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kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Problem is, they are only 2x4 studs. I would need to notch at least 1" deep, preferably 1.5" deep, which is 37% of the thickness of the stud (true 2x4s) and probably upwards of 50% of its strength. I am simply not comfortable with doing that to a weight bearing wall.

I am really leaning towards #3 or #8, but I can't find where to buy T shaped metal stock. I would rather use T shaped than regular angle iron as the flat upper face of the T will support the joists equally on each side of the vertical web which should reduce torsion instead of the angle, which will twist under load and not carry as much at the outer edge of the upper face as it should.

Worst case I can weld or bolt sections of angle back to back with the main angle and get the same result. In fact that may be easier... the bolts will increase the notching depth or furring strip height I will need though. I am hoping to avoid notching any more and just use the existing ones.

E: and my next house will be one I build from scratch, gently caress ever renovating again. It has been fun and a great lesson in how not to build a house courtesy of the previous owners but I intend to build from a clean slate next time.

kastein fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Sep 22, 2013

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Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

kastein posted:

basically this is how the second floor joists of my balloon framed house are attached to the studs, not sure that is 100% clear.

THAT'S what I didn't get. I though this was the living room FLOOR. Obviously that makes thing a lot more complicated.

Don't do #7. I get it, but don't do that. There has to be a better way, even if that involves a load of LedgerLOKs and a couple of 2x6es or 2x8s. Treat it like a ledger, use appropriate brackets to support the currently unsupported stuff. Worst case you bump out the wall downstairs 3 inches (assuming that room hasn't been finished already) or box it out, which no one will notice other than you.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Yeah I had a feeling that was the disconnect. The living room floor is supported directly by the foundation because the last moron who fixed the rot issue (without fixing the underlying cause, the failed roof, which aslo caused the carpenter ant infestation...) did so by sistering the rotting sills with a 2x8 then nailing his new floor joists to that. So there is fortunately no concern there (that I am aware of... yet.)

I am really leaning towards the doubled up angle iron method. I just measured and the notches are over 1/2" deep. So I can double up 3" or 4" 1/4" web angle without cutting any more wood away and never really worry about it again. Actually even thicker but that is completely unnecessary.

kastein fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Sep 22, 2013

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.



Just remember to use the cheapest, preferably pre-used hardware you can find, bonus points for mismatched junkyard takings

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I'm probably going to just buy everything in the 1" 3/8-16 grade 8 bins at Tractor Supply Company. I love their bolts by the pound deals.

Oldsrocket_27
Apr 28, 2009


The carpenter in me says #7, because doing it right is always the right way to do it (terrible turn of phrase, I know). And also because I wouldn't be the one who has to do it. An easier method might be something like running a thicker board along the backside of the 1x6 under the floor joists (probably cutting a hole into the outside wall to do it, but oh well) and bolting that to the 1x6, then putting angle brackets like these: http://www.dhcsupplies.com/store/p/2652-A34-Framing-Clips.html#.UkJXc7x55eo on either side of each stud with tico nails running into the stud and and 8penny or 16penny running into the reinforced board. Also time consuming, but not as much as rebuilding a load-bearing wall bit by bit. If the outside wall boards were removed it could be done in one solid day by two dudes.

EDIT: OK, probably as time-consuming is you include the time spent removing the boards on the outside wall.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


The real problem is those boards are covered in asbestos siding on the outside. Which I don't want to gently caress with now if I can avoid it. I am going to have to pull a few courses off to do the sill plate, but that won't be for a while yet.

Since I am ripping the joists and living room plaster etc out anyways, I think I am going with the doubled up angle iron idea. I thought about it at work today and I am pretty sure that much angle iron (3x3 or 4x4 1/4 thick, back to back to form a T) will handle far more load than I can ever put on it without so much as flexing.

Ferremit
Sep 14, 2007
if I haven't posted about MY LANDCRUISER yet, check my bullbars for kangaroo prints

Going on the sparks flying off your chainsaw, you need to get some of this stuff http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/specialty-saw-chains/rdr/

I pulled down a tin and timber shed and it cost me a chain and a half from all the nails and dirt in the timber.


