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SouthShoreSamurai
Apr 28, 2009

It is a tale,
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.




Fun Shoe

What did you use for the cutouts? Roto-zip tool?

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kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I use a Dremel mm45 sometimes and a regular jigsaw other times. I used a jigsaw there. That box for the smoke alarm I hosed up bad, it's got way more clearance than is allowed to the drywall so I'll have to mud it carefully. I didn't have a spare box to use as a template when tracing it onto the drywall.

I've gotten some more stuff done since my last post but nothing really worth posting by itself. Hopefully more tomorrow.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Been a while since I updated. I need to stay more on top of this.
Did the sheetrock in the basement stairwell


Kitchen HVAC register and duct


Last section of trunk duct in the basement (pay no attention to the completed connections at the end, took pictures out of order)


Last section of trunk duct needed to be shortened and get two holes for takeoffs with dampers in them


That piece goes here


And now it's in and mostly connected except that one tiny duct section missing


Put that piece in, screwed and taped it all


Sure hope I cut this hole the right size


I did


Today I tore the lovely old basement stairs down


And then put the new stringers up for the new not-lovely basement stairs


Hope to have the basement stair treads done tomorrow morning, it's too late to run the chopsaw without waking people up.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007








I'm not a ducting expert but I imagine it might be a good idea to wedge some foam or something in between the duct and the pipes where it contacts that conduit and that drainpipe, just due to the potential for vibration?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


That's a good suggestion and I agree. Here's why I'm not going to :v:

The gas pipe in the foreground actually doesn't contact it, it just looks like it does in the picture due to the form of the register end boot. I think it's actually like 6 inches away but I can't remember now.

The conduit is actually just the conduit for the ground cable from the main panel to the water main. I'm probably going to replace it soon since that bend is janky as gently caress and a few of the hold-down clips on the brick wall are nearly rusted through, so I'll just route it to avoid the duct when I do that. Hopefully I can massage the dent back out, I don't think it creased so it shouldn't be too hard to.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Basement stairs are done aside from railings.


Duct does clear that pipe by 6ish inches. It looks wrong from the other pic, though.


This isn't how I wanted to do the last duct takeoff on the basement trunk, but it works and improves headroom over my other options.


The extra elbows are just so it's over my head (and thus over 99.9% of the world's heads) instead of exactly where I'll smash my head on it and pop the elbow joints apart every time I try to walk under it.


Then straight shot to the living room HVAC register.


It was a nice day and not raining yesterday so I stuck the decorative cap shingles over the flashing with some roofing tar.



Today and most of yesterday I mostly spent cleaning up and moving tools and tool shelving units into the basement where they belong, and dragging lots of scrap wood and the remains of the basement stairs outside.

Budgie
Mar 9, 2007
Yeah, like the bird.



This is the money shot right here, who'd have imagined the dilapidated mess you bought, that you then, rightfully, absolutely fuckin gutted would turn into this.

Order from Chaos.

It's a shame you probably won't keep it when you're done.

immoral_
Oct 20, 2007

So fresh and so clean.



Young Orc


The only real problem with this setup is it should have been a square to round, because with it tapping off the back end of the duct it will introduce turbulence to the airflow which can be noisy and reduce the airflow into the pipe. Since this is residential though it probably doesn't have the cfm to be a real issue.

As a duct guy I gotta say that you've done some pretty good work, and if you ever want to do it as a job you'd be better off than a few journeyman I've worked with.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


immoral_ posted:

The only real problem with this setup is it should have been a square to round, because with it tapping off the back end of the duct it will introduce turbulence to the airflow which can be noisy and reduce the airflow into the pipe. Since this is residential though it probably doesn't have the cfm to be a real issue.

As a duct guy I gotta say that you've done some pretty good work, and if you ever want to do it as a job you'd be better off than a few journeyman I've worked with.

