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FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Talk about HPDEs, Chumpcar, Lemons, "real" racing, time trials whatever you want as long as it's full speed on a paved track.

Might as well provide some info for people who are thinking about getting on track. Racers should be able to figure it out for themselves.

HPDEs

HPDE stands for High Performance Drivers Education. It's a series of levels to train drivers who have never been on a track or driven their car in a performance setting into competent fast drivers.

Green group
While the colors and names vary every club has a place where they stick the first timers. Green group is generally getting everyone used to being on a racing surface. Teaching the very basics of car dynamics and what happens when you give inputs, and what to do when your inputs don't go so well. The pace of the group is very slow from the perspective of experienced drivers, and terrifying fast from the perspective of new drivers. Generally you only stay in green group for a handful of events before getting promoted up.

Yellow group
Basically still green group but for people who have moved up in speed a bit and have proven that they can get their car around the course without putting their instructor and themselves in danger. You're pushed to begin to pick up speed as well as to stop the common newbie mistakes. Brake zones are shortened, threshold breaking is taught but braking is still largely done in a straight line. The instructors start to force you to use the whole track and turn in points are adjusted to allow you to pick up some speed in the turns.


Blue group/Advanced group
And here's where they teach you the good stuff. Blue group is where you're expected to pick up a lot of speed and begin to drive the track the actual proper way. The lines between braking and turning blur and you're expected to push the car near it's limit.

Red group/Solo group
At this point you've learned as much as you can, or are willing to, from an in-car instructor and are turned loose on the track. You aren't usually given an instructor, if you are the expectation is that you won't need the instructor in the car for every session during the event. This is the end game for the student portion of HPDEs, the next step from here is to become an instructor and teach the new drivers your experiences enter events for free. I've heard that Solo students still occasionally ask for instructors but I haven't made it that far yet.

Instructor group
The instructors get to go out and play with each other while scaring their students in their cars for a change.

Getting solo'd

Depending on the club you may be able to be solo'd by your instructor. This means that you are allowed on the track by yourself. It generally means that you have proven yourself competent to your instructor and he trusts his reputation on the fact that you won't make an rear end of yourself. This is usually a per track day/weekend thing, so the next time you hit the track you'll have to prove your competence again.


I've never done this before how do I start

* You need a car with a vague attempt of sporting intentions. No SUVs, trucks, vans, etc. Don't worry if your car isn't a "fast" car. I've seen plenty of normal to out right slow cars signed up for track days. If you're just starting out don't worry too much about your car. I've seen Beetles, Mazda 2s, Civics, Integras, Cobalts and a `59 Bel Air all running around the track. Also I've seen an absolute shitton of BMWs, Corvettes, Miatas, Porches and Mustangs.

Ok I have a car I can use, how do I find events

http://http://www.motorsportreg.com

Select "Driver school" and search. Don't worry if you see an event by BMW Car Club of America or Porsche Club of America. Neither cares what kind of car you bring. However if you plan on running multiple events take a look into how much a membership costs, the track day costs are almost always reduced for members. There are a large amount of clubs that run track days, a lot of them are regional. If you're unsure about one of them then ask on here, there is a good chance someone has experience with them.

I've run with THSCC, Asphalt Ventures and BMWCCA (Tarheel chapter) and can recommend all of them highly.

What do I need to do to prepare my car?

Other than making sure that it is in good mechanical condition, replace worn suspension components, up to date on oil and other fluids (differential, transmission), you'll want to make sure that your cooling system is running at top performance.

The only change that you really should make to your car for running it on the track is to buy a set of track oriented brake pads. If you have a *light* car you can possibly squeak by with an autocross oriented pad but I wouldn't recommend it. The only thing you'll be required to do is change your brake fluid 90 days or less before the event.

The first event I did I ran with a set of Hawk HP+s on a Miata, it got me through the day but by the end of sessions I would have to STAND on the brake pedal to get the car to stop. I changed out my HP+s for a set of Hawk HT-10s and it is a night and day difference.