And you give Australia poo poo? At least the ANTS DONT EAT YOUR HOUSE over here. Termites will tho, But Not the god drat ants!



poo poo like that sucks when you step on it in the roof of a house. Especially when the place has 12' ceilings cos that landings gonna hurt!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


We have termites too. I prefer ants, really.

Fortunately I have zero termites... and as far as I know, just this one ant nest. Hopefully just this one ant nest.

daggerdragon
Jan 22, 2006

My titan engine can kick your titan engine's ass.

Ferremit posted:

Going on the sparks flying off your chainsaw, you need to get some of this stuff http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/specialty-saw-chains/rdr/

I pulled down a tin and timber shed and it cost me a chain and a half from all the nails and dirt in the timber.


And you give Australia poo poo? At least the ANTS DONT EAT YOUR HOUSE over here. Termites will tho, But Not the god drat ants!



poo poo like that sucks when you step on it in the roof of a house. Especially when the place has 12' ceilings cos that landings gonna hurt!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I am building my next house from scratch!

gently caress!

gently caress gently caress gently caress!

Warning, house snuff porn below.



This is a section I was REALLY HOPING WOULD NOT BE ROTTED. Or full of carpenter ants. It is both!

I am going to have to learn a few new tricks to fix this. The rot and ants extend from the foundation at least to ceiling height in the first floor. In a weight bearing wall. Well, formerly weight bearing, I don't know what's holding it up right now because it sure as poo poo isn't the frame.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKK

On a more positive note, it hasn't fallen over yet and the foundation wall needed work (water pours out of it when it rains) and the yard here needed drainage and regrading anyways, I was going to half rear end it because it was weight bearing. Well it isn't! So now I can fix it right.

God loving drat it I would have bought a different house if I had known about this! I am officially almost in over my head now.

daggerdragon
Jan 22, 2006

My titan engine can kick your titan engine's ass.

kastein posted:

I don't know what's holding it up right now because it sure as poo poo isn't the frame.

Pixie dust?

That's horrible and also

Spermy Smurf
Jul 2, 2004


How hosed are you here? My construction knowledge is pretty slim.

Somehow jack the whole thing up and hope the top ceiling weight bearing thing isn't destroyed, then replace the whole god drat wall after bracing a few sections with 4x4 posts?

Any windows or doors in the wall?


Edit: if top ceiling thing is destroyed by ants and crumbly, then burn the place down or somehow replace the thing that your rafters sit on?

Spermy Smurf fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Sep 28, 2013

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Hahahaha yeah it is pretty hosed.

Summary of damage:
Top plate (the two 2x4s stacked up on top of the studs and under the rafters) is 90% rot and ant nest. I am hoping they didn't start up into the rafters because I already nailed a new roof to those. They are solid still so if they did I will soak them with tetramethrin and forget I ever saw it.
Studs are ant nest and rot at the top, rot at the bottom.
Sheathing is all ant nest and rot.
Corner post is all rot till about 6 feet up, then a few feet of ant nest. I shudder to think about what it is above that.
Door opening framing is all rot.
Sill plate is a fine powder. Thanks, powderpost boring beetles.
Foundation is hosed.

My plan is to rip everything apart, cut wood back till I see no rot and no insect damage, soak heavily in insecticide, then rip the top 2-4 feet off the foundation (digging back the dirt along it where necessary) and rebuild, then waterproof.

Then tear up the door threshold and find out how far back the sill is rotten under that wall. Repair foundation, new sill plate, new threshold.

Then relevel the new foundation top, add new sill plate, add new top plate, jack up until level, add new studs, add sheathing.

Then attack the wall next to it, which has 16 feet of probably-rotten sills under it!

After that, there is only around 15 feet of sill that even has a chance of being rotten, so I am going to take out life insurance and hang myself. No, not really, but jesus loving christ, I hate shitlords who let a roof get this bad.