Yeah, I really wish I'd had the space to do it like this (about halfway through the post) but I was all out. So far it appears to be flowing enough to be just fine because it's been in the mid 80s to mid 90s and max humidity + sun for the last few days and it's possible to set the AC to an uncomfortably low temp and have it hit the target, and I actually haven't noticed any sound from it at all.

The next place, I'm designing to fit AC in the first place so I don't have to retrofit it like this, this was a pain in the rear end.

How much do HVAC installers typically make, specifically around the Gig Harbor WA area, if you know? I wouldn't mind doing this kind of stuff, though I'm probably way too slow right now, even if my work is high enough quality.

Granite Octopus
Jun 24, 2008



kastein posted:


Then straight shot to the living room HVAC register.



I’m disappointed you didn’t notch those joists to make room for the duct. How will you have enough headroom for the sunken basement tub???

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007







kastein posted:

How much do HVAC installers typically make, specifically around the Gig Harbor WA area, if you know? I wouldn't mind doing this kind of stuff, though I'm probably way too slow right now, even if my work is high enough quality.

There's union shops in the seattle area, and if you're young enough to apprentice in, you could be making union wages. Even apprentice wages are decent and once you hit journeyman, it's a solid career choice.

https://ualocal32.com/careers-trades
These guys could give you their wage scale, I would assume.

I don't know for the Seattle area, but in the SF bay area there's always work for HVAC specialists. But keep in mind a lot of the work is commercial/industrial.

immoral_
Oct 20, 2007

So fresh and so clean.



Young Orc

Last I looked, eastern WA was paying about 30/hr for journeymen, but that was like 5 years ago. Apprenticeships are running 5 years in most places I've heard about and it starts at 60% journeyman wage and increments up each year. Alternatively you might be able to just go test for whatever card WA requires, though I don't know if they require the full suite of Hvac or if you can just get a basic; nor do I know what kind of hours they require before allowing testing.

Commercial is, in my admittedly minor experience, a hell of a lot nicer than residential given that you usually aren't crawling around in crawlspace or attics. Might be a bit more infighting between the trades, depending on particulars though. Commercial has a nicer safety net and the jobs tend to run longer so you're not bouncing around sites as much.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Not too bad, I'll have to keep it in mind, especially if I can jump in higher up the licensing ladder with testing. Especially since we won't be in the city so cost of living shouldn't be stupid high.

So it's been a while and I haven't been super busy on the house, but have gotten some stuff done. I started planning how I'm going to fur out the kitchen ceiling, including the enclosure for the AC evaporator unit and ducting, and realized that if I'm going to do that, I really need to build the access hatch for it. I've been dreading this for several years now because it's a weird pancake shaped unit so it uses a weird long narrow filter set (two 10x24x1s, end to end... was very space limited, sometimes you gotta piss with the cock you got, would have preferred a lot more filter area, much thicker filter rack, and more standard sizes, but oh well) and if it ever has to come out for service or replacement, it has to do it the broad way. Yikes. So I measured and it looks like the hatch needs to be... uh... at least 44x60. Christ that's big.

I found similar sizes in a few places online but they were special order only and the prices were... *gulp*

Ended up spending about 180 bucks on metal stock and accessories (hinge, latches) and building it myself. It took way too much time and I ran out of MIG wire first, then shielding gas a few hours later, so it's been several trips out to the hangar to work on it. I don't particularly object since I usually end up working on my truck afterwards "while I'm out there", I just hope it looks alright once it's installed.

Stack of raw materials. This thing is going to be loving huge.


This is where I ran out of MIG wire.


Then where I ran out of shielding gas.


Whole hatch is done, frame is done except the inset jambs that the door is clamped against by the latches.


And now those are done too.


The latches just arrived in the mail yesterday, hoping to go install them tomorrow. I'm sure there will be a lot of cursing and deadblow hammering to get the warping and rippling out of the door panel now that I've stitch welded a bunch of bullshit to it, but I didn't really have a proper welding table to do this on, so I did the best I could.