Before you sign up for an event take a look at their website, almost all reputable clubs should have tech information that will tell you exactly what they expect to be checked on your car before the event. In my experience so far most clubs will expect you to have your car checked out at least once a year by a mechanic. Most performance oriented shops should be able to give your car a "track inspection" for $10-20, clubs are generally affiliated with certain local mechanics who will give cheap inspections for the clubs they sponsor.

What do I need to prepare myself?
Usually the only safety gear you need is a helmet. SA2005 or newer for the most part, many clubs will also accept M rated helmets. If you're just trying it out and don't want to buy a helmet e-mail the club and see if you can get a loaner from them.

If you've never driven your car hard go and do an autocross. It'll give you an idea as to what you can do in a car. Ride along with people get a feel for how hard a car can actually turn and brake. You certainly don't have to but I feel autocross provides good experience to certain aspects of driving that are hard to practice on track.

I have a convertible

You need a roll bar, 4 points attached to the body of the vehicle or better. Some clubs may allow you on without one but you'd be foolish to go out with out proper rollover protection. If your car doesn't have a top, or only has a soft top you may be asked to wear arm restraints. Check with the club you are running with if loaners are available before buying some.

I'll make another post later with some information about what I drive and do. The short of it is I'm a blue student that runs VIR and CMP and races in Chumpcar.

FatCow fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jun 13, 2012

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j3rkstore
Jan 28, 2009

L'esprit d'escalier

NASA (http://nasaproracing.com/event) is also another great source of HPDE/TT/Racing events.

This weekend I'll be HPDEing at Summit Point Main during Hyperfest (http://www.hyper-fest.com/)

Blooot
Mar 19, 2001



I'll be racing the family 240z vintage racer in Group 7 at Mosport this weekend. Should be a change from Lemons racing. It's been two years since I go to drive it at the Walter Mitty -- can't wait to hear that unmuffled straight six wail.

I drive a BBW
Jun 2, 2008


Fun Shoe

I did my first HPDE in October of last year and was hooked immediately. I've been to a few since then and have another coming up June 30-July 1. I don't have the most ideal car (2011 Camaro SS) for the track, so I'm actually starting to save up so I can buy a Camaro-Mustang Challenge (CMC) Mustang.

I know a Miata would be a more ideal track car, but I'm a sucker for a V8. Even if I never race the car, I would prefer to have a dedicated track car, especially since the cost of consumables on a CMC car are significantly cheaper than my Camaro. I thought about building one up from a street car as well, but from what I've found it's cheaper to buy a car that's already built.

Also if you're in Texas, you have The Drivers Edge (http://www.thedriversedge.net/) for HPDEs at MSR-Houston, Texas World Speedway in College Station, and MSR-Cresson in Fort Worth. These things fill up quickly so you have to register early. Grandsport Speedway in Houston hosts HPDEs as well. Texas World Speedway also has a Performance Driving School that they host.

I drive a BBW fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jun 13, 2012

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Did my first track event a few weeks back at CMP. 95 Miata with HP+ in front, HPS in rear, a dot 4 fluid flush and crappy street rubber. I had so much more fun than autocross. If you are at all on the fence about track events go.
Heres a crappy video of my crappy runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6fzZJX944g
Also to add to what the OP said about cars you need. I rode with a guy at the same event driving a ford escort zx2 base model with hawk pads and all season tires. He did have sway bars, but that was it. He was chasing down a Turbo RS and a GT3 in the corners, the porsches also had racing slicks.

That said im looking at a roll bar for the miata now. Any one have opinions about which to go for? I was thinking a Hard Dog M1 hard top with x brace.

Sadi fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jun 14, 2012

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

They let you run without a rollbar?

I've been satisfied with my Hard Dog Hardcore Hardtop Single Diagonal. Also, proof in the 95mph sideways pudding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMmjaaSQP08

FatCow
Apr 22, 2002
I MAP THE FUCK OUT OF PEOPLE


Sadi posted:

That said im looking at a roll bar for the miata now. Any one have opinions about which to go for? I was thinking a Hard Dog M1 hard top with x brace.