Spermy Smurf
Jul 2, 2004


How can you replace the top plate? Get an 8 foot section at a time, lift rafters off of it for a minute, and then slam in something on top of the frame that you already have to replace?

I can't even fathom this. Must be why these threads are so addicting to me.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Basically yes. Fortunately the lovely section is a little 4 or 5 foot long wall, and it has held up rotted in half for however many years, so I can probably commit some pretty serious sins while removing the old wall and jacking the rafters up to get the new one in without the house collapsing.

daggerdragon
Jan 22, 2006

My titan engine can kick your titan engine's ass.

Do you have permits to do any of this? I mean, how is your house not, like, condemned?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Yes, I have a permit. Also the building inspector has been impressed by the quality of my work (to the point of telling me I was wasting my money building things this solidly and could cut back a bit) every time he has shown up, and he and one of my neighbors (who also loves the work I am doing) used to be partners in a contracting gig and built a bunch of houses together.

It isn't condemned because it didn't look like it was this hosed when I bought it. In fact many people told me I should just do mold remediation, a new roof, basic renovation and move in. All the really terrible poo poo (aside from the failing roof and mold/water damage) was hidden deep under multiple layers of siding/flashing/other crap, so I have had a number of very ugly structural surprises along the way.

Think about that next time you consider buying an old house... or a new one for that mattter. The worst most expensive kinds of mistakes and damage are the structural ones that are by their very nature invisible even to the trained eye without opening walls. You can paper over a lot if it doesn't have to last long before falling apart. Many, many houses have problems like this (though not as severe, obviously) and no one knows because the walls haven't been opened in decades.

If I knew then what I know now, I either would have bought a different house, or bulldozed this one. It is saveable, but probably would have been better off going from scratch.

On the plus side, when I am done it should be ready for another 100 years!

E: oh - and this is a fairly ratty low income town as a whole. I can think of dozens of houses off the top of my head around town that look worse than mine did when I got it, and people are happily living in them and not even attempting to fix them. My place is the worst one in a decent neighborhood, so I stand to make things a hell of a lot better around here by fixing this up. Just wish it took less time.

kastein fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Sep 28, 2013

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



On the plus side, we've got something interesting to talk about?

But seriously that sucks. The whole project is kind of overwhelming even as a spectator. You'll get there though, like eating a whale. One bite at a time!

Not Wolverine
Jul 1, 2007

by Fluffdaddy


Just put up some structural drywall in the house of Theseus and call it good.

Ferremit
Sep 14, 2007
if I haven't posted about MY LANDCRUISER yet, check my bullbars for kangaroo prints

Seriously- It looks like its time to invest in a few Acroprops



They held up our portico for about 12 months when the bearers finally rotted out and the whole thing was being held up by the rafters getting caught in the gutter- With about 500kg of tiles and asbestos sheeting nailed to it!

Theyre loving awesome at supporting poo poo when your working on load bearing stuff- They use em in USAR worldwide.

Failing that, Hope your good at building cribbing!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I use 1/4 wall box tube and 4x6 beams as cribbing and own a 12 ton bottle jack. I am more worried about the exact steps I need to take and in what order I need to take them, which is going to take some choreographing so I don't paint myself into a corner.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Whoops, got a bit ahead of myself. Tore out more floorboards and a few ceiling/floor joists in the master bedroom... without taking the drywall and plaster/lath down first!



Now I should probably get all the stuff I care about out of the living room before it collapses I guess.

Ninja edit: whoops, forgot an l in that imgur image url!

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Warning: I use the word "gently caress" a lot, and am not particularly creative with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPeUU5mdwPQ

I really don't like carpenter ants.

Discovered the damaged cornerpost is a 4x6 not stacked 2x4s like I thought, I am probably going to use pressure treated when I put it back together because I don't want this happening again and don't have time/money to tear the porch off yet, so that rotted ant damaged porch is staying against the house for a while longer with only treated lumber and liberal applications of tetramethrin to keep the ants at bay

It looks like the sill plate is only rotted out for about two feet under the door threshold so that shouldn't be too bad to repair.