It ended up 48x65 inches, 46.5x64.5 opening. And weighs a goddamn ton, even though I used 1/8 stock for everything and 16ga for the door panel.

Once I get it home, I can measure it more accurately and build the AC enclosure framing and ceiling furring to accomodate it perfectly, then I have to find a way to lift it into place and screw it down without breaking or bending it, that's going to be a party and a half I can tell already.

immoral_
Oct 20, 2007

So fresh and so clean.



Young Orc

Looking good, 16ga is no joke, we use that for grease duct when it doesn't spec stainless. It's always a pain wrestling them into position. And those are usually only 16-18" square.

Hope you've got some extra hands to help haul it.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


kastein posted:

I started planning how I'm going to fur out the kitchen ceiling, including the enclosure for the AC evaporator unit and ducting, and realized that if I'm going to do that, I really need to build the access hatch for it. I've been dreading this for several years now because it's a weird pancake shaped unit so it uses a weird long narrow filter set (two 10x24x1s, end to end... was very space limited, sometimes you gotta piss with the cock you got, would have preferred a lot more filter area, much thicker filter rack, and more standard sizes, but oh well) and if it ever has to come out for service or replacement, it has to do it the broad way. Yikes. So I measured and it looks like the hatch needs to be... uh... at least 44x60. Christ that's big.

It ended up 48x65 inches, 46.5x64.5 opening. And weighs a goddamn ton, even though I used 1/8 stock for everything and 16ga for the door panel.

Evap access hatch aka the widow maker. :stare:

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

That's a lot of metal. Does the hatch need to be metal or could it have been a sheet of plywood with some trim? I guess I don't have a good feel for how wet the area around the AC will be.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


It could have been, can you please suggest that to me a week or two ago? drat it.

It's going to have 8 quarter-turn latches holding it shut, and has a piano hinge securely welded along an entire side, so I'm not too worried about it killing anyone.

Beach Bum
Jan 13, 2010


How much does it actually weigh? That thing swingin' down looks like it could be heavy as hell, especially it being overhead. Might I suggest sprung hinges to take some of the weight off, or some other load-reduction mechanism? I would have suggested 1/4" or 3/8" plywood on a 1x1 frame, with secondary hatch in the panel itself for filter changes only, but the ship has sailed of course.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I've debated putting a pull rope and a pulley on it to help lift it into position. Honestly, I'm kinda thinking about scrapping it (or cutting it back apart and putting the materials in my stockpile) and using a wood hatch, or even a wooden frame with drywall on it, now that you guys have brought this up. I let my overbuild-everything tendencies get away from me on this one. The only thing I'm not sure about is how I would hinge such a door, since the hinge needs to be at the surface. Or if I'd put tabs on one end to slide into slots in the frame and then have latches only at the other end.

Edit: materials used on the actual door itself:
4x5.5ft 16ga (58lb)
27ft of 3/4x1/8 strap (9lb)
So slightly under 70lbs including welds I would say. One end supported by a hinge. I'm really rusty on my physics free body diagrams but I think that means no more than 35lb lifting force required at the far end to get it back to the ceiling?

kastein fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 5, 2020

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader

kastein posted:

I've debated putting a pull rope and a pulley on it to help lift it into position. Honestly, I'm kinda thinking about scrapping it (or cutting it back apart and putting the materials in my stockpile) and using a wood hatch, or even a wooden frame with drywall on it, now that you guys have brought this up. I let my overbuild-everything tendencies get away from me on this one. The only thing I'm not sure about is how I would hinge such a door, since the hinge needs to be at the surface. Or if I'd put tabs on one end to slide into slots in the frame and then have latches only at the other end.

Ken don't listen to these haters. The only answer here is to put hydraulic struts on it for opening and closing it automatically - just find the same ones they use on dumptrucks and you should be good.