The only thing I'd worry about with the X brace is the note on the bottom "* Our Bolt-In Harness Bar must be used for harness attachment with the X Brace Diagonals" If you end up putting a 5/6/7 point harness in the car not everyone accepts bolt-in bars as appropriate harness mounts. They want a bar that is integral to the cage/roll bar.

If it's a car you drive on the street I'd recommend the M1 hard top double diagonal since it actually lets you see out the rear view mirror, if that isn't important the single diagonal works just as well. The single diagonal hard top is the one in my car.

Here is my chariot as it currently sits. I'm currently in the middle of wrapping it in vinyl. I'll be at CMP this weekend with THSCC if anyone else happens to be there. Feel free to bug myself or my wife if you are. The car is a fairly beat up 1997 Miata sitting on re-valved Bilstein stocks and 600/375lb springs. The motor in it is out of a 2005 Miata.



As far as consumables you really can't beat the Miata. I've done 9 weekends with the car and the wife has done 2 with it. Still has the first set of track tires on it with about 40% tread remaining and the first set of track pads on it with about 30% remaining on the fronts, rears are basically new looking.

Here was my last time at CMP with some data logging stuff I was playing around with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OJNnvs8Wz4

And a VIR video with some other data logging. I may have been doing off-line exercises with my instructor during this session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7yYtAkECvA

FatCow fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jun 14, 2012

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Grimey Drawer

I've never done a track day with the run groups you describe.

I generally see:

Novice -- Instructor and limited passing

Group 3 -- Point by passing, straights only

Group 2 -- Point by passing everywhere except maybe select corner. Possibly open passing on straights.

Group 1 -- Open passing (except maybe select corners)

In California, I generally use NCRC. Not that new person friendly (instructors cost extra). Not a lot of weekend days. But cheap as balls (under $100 for buttonwillow). You may get 1 fewer session that others, but that isn't worth $100 to me.
Speedventures is hideously overpriced

In the midwest, MVP is very good for novices, but their passing rules might annoy the more experenced.

j3rkstore
Jan 28, 2009

L'esprit d'escalier

Strangely enough some clubs will let convertibles run as long as they pass the broom test, i.e. if a stick from the top of your windshield to the top of your factory roll protection doesn't touch your helmet. Personally I think its a terrible idea but I'm not the liable one.

NASA typically runs HPDEs like this, but certain regions may not have HPDE4.

HPDE1 - Your first track days, instructor in the car, very unlikely to let you run solo, passing with pointbys in limited areas.
HPDE2 - You've got a few track days, instructor in the car but more likely to let you run solo after checking you out, passing with pointbys in limited areas.
HPDE3 - You've got some good experience. No instructor, passing with pointbys, more passing zones.
HPDE4 - Sometimes mixed with TT groups, lots of experience, no instructor, open passing.

You get a "passbook" that you keep with you from event to event, instructors fill out out and provide feedback as well as detail for your next instructor where you need coaching. Moving up from one group to the next is accomplished with a check ride where they evaluate you to see if your skills are sufficient for you to move up.

j3rkstore fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 14, 2012

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

j3rkstore posted:

Strangely enough some clubs will let convertibles run as long as they pass the broom test, i.e. if a stick from the top of your windshield to the top of your factory roll protection doesn't touch your helmet. Personally I think its a terrible idea but I'm not the liable one.



Sadi did a track day with this level of factory protection.

SNiPER_Magnum
Jan 21, 2001

Don't close. Don't close.

Nap Ghost

Good note on the NASA passport or other log book. I like to read over mine before every weekend to figure out what I need to improve on. I think every club has some form of logbook for students, be sure to get one. They all vary slightly, but generally they have a list of skills graded 1-5 or 1-10 and a small notes section for instructor comments. When all your skills are very good or great for your run level, you get soloed/promoted. Instructors usually have a duplicate sheet to fill out and turn in to the club for their record of your progress. Instructors can also put this info on Motorsportreg so you have a record online too.