Anyone know how easy it is to get true dimensional PT lumber? I can't find it, I can only find 3.5x5.5 and I need either 3.75x5.75 or 4x6 true, not sure which because it is pretty badly rotted. Only the 4 inch dimension really needs to be true, the other can be whatever size. If I can find PT 4x4 true and PT 2x4 true I guess I can make do with those.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Ripped up the remainder of the floorboards Monday. In this video I take a giant cloud of dust, plaster, mold, and sawdust to the face. You can see the joists flex every time I pry a floorboard up, which is rather comforting when standing on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFi7olpzDCU

Tonight I tried to knock the ceiling down after removing the remaining joists. That bastard was tenacious, and doesn't fall in this video, but on the upside you get to watch me swinging from the rafters with one arm while hitting things with a 2x4 with the other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmY42pOrQNg

And then it finally falls, after I smash some more things loose and go medieval on its rear end with my feet and a wrecking bar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbQW_u8CykI

The last two may be sideways for a while, I rotated them in youtube's editor but it hasn't finished processing.

One of these days I will get a gopro so I can take proper videos by strapping it to a rafter over what I'm doing instead of propping my cellphone against things.

e: doing dumb poo poo like this for fun is why I can get away with eating like 3500 calories a day without gaining weight. Win/win.

kastein fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Oct 3, 2013

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011


A++ very satisfying ending would watch again.


I'm amazed at the work you're doing. To recap: is the one room you've semi-finished and are living in safe from the ant menace?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Maybe? I'm not sure

I should probably check for damage at that end of the house, but I haven't seen any of the signs I saw and didn't understand at the other end.

Plastik
Oct 14, 2005

ARE YOU TELLING ME SITTING HERE DOING NOTHING ISN'T HELPING? DAMN, WELL YOU JUST CONVINCED ME NOT TO TRY AT ALL!


Lipstick Apathy

That's an absolutely absurd amount of dust you're kicking up, none of which I'd want anything to do with. What are you using for dust control?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


I wear a 3m 6000 or 7000 series respirator with N95 particulate/paint filters whenever I am causing that kind of dust storm. It's why I sound like Darth Vader in the videos.

I learned to do that when I first started working on the place, kicked up a ton of dust with no mask and ended up with a lung infection of some sort, coughing up green goop for a few weeks. gently caress ever having that happen again.

The dust cloud from this one was the worst yet, it was so bad that my camera was completely useless with flash turned on for around ten minutes. Normally I kick up a lot less dust and still wear the mask.

Jeherrin
Jun 7, 2012


Those videos made me so absurdly happy

It wasn't until the end of the last one, though, that I could appreciate that yes, gently caress, there really was nothing holding that bad boy up. Very satisfying when it just slid out.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Literal tonight because I felt like using the splitting maul instead of a chainsaw. Quieter, you know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD64TLECkeA

Sadly the camera stopped recording halfway through breaking the ceiling in half (I really wish Android didn't have "features" like that), before I completely disassembled it and ripped all the plaster/lath off a wall because I was bored.

The aftermath:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ryCbBwl0nw
Don't tell OSHA, they would have a cow if they saw this. My house, my rules.

Where did it go?


kastein fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Oct 4, 2013

dreesemonkey
May 14, 2008


Pillbug

Awesome videos. So that's the master bedroom area? I guess you weren't happy with the floor joists, etc? Do you need 2x10s for that span or can you get by with 2x8s? Doing anything fun like a fireman's pole into the livingroom(?) below?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


The originals were 2x8s and they were severely undersized for a 15 foot span. Rule of thumb I heard from a former coworker who used to do carpentry was 1 inch height for each foot of span, which means I need 2x15s. An online table I found said that a 2x10 should do it, and my local lumberyard has 16 foot 2x12s in stock, so I'm going to go a little overboard and use them.

