layer under like 1/32" of actual hardwood, right?) something didn't seem right about it and I'd already decided to go with actual 3/4 solid hardwood or 3/4 woven bamboo (which is also solid) so I'm glad to have an actual reason for that decision now other than gut feeling.

Magnus Praeda - I've already placed the vanity but I've been debating pulling it back up to do the tiling under it for exactly that reason. IIRC I bought enough tiles, but it seemed like most people didn't tile under the vanity so I figured that was just how people did it.

blindjoe - Fortunately this is in an insulated area (well, the whole house will be insulated, now that I've torn every wall down) and above a soon-to-be-heated living room, so I don't THINK I'll have any serious issues with freezing lines around the walls.



As for the hardness concerns - will definitely ring test. It felt hard enough to survive when I tried to dent it with a thumbnail, but that's not much of a test. Also, whatever I use, it'll be the floating flooring not the stuff you nail down. If two big dogs and a toddler can't kill the commercial grade stuff, it will probably survive whatever I can throw at it.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


That site is accurate, ordinary bamboo is regularly advertised as extremely durable thanks to janka hardness tests when it is in fact not remotely so, easily damaged by sharp pointy things like pebbles in shoes.

Strand woven bamboo is not ordinary bamboo. It's an engineered product, basically OSB made out of bamboo (with long strands instead of chips so that it looks pretty). The density of the bamboo fibers is much higher, and they're held to each other with adhesive. It's a vastly superior material for flooring than ordinary bamboo; much more durable, and much better dimensional stability. You do get the downside of engineered products: it's only as good as the quality of engineering that went into it. If they used a lovely glue that starts breaking down in 5 years, poo poo's gonna fall apart.

This site calls out some problems/installation concerns you can run into with strand woven bamboo.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

My grandma's house has radiant heat for the entire ground floor, and for whatever reason, each of the laminate tiles in the kitchen that get regularly wet (ie in front of the sink, dishwasher, and the drawer-freezer style fridge) appear to have shrunk and become "crispy", which is probably curling edges. The rest of the downstairs, all the same laminate except for the ceramic tiled bathroom, has no problems. The entryway gets occasional wet foot traffic but that's apparently not enough water to do any damage.

tldr: anecdotally I don't think laminate is a good idea on top of radiant in regularly-wet areas

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

I just put a laser level on my kitchen floor, and my eyes will never be able to unsee the horrors it revealed. Yeah, it's a ninety year old house, but I'm pretty sure it was less ridiculous before they put the posts in the basement. Jesus.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I'm definitely not doing laminate, for some reason it just didn't seem like a quality product, I'd liken it to using copper clad aluminum wiring.

My GF has nicknamed the house "the slanty shanty" due to it being so, uh, slanty, and right now, rather shantylike :v: The worst was when I discovered that a 5' tall exterior wall in the second floor was 1.5" from vertical... over 4'. Yeah, it's so far out of true that if it was a "horizontal" DWV, it'd have 50% more slope than required to meet code.

Attempting to level/square the place is a Sisyphean task, so I don't bother. Newly built walls and floors are made square and level within limits, if they need to meet a corner and not have a wonky triangular sliver, I'll make them slanty at each end to match the wall they're joining and blend it in between. All new openings and free standing walls / walls that are perpendicular to all existing walls are built as true/square as I can, however.

For example the new master bedroom floor I spent so long working on... is 2" higher at one side than the other. Why? Because the old floor it had to join seamlessly with is that slanty. So I leveled it in the other dimension (since it doesn't have to meet anything except a wall I rebuilt at the other end) but left it slanty in the dimension where it had to meet the existing floor.

You win some, you lose some.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



You definitely lose any small change or marbles you happened to drop in there :haw:

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo




Fallen Rib

Cakefool posted:

You definitely lose any small change or marbles you happened to drop in there :haw:

But gain the ease of installing a floor drain!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Doing some priceshopping on radiant materials. Specifically, heat transfer plates and routed turn panels.

Cost to make 36x 180 degree 8" OC bends myself, not including tooling: 65 bucks and maybe an hour.
Cost to buy 24x 180 degree 8" OC bends from blueridge company: 150 bucks
Cost to buy 24x 180 degree 8" OC bends from radiant engineering: 165 bucks

Since I am going to end up needing about 150 for this house, I stand to save ~600 (even after counting the cost of tooling as if they are consumable) by DIYing it. Glad I already ordered the router bits and poo poo :v:

On the other hand, the heat transfer plates from radiant engineering look like a top notch product, they just sent me some samples. Very well made extrusions, and 3x thicker than the cheap poo poo brake-bent ones I was looking at on amazon before. 50 thou vs 16. They're 2.8x as expensive per foot, but actually about 11% cheaper per pound of aluminum used. I think I'll blow the money saved by DIYing routed turn panels on the best heat transfer plates I can buy... and more, because thermofin U is like 500 bucks a room give or take. Ouch.