Your logbook is basically proof of your skills. When you jump around to different clubs, use your logbook to place yourself in the correct group. I've never actually been asked for skills proof before, but I've only just graduated into NASA Group 3. Maybe they do when you're in the full solo groups.

I've run with NASA Mid Atlantic and Southeast, THSCC, and PCA Carolinas. Hopefully I'll get to VIR twice this year with NASA again

First Time Caller
Nov 1, 2004



I'm planning to finally get in on some Friday at the Track and NASA HPDE events at Summit Point this year in the miata. I will be a forever novice because watching videos of SM and hpde drivers flipping scares the piss out of me.

Edit: Especially the video posted above. All of his inputs looked incredibly smooth, he hits a bump and rolls the car. :scary:

First Time Caller fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jun 14, 2012

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



I've only been only to 2 track days, but had extensive seat time at Bondurant Driving School in Phoenix. Shaking Bob Bondurant's hand was worth at least one level up in run group. Jk. A few comments on that --
- even if you paid a lot of cash for the privilege, it's so much easier to abuse someone else's car. I found it so much easier to full-throttle track a car out to a wall or a rough rumblestrip when I wasn't concerned about damaging the car. It's weird -- damaging the car would likely damage me, but I never thought of it like that.
- seat time is crucial, but continuous seat time is even better. Over 3 days, I must have had about 10 20-min sessions in their trainer Vettes. That really helps you learn the ins and outs of the track surface, which is one component to being fast.
- being harnessed into a real race seat over a bad seat doubles or triples the feel and feedback you get from the car. I really don't want to go back out on track in the Z06 without a better set and at least a 4-pt. It's not fun to try to reign in that much torque without more feel. The steering is already pretty dead.
- tires. The Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s that the trainers were on were a very good tire. They had great grip and a non-deceptive progression to the limit. In contrast, the Goodyear Eagle F1 runflats got greasy and broke with less warning.

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004


j3rkstore posted:

Strangely enough some clubs will let convertibles run as long as they pass the broom test, i.e. if a stick from the top of your windshield to the top of your factory roll protection doesn't touch your helmet. Personally I think its a terrible idea but I'm not the liable one.

That only works for select cars with actual roll hoops that are visible all the time (no style bars or cars like the 911 cabriolets). Your helmet has to clear or be 1-2" underneath the stick depending on how anal the club is, and they measure dash to hoop unless the windshield can support the weight of the car (like an s2000).

Unfortunately for me his means I can't run my S2000 without a rollbar, and the harness requires cutting up the interior. I need to find a new rwd dd I can track

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.



Pillbug

Muffinpox posted:

Unfortunately for me his means I can't run my S2000 without a rollbar, and the harness requires cutting up the interior. I need to find a new rwd dd I can track

Isn't it only a few relatively small and easily replaceable interior panels that you have to cut up? Just buy replacements unless you have a super unique interior colour and swap them out when it comes time to sell.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007



You can also look into renting race vehicles for the track. A bunch of the guys I race with have never owned their own race vehicle. They've always rented them from the same guy. There are definite benefits to doing it this way and I've been tempted to switch...

Pros:
  • Show up and drive. No need to buy a tow vehicle or trailer, store your car during the winter, maintain your vehicle, prep your vehicle, or really worry about a vehicle
  • Spare vehicle if one goes down. Most of the rental shops here will trailer in extra vehicles in case of malfunctions or whatever.
  • You get a pit crew and can enjoy your day instead of futzing with the vehicle.
  • Catered lunch!
  • Bunch of people to hang out with at the track. Trading stories.
  • Instruction if requested.

Cons:
  • Not your own vehicle. Though, typically if you rent often you'll get the same vehicle.

Locally, I know of a miata rental, spec e30 rental, spec racer rental shop. All run by good guys.

Little tidbit, it is way cheaper to repair a spec racer than a miata if you bin it into a wall. And yes, if you crash a rental vehicle. You are responsible for the repairs.

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004


Seat Safety Switch posted:

Isn't it only a few relatively small and easily replaceable interior panels that you have to cut up? Just buy replacements unless you have a super unique interior colour and swap them out when it comes time to sell.