The floor joists were undersized, badly attached, and in general not in the best shape so I tore em out. New ones will only cost around $270-300 so it's not the biggest deal.

First I have to rebuild two walls of the foundation, replace something like 16-20 feet of sill plate, and redo whatever sheathing is rotted and insect damaged, however.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Tore down some more walls in the living room and shoveled up a lot of the debris (into one corner, till I feel like bagging it.) On the plus side the sheathing boards and studs look pretty drat good on a wall I was really afraid would be hosed up. I haven't opened the wall I'm truly afraid of though, the one at the end with the back porch attached to it. The sill plates in that are probably toast and I'm really thinking I won't touch it at all till I have the wall by the front door rebuilt because I don't need that kind of discouragement till things start looking up again.

tetrapyloctomy
Feb 18, 2003

Okay -- you talk WAY too fast.

Nap Ghost

... I am hoping your house hasn't fallen on you?

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Not yet. In fact I just haven't posted because I have no real pictures or updates... I spent this weekend repairing my various jeeps instead of working on the house for the most part, though I did shovel up a very large pile of plaster debris and throw it in bags. Need to tear down a few more walls and bag them up, then I can vacuum the living room, tarp it off, move everything out of the kitchen, and gut the kitchen. Once the entire first floor is gutted and bagged I can get a dumpster and spend a weekend hauling everything out to it.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Well that was a loving pain in the rear end.

The cold snap we had a few days ago apparently finished breaking one of the valves for my clothes washer hookup. Cast brass isn't strong in tension, from the appearance of the broken surface it's been freezing partially every time it gets cold for the last few years. Apparently my heat tape didn't protect it (it stopped a few inches from the valve.) So I came home Monday night to the sound of water spraying everywhere. Fortunately I had all my plumbing tools and spare materials on hand so it didn't take long to stub that off till I can buy another valve base... and more heat tape.

Then this morning when I shut the main off before leaving for half a week for Thanksgiving (why tempt fate by leaving it on?) the bottom plate of the loving water meter exploded. Water everywhere again. Not sure when that froze, I've had heat tape coiled around it for two years, maybe it cracked two years ago and I was finally rough enough with the valve to shake the cracked pieces apart.

Either way I get to call the town on Monday when I get back and ask them what it'll cost me to have a new meter tossed in... again. They just upgraded me to the wireless meter a year or two ago, wish the old meter had exploded not this one. Dammit.

Fortunately it's still a dirt floor so I just let the water soak in. Would have been very annoying with a cement floor and a shop full of tools down there.

Still haven't done anything on the house really (aside from this kind of emergency crap) but assuming we get a few warm days early in December I'm gonna start on that stupid sill plate and wall I should have done long ago. Once that's done I can start putting the master bedroom together again. I have something like a week of vacation time to burn by the end of the year so things should get going at that point.

Queen_Combat
Jan 15, 2011


Still waiting on the "goony hacker den" promise.

apatite
Dec 2, 2006

Got yer back, Jack



Wow I just caught up on all the rot-stuff, man.. That is discouraging but you are doing a good job of Taking Care of Business so just keep at that poo poo!

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kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.


Geirskogul, I'll get to it one of these days right now I'm just focusing on structure and such.

apatite, yeah it is quite discouraging but poo poo happens. I should have detected this, though it was pretty well hidden. The weather is looking pretty warm this weekend so I may start tearing the sill plate out and put new mortar on top of the foundation to level it out for the new sill plate, I haven't decided yet.

I got the new water meter in today, so I have real indoor running water again. It's nice coming back to the late 19th century.

Also, another AI goon alerted me to the fact that his company was about to scrap a repairable Bridgeport vertical mill clone (it's a Sharp First HMV) so I rented a trailer and went to go get it. I fear this is going to be expensive after repairing it, but oh well, I wanted one anyways.

I still haven't figured out how I'm getting it in the house, but it's going to be some pretty poo poo no matter what happens.

kastein fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Dec 5, 2013

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