Beach Bum
Jan 13, 2010


Super Soaker Party! posted:

Ken don't listen to these haters. The only answer here is to put hydraulic struts on it for opening and closing it automatically - just find the same ones they use on dumptrucks and you should be good.

Ooh yeah it'd be like the hood or rear hatch on a car !

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

I think the metal door is awesome, and you should only scrap it if you can't figure out a way to make it work.

That said, there's a ton of styles of hinge for all different kinds of mounting situations. Mostly they amount to custom-built bits of metal brackets around the actual hinge element of course.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


I am not saying not to use it. :black101:

rndmnmbr
Jul 3, 2012



You have not done it right unless the next poor schmuck who works on it cusses you for overdoing it.

Poisonlizard
Apr 1, 2007


rndmnmbr posted:

You have not done it right unless the next poor schmuck who works on it cusses you for overdoing it.

I'd say this, but it really doesn't matter. They next poor schmuck will cuss you for under doing it too. You are just going to be the PO no matter what. So, you do you.

Darchangel
Feb 12, 2009

Tell him about the blower!




Maybe temporarily mount it to a test stand at the approximate height and see if it's a pain in the rear end to manipulate before installing or re-doing? Like, clamp the hinge to your lift or something?

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007

by Fluffdaddy


I have never built such a hatch, but I think a frame of aluminum brackets with a sheet of hardboard would be ideal. I think 1/2" aluminum angle stock would be rigid enough for that size and it could be just bolted or riveted together, and also be rust proof in case there was a leak or condensation problem. Similarly if there was a big leak someday, hardboard would reveal the leak versus the 70lb steel panel of doom that will hide the leak. Plywood would be a good option too, except I think it would be heavier than a hardboard and aluminum hatch, and it would hide leaks longer than hardboard.

Stitecin
Feb 6, 2004
Mayor of Stitecinopolis

Crotch Fruit posted:

Similarly if there was a big leak someday, hardboard would reveal the leak versus the 70lb steel panel of doom that will hide the leak.

I have been lurking this thread for years. The work katstein has done is nothing less than inspirational. If the new owner neglects the maintenance on any part of that bomb shelter then (s)he deserves a 70lb guillotine driven down by the what... ~110lbs? of water that panel will hold. Surely there should be one trap to end the life of an unworthy new owner.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I only stitch welded the reinforcement straps, so it won't really hold water very well at all. Should start dripping out around the edges after maybe a cup or two.

The AC unit has a built in backup drip pan, though, plus the condensate pan and pump.

I'm really wishing I had brought this up before buying materials and spending time on it since a wood, aluminum, and drywall or hardboard access door would certainly have worked and been far cheaper and easier, but I think I'm going to put this one up and see how it feels. If it's awful or the ripples in the skin from welding it are too visible, it's coming back out and I'll find another way, probably 1x3 pine framing with quarter inch drywall on it, honestly, and drywall edging around the opening and edge of the door.

It's looking like I should be finishing the guillotine-hatch Wednesday or Thursday, and I hope to have most of the framing around where it gets installed done tomorrow, aside from the 4 pieces that it actually attaches to. Those will be put in at the last minute while measuring directly off the hatch itself so it fits right the first time.

immoral_
Oct 20, 2007

So fresh and so clean.



Young Orc

I mean, you could have just used 24/26 GA sheet and been fine, with a bit more chance of ripple from welding.

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

The A/C air handler is going into the ceiling of the kitchen? I have so many questions.

1) What's above the kitchen?
2) If the answer is "anything with a floor," what did you do to reinforce the floor itself?
3) There wasn't anywhere to run ductwork so you could put it in the basement or the attic?
4) Why not a concealed minisplit to make things easier on yourself hitting all the floors with cooled air?
5) Etc.

I think I'm just sort of having difficulty visualizing the space. All of the decisions you've made have been really well thought-out, so I know there are good reasons for why you're approaching the issue like this, but I just can't piece them together.