No, in order to have correct belt placement I'd need to run my harness bar through the center console, so I'd need to buy an entire new center section as well as not being able to use the only storage compartment in the cabin.

c355n4 posted:

Locally, I know of a miata rental, spec e30 rental, spec racer rental shop. All run by good guys.

Little tidbit, it is way cheaper to repair a spec racer than a miata if you bin it into a wall. And yes, if you crash a rental vehicle. You are responsible for the repairs.

I've only seen one rental shop in the NE and they want $800 to use their cars, which is separate from the track entrance fee.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007



Muffinpox posted:

I've only seen one rental shop in the NE and they want $800 to use their cars, which is separate from the track entrance fee.

Yea, it is one of those things where you need to do your own math and weigh the pros/cons. Most rentals will work out to about $1k a day give or take. A lot of these guys don't have the time to worry about working on their own car. I guess we have more options in the tri-state area.

http://entropyracing.net/ - Spec Racers
http://www.drive-gear.com/ - Spec E30
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/ - Spec Miata

I'm sure it is obvious; but, it all comes down to the number of events you attend in a season and the cost to maintain the vehicle you've chosen to race. If you do only a few races a year it may well be cheaper to just rent and never worry about it. I'm also coming from the standpoint of a car that is not street legal and must be towed. Tracking your daily driver or "street toy" is a whole other can of worms.

Some personal crappy math on my situation:

4 events a year
~$1400 entry fees
~$250 gas for race car
~$1800 in consumables (tires/brake pads/fluids)
~$600 in diesel to tow
---------
~$4050

This is ignoring costs of buying/prepping my race car, tow vehicle, trailer, and storage. My consumables are relatively low compared to most.

Racing isn't cheap and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.

I'm not trying to push people to renting. I don't rent. But, it is another option and one less thing holding you back from hitting the track. You don't NEED to go out and buy a sporty car or risk your own car. Try it first and see if you like it.

SNiPER_Magnum
Jan 21, 2001

Don't close. Don't close.

Nap Ghost

One time in class, the instructor goes over the scenario of damaging your car on the track and realizing what that means to you. He asks people who owns their cars, and the answers are the typical "I do," "My husband does," and "I'm still making payments." Then one guy goes "Yeah, my car belongs to Avis."
That's one way to rent a racer.

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Phone posted:



Sadi did a track day with this level of factory protection.

I was running a borrowed hard top, which for some reason made it ok to them. I personally wasn't super comfortable with it. I dont think the hard top would provide any roll over protection what so ever.

aventari
Mar 20, 2001

I SWIFTLY PENETRATED YOUR MOMS MEAT TACO WHILE AGGRESSIVELY FONDLING THE UNDERSIDE OF YOUR DADS HAIRY BALLSACK, THEN RIPPED HIS SAUSAGE OFF AND RAMMED IT INTO YOUR MOMS TAILPIPE. I JIZZED FURIOUSLY, DEEP IN YOUR MOMS MEATY BURGER WHILE THRUSTING A ANSA MUFFLER UP MY GREASY TAILHOLE

I'm doing a Sat/Sun track day at Willow Springs on 7/7 and 7/8. It's at Streets and it's pretty cheap, like $85 and $115 dollars.
https://www.extremespeedtrackevents...nt-registration

I think I've run with these guys once before and didn't have any issues. I'll be taking out my new track car, a $300 E30 with 250k miles that I just got running a week ago. We'll see how long it lasts before something breaks.

Stick
Aug 15, 2011


I did my second HPDE event last weekend and am hooked. I went with the IA chapter of the BMWCCA for their annual "Longest Day" two day driving school. This is the only event I have done (last year and this year) but I would highly recommend it. They hold the event out at MAM, which seems to be a very newbie friendly track with tons of runoff in every direction. The instructors are very helpful too, and an instructor will have at most 2 students so there is lots of 1 on 1. I got my mom to run last year, and both my wife and my mom to run with me this year. My wife keeps asking when we can do another one... She may be every bit as hooked as I am.