Christ, this part of the build might be the most expensive yet. Estimate:
$2k furnace
$700 in PEX bought so far
$400 worth of routed panels, give or take
An assload of 3/4 cdx to rip into sleepers, assume 500
$500 per room ($3k) abovefloor heat transfer plates
$900 belowfloor heat transfer plates for the living room
... and I still need to buy manifolds, zone valves, thermostats, and zone pumps. Assuming around a grand for that due to 4 zones.

$9400 or so all told. And I thought I could do it cheap.

Ow my rear end. These floors better be warm.

E: also just blew 400 bucks on flooring for the master bedroom. It passed the keyring and thumbnail tests. It does, however, require adhesive that will cost about 340 bucks per room, or adhesive roll that will cost about 400 per room. I think houses might be worse than boats, but at least there's no mortgage...

kastein fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 8, 2016

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


Here, $750 boiler with built in buffer tank (using it for heating probably voids the warranty, though).

Have you done the math to see if you even need the above floor heat plates? I'm sure you do want them below floor, but with the insulating you've done, I wouldn't be surprised if they're unnecessary above floor (particularly for second floor rooms).

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Is that going to be your only/main source if heat? Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm from The South where we heat with forced air.

Anyhow, if that's 10k all in on heating the whole place efficiently, I'd say it's not that bad. I know it hurts but "done right" is worth it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


E: yes, only source of heat. I got a 20% modulating 140kbtu furnace instead.

I already bought the furnace, and wanted a modulating, high efficiency one, so heehawing it with a water heater wasn't really a good option.

Abovefloor means significantly improved routing options - the routing I chose is completely impossible if done in joist bays.

Zhentar
Sep 28, 2003

Brilliant Master Genius


kastein posted:

I already bought the furnace, and wanted a modulating, high efficiency one, so heehawing it with a water heater wasn't really a good option.

There are water heaters that can do that, too. They cost as much as a modulating boiler though, so you miss out on both the savings and the fun of heehawing.

kastein posted:

Abovefloor means significantly improved routing options - the routing I chose is completely impossible if done in joist bays.

Sorry, I worded that poorly; wasn't trying to suggest you switch to below floor. I was trying to say, have you done the math to see if you need the capacity of the higher quality thermofin plates? It very likely makes sense to get them for the below floor room, but the lovely brake bent plates may well be adequate for the above floor installs and would save you quite a bit if they are.

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007

by Fluffdaddy


kastein posted:

I'm definitely not doing laminate, for some reason it just didn't seem like a quality product, I'd liken it to using copper clad aluminum wiring.

My GF has nicknamed the house "the slanty shanty" due to it being so, uh, slanty, and right now, rather shantylike :v: The worst was when I discovered that a 5' tall exterior wall in the second floor was 1.5" from vertical... over 4'. Yeah, it's so far out of true that if it was a "horizontal" DWV, it'd have 50% more slope than required to meet code.

Attempting to level/square the place is a Sisyphean task, so I don't bother. Newly built walls and floors are made square and level within limits, if they need to meet a corner and not have a wonky triangular sliver, I'll make them slanty at each end to match the wall they're joining and blend it in between. All new openings and free standing walls / walls that are perpendicular to all existing walls are built as true/square as I can, however.

For example the new master bforoom floor I spent so long working on... is 2" higher at one side than the other. Why? Because the old floor it had to join seamlessly with is that slanty. So I leveled it in the other dimension (since it doesn't have to meet anything except a wall I rebuilt at the other end) but left it slanty in the dimension where it had to meet the existing floor.

You win some, you lose some.

Have you taken into account the slope of your floors for optimum water circulation patterns? :colbert:

Not Wolverine fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Feb 9, 2016

Beach Bum
Jan 13, 2010


Crotch Fruit posted:

Have you taken into account the slope of your floors for for optimum water circulation patterns? :colbert:

The evil little man in my head is hoping this makes him twitch :sun:

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angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Crotch Fruit posted:

Have you taken into account the slope of your floors for optimum water circulation patterns? :colbert:

You're horrible haha

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