And just because I found it incidentally while looking up pancake units:

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


It's a really flat pancake shaped unit basically, like under a foot thick. I had to work around existing framing and had very little room for ducting, unfortunately. Whole evap unit only weighed like maybe 100-150lbs and it's directly next to a weight bearing wall, so no real reinforcement was needed.

I wanted to put it in the attic originally but when I measured for the unit, I had no loving clue what I was doing HVAC install wise and didn't take into account the fact that I needed to run ducts from both wide sides of the unit, and the space I wanted to put it in basically only had space for it without the ducts. So much head scratching followed. I could have put it in the basement but it would have meant losing a lot more livable space to the vertical ducting and would have significantly complicated duct routing since I needed to place returns at the tops of rooms in both levels and supply ducts in the floors of both levels. Putting it on the kitchen ceiling allowed me to run returns only one level up into the attic, supplies and returns on the first level ceiling facing up and down as necessary, and supplies down only one level into the basement. Even so, I had to choose my first floor return and second floor supply vent locations carefully to ensure that I could get ducts to them without crossing them or I'd run out of room, but without compromising performance by putting registers in badly chosen spots.

I really did not want to put it in the kitchen ceiling but luckily the first floor ceilings in this place were over 9 feet AFFL, so even with the unit mounted where it is, my finished ceiling will be drat near 8 feet.

kastein fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jul 7, 2020

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester




tetrapyloctomy posted:

And just because I found it incidentally while looking up pancake units:


Jesus Christ, THOSE fuckers. I still see a ton of them on the days I do courier or delivery work.

For reference, they're from the mid to late 70s. Those fuckers will make your electric meter spin so fast that it starts smoking, but they refuse to die, and if the coils inside and out are kept clean, they should keep your place like a meat locker.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I did some finish welding and grinding on the hatch today, aside from latches it's basically done. Also the last few days I furred out half the kitchen and hung the drywall, so we have half a kitchen ceiling now.

Furred out and leveled


Rocked


Hoping to get the other half furred out tomorrow, we'll see.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Other half is furred out and I actually got one sheet of drywall up before it was quiet hours. I've cut the next sheet to fit but haven't put it up yet.

Mofette
Jan 9, 2004

Hey you! It's the sound, in your head goes round and round




kastein posted:

Other half is furred out and I actually got one sheet of drywall up before it was quiet hours.

You're making the property this good AND you obey quiet time? God some people would PAY you to live next to them.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Mofette posted:

You're making the property this good AND you obey quiet time? God some people would PAY you to live next to them.

The neighbors can go to hell, quiet time is when my wife says she wants to actually go to sleep instead of listening to me running a drywall screw gun and a squeaky rear end drywall hoist :v:

wooger
Apr 16, 2005

YOU RESENT?

Ages ago, maybe here or in the House Owning thread someone linked to a forum with lots of homestead build logs on it. Can anyone remember the name?

Definitely gonna be surpassed by your eventual new build Kastein, of course.

Update: I think it was the homesteading forum on permies.com, nevermind.

It’s no Kastein thread.

wooger fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jul 15, 2020

EvilPsych
Jul 18, 2004
Ask me about my 'LiveJournal' :rollseyes:

I feel like all of us that have been following this thread from the beginning years ago should chip in and get you a trophy or something once you complete the house and sell it- something to the effect of ‘World’s Greatest Turd-Polisher’

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Doctor Londom
Feb 24, 2006
I'm gonna get to the bottom of this and I don't give a fuck if you're at the top.

wooger posted:

Ages ago, maybe here or in the House Owning thread someone linked to a forum with lots of homestead build logs on it. Can anyone remember the name?

Definitely gonna be surpassed by your eventual new build Kastein, of course.

I can't remember the name but it was the guy who also converted a Massey-Harris tractor to electric.

Edit: misread. I thought you were looking for a homestead build on here.

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