Last year I started in group 3 (OP's Yellow?) because I've had a decent amount of autocross experience. By the end of the weekend I was reasonably consistent, and was allowed to run solo with group 1-2 (blue/red) for the final session. This year I was placed in group 2 at the start, and picked up right where I left off last year. By the end of the second session I felt I had passed the point I reached last year, and by the 3rd session I was pretty drat consistent and my instructor ran out of things to say. It kind of caught me off guard, but they cut me loose for the rest of day one and all of day 2 save for one checkup ride along. I guess it typically takes 4-6 weekends for a student to get their solo wings, so for someone to do it in 1.5 is very very unusual. My instructor actually commented that I would be a good instructor with a bit more seat time. Pretty awesome considering most people in my run group had over twice the track time as me!

Need to get out to some more HPDE's at more tracks yet this year to keep on the progress!



I shot some video. Apologies for the audio, the camera was in the front grill so the cooling fan and serpentine belt whine are pretty loud. On the plus side, the intake snorkel is very close to there so you at least hear the engine too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EabgvI64wnQ

At 8:30 I experience my first ever 4 wheels off track. Was trying too hard to keep the distance to the modified boss 302 I let by the lap before and carried more speed than I could bleed off before turn in. Still, turned a couple 1:55.0 laps this session which isn't bad for a heavy 15 yr old 5'er. Full 3.5 seconds faster than my best lap last year which I am very happy with as well.


Vehicle:
1997 BMW 540i 6 speed 172,000 miles
Hankook RS3's
EAC Coilovers
Eibach / M5 swaybars
Partial exhaust delete (Y Resonator and rear dummy muffler)

kill me now
Sep 14, 2003

Why's Hank crying?

'CUZ HE JUST GOT DUNKED ON!

SNiPER_Magnum posted:

Good note on the NASA passport or other log book. I like to read over mine before every weekend to figure out what I need to improve on. I think every club has some form of logbook for students, be sure to get one. They all vary slightly, but generally they have a list of skills graded 1-5 or 1-10 and a small notes section for instructor comments. When all your skills are very good or great for your run level, you get soloed/promoted. Instructors usually have a duplicate sheet to fill out and turn in to the club for their record of your progress. Instructors can also put this info on Motorsportreg so you have a record online too.

Your logbook is basically proof of your skills. When you jump around to different clubs, use your logbook to place yourself in the correct group. I've never actually been asked for skills proof before, but I've only just graduated into NASA Group 3. Maybe they do when you're in the full solo groups.

I've run with NASA Mid Atlantic and Southeast, THSCC, and PCA Carolinas. Hopefully I'll get to VIR twice this year with NASA again

I've done probably 50 track days with 4 different organizations and have never had a single person ask to see my NASA log book. Its mostly self policing with regards to run group classing. If you're a total slug who lied to get into the expert group they'll probably black flag you and you'll have a conversation with the head instructor after which you'll probably get bumped down into a different run group.


c355n4 posted:

Cons:
  • Not your own vehicle. Though, typically if you rent often you'll get the same vehicle.

Other con is that usually your financially responsible for any damage you do to the car before you leave the track that day. You wad it up into some armco and destroy the car then you better have enough cash in your bank account to replace it. At least with a personally owned car you can you can cry yourself to sleep over the loss of your car and deal with the financial consequences more slowly over a longer time.


As far as per day costs of the rental if you really look at your costs to run your own car you probably arent too far off anyway. I know I totaled out my total trackday expenses from an entire year a year or two ago and divided it against the number of days I did and it cost something like $1100 a day between travel, damaged parts, consumables, and track fees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTG579ORDqo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjfJntYph_4
and just some awful driving at Monticello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZPxV-Ws-7c

kill me now fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jun 15, 2012

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.


Can't you get track day insurance? In the UK you can.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007



InitialDave posted:

Can't you get track day insurance? In the UK you can.

HPDE days sure. Once you start talking about TT/Races/Enduros or anything that involves timing or competition, there is no insurance that I know of.

http://www.ontrackinsurance.com/index.aspx

Edit*

Oh that reminds me, if you do hit an armco and damage it. You're often liable for the costs to fix said armco/wall/cone/whatever.

c355n4 fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jun 15, 2012

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


If anyone's considering a HPDE day, my advice is to please please point people by as often as you can. If you can see them in your mirrors, they are generally faster than you (even if they're down by 200hp). You are much better off following them for a bit and observing their line

aventari posted:

I'm doing a Sat/Sun track day at Willow Springs on 7/7 and 7/8. It's at Streets and it's pretty cheap, like $85 and $115 dollars.
https://www.extremespeedtrackevents...nt-registration

I think I've run with these guys once before and didn't have any issues. I'll be taking out my new track car, a $300 E30 with 250k miles that I just got running a week ago. We'll see how long it lasts before something breaks.

Are you going to do the twilight session? Seems like a lot of fun (I would go but I refuse to drive Bay Area to Rosamond twice in a month). Extreme Speed is my least favorite DE organizer, which is not to say that they're bad per se, merely that they tend stuff their run groups full of people and don't keep a real tight grip on the proceedings. Think opposite of NASA or POC.

Now this is less of an issue in the open passing groups where everyone knows what they're doing, but in say high intermediate there are a lot of chimps who have no business being there (e.g. Corvette drivers who never really learned how to take a corner because R-comps you guys and look at me mash the pedal down the front straight )

not to pick on anyone who owns a Corvette but what the heck it'a an entertaining stereotype

Boiled Water
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


If I want to drive rally cross how much of a difference will awd do compared to fwd?

ultimateforce
Apr 25, 2008

SKINNY JEANS CANT HOLD BACK THIS ARC


I believe a low powered FWD is more fun than a low powered AWD car, due to drivetrain power loss. That's what I've heard anyway.

Boiled Water
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


ultimateforce posted:

I believe a low powered FWD is more fun than a low powered AWD car, due to drivetrain power loss. That's what I've heard anyway.

That's a relief, danish second hand market is, for lack of a better word: Expensive as balls.

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004


ultimateforce posted:

I believe a low powered FWD is more fun than a low powered AWD car, due to drivetrain power loss. That's what I've heard anyway.

Not really, the driving styles are pretty different. For rally-x, awd will be faster but not necessarily more fun.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.



Pillbug

Muffinpox posted:

Not really, the driving styles are pretty different. For rally-x, awd will be faster but not necessarily more fun.
The driving styles are really different.

I've driven both a '90 Civic Si and a '97 Impreza at rallycross and most of my time in the former was spent trying to keep it out of snowdrifts, remembering which way the front wheels are pointed, and keeping the car directly on the ruts. The latter I could pop some power oversteer (as much as the crappy engine would let me crank out) and focus on my direction and the weight shift of the car.

As long as you can avoid that "slingshot" effect (lose grip, turn steering wheel, suddenly get grip and go rocketing off because you forgot where the front wheels are pointed) you can be really fast. That comes with practice. I ended up going to AWD and didn't have to worry about it, but I feel like I should have nailed it down better.

We class our rallycross events by drivetrain (FWD, RWD, AWD) and nothing else, so it's a pretty good comparison. Pretty much everything is stock. The best FWD drivers are running not far off the best RWD drivers, who are in turn not running very far off the AWD drivers. You won't be missing out with an FWD car.

The thing to remember: at rallycross, cheap is fast. If you can't risk pirouetting it into a snowbank, you can't win. Ride height, tires and soft suspension help a lot too.

Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 16, 2012

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Admirable Gusto posted:

If anyone's considering a HPDE day, my advice is to please please point people by as often as you can. If you can see them in your mirrors, they are generally faster than you (even if they're down by 200hp). You are much better off following them for a bit and observing their line.

1) For beginners, check as frequently as you can manage safely. If you feel ilke you're holding up, ask your instructor to help you check. Checking every 10s might hurt your ability to focus.

2) Don't target fixate on cars leading you. You need to keep running through the list of braking, apex, trackout points. Staring at a car ahead of you can lead to driving suboptimal lines.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Seat Safety Switch posted:

The thing to remember: at rallycross, cheap is fast. If you can't risk pirouetting it into a snowbank, you can't win. Ride height, tires and soft suspension help a lot too.

Since he mentioned Danish, I assume he's talking about European rallycross, which is wheel to wheel. But that format at the lower levels seems to be even more banging than American rallyx.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.



Pillbug

kimbo305 posted:

Since he mentioned Danish, I assume he's talking about European rallycross, which is wheel to wheel. But that format at the lower levels seems to be even more banging than American rallyx.
Even cheaper, then! FWD might have a major advantage in that as it'll be harder for someone to damage your drive axles by clipping your rear quarter.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Grimey Drawer

Admirable Gusto posted:

If anyone's considering a HPDE day, my advice is to please please point people by as often as you can. If you can see them in your mirrors, they are generally faster than you (even if they're down by 200hp). You are much better off following them for a bit and observing their line

Also, remember that if they're on your rear end in every corner and look pissed, but you pull away from them in the straight because you have a corvette, let them pass, even if they're in a station wagon.

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007



kimbo305 posted:

2) Don't target fixate on cars leading you. You need to keep running through the list of braking, apex, trackout points. Staring at a car ahead of you can lead to driving suboptimal lines.

This is very, very good advice. Do not follow the car in front of you. You will often turn in early and apex early. This is a bad thing to do. The following video is a prime example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNsrcxkyBJA

Pr0kjayhawk
Nov 30, 2002

Zoom Zoom, motherfuckers


My kind of thread! I've been running with NASA for about two years now and have about 20 track days under my belt with the Elise. I did one track day with my S2000 back in 2008 (with Animedork and his friend having the bachelor party at Willow Springs) and my most recent track day in May with the Boxster Spyder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcnTjhSbKlY

The Spyder was goddamn amazing on the track. Once I came down from the high of driving it on track, I was a little pissed at how effortless it was to drive quickly compared to the Elise. I feel like I have to wring the neck of the Elise to get it to do what I want combined with the fact that it's brutal in every sense of the word. I ended up running identical lap times on the Spyder (using very crude timing) as I did with the Elise last year at Arizona Motorsport Park. Despite having 8.9lb/hp (compared to the Elise's 5.9lb/hp) it did incredibly well. Shows what can be done with a more modern suspension setup. With the Elise, I think having that much power in such a light car requires extremely sensitive steering and throttle inputs to keep it pointed in the right direction and get decent times. With the Spyder you don't have to be as careful and the extra torque really helps coming out of low speed corners.

I recently added a huge 5-element diffuser to the Elise and will be adding a splitter and Nitron 1-way coilovers in the Phoenix off-season. I briefly considered a huge wing but the tracks around here aren't fast enough to justify drilling four holes in the fiberglass clam.

What are you guys using for lap timers? I'm interested in using Harry's Laptimer Pro with a GPS add-on (http://www.amazon.com/Emprum-UltiMa...s/dp/B005I0JYUY).

got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


c355n4 posted:

This is very, very good advice. Do not follow the car in front of you. You will often turn in early and apex early. This is a bad thing to do.

Did the same thing at Buttonwillow a year ago when I first started tracking my car. Followed a guy in an S2000 that was just slightly (annoyingly) faster than me, early apexed one of the more dangerous corners and nearly put my car into a pit wall (probably made the corner worker crap his pants too). Thank god for stability control that cannot be fully disabled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoB03CNrnpE

c355n4
Jan 3, 2007



Pr0kjayhawk posted:


What are you guys using for lap timers? I'm interested in using Harry's Laptimer Pro with a GPS add-on (http://www.amazon.com/Emprum-UltiMa...s/dp/B005I0JYUY).

They don't run AMB transponders for you guys?

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got off on a technicality
Feb 7, 2007

oh dear


I just rent a transponder when it's available, but my friends pretty much all use Harry's lap timer with windshield mounts. I don't think the GPS tracking has been an issue that one would need an external receiver

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