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Diva Cupcake
Aug 15, 2005



big money big clit posted:

I think that the knowledge you acquire getting a CCNA is a lot more universal than knowing the exact flags for the powershell command to add a secondary DNS server to a zone or whatever. Everything you ever touch will be connected to a network, understanding how networks work will aide you tremendously in troubleshooting even if you go down the server admin path.
yes this

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milk milk lemonade
Jul 29, 2016


Sometimes you gotta read the tea leaves. Security and networking are big moneymakers and they're going to keep growing. Traditional Windows sysadminning is not. Unless your goal is to work at a smaller company as 'the guy', you are going to have a tougher time getting a legit high-level Windows sysadmin position as time marches forward and the need for bodies keeps going down and there's an already deep labor pool for that stuff. If you can get really good at SCOM and understand Microsofts implemetation of private cloud I'd go for it, but outside of that I couldn't reccomend it (over other things, anyways) honestly.

Solaron
Sep 6, 2007

Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you.


I'd been looking into going down the certification path (I got CISSP, was looking at CEH and then maybe OSCP next) but I've been seeing you guys talk about WGU a lot. I have my BS in IT, but it looks like the MS in Security includes a few certifications and is something where you can set your own pace? Sorry if I'm late to the conversation, I just started reading about it.

I have a very hard time getting my management to sign off on the training courses I want to take, but the tuition reimbursement bypasses them and is handled 100% by HR and is pretty easy to get into so maybe going for my MS would be a better option.

Also, I'll second(or third/fourth, whatever) going for your networking track and bypassing the Windows admin. You'll be better served by having the networking foundation and learning the Windows stuff as you need than trying to do the opposite.

Doug
Feb 27, 2006

This station is
non-operational.


Solaron posted:

I'd been looking into going down the certification path (I got CISSP, was looking at CEH and then maybe OSCP next) but I've been seeing you guys talk about WGU a lot. I have my BS in IT, but it looks like the MS in Security includes a few certifications and is something where you can set your own pace? Sorry if I'm late to the conversation, I just started reading about it.

I have a very hard time getting my management to sign off on the training courses I want to take, but the tuition reimbursement bypasses them and is handled 100% by HR and is pretty easy to get into so maybe going for my MS would be a better option.

Also, I'll second(or third/fourth, whatever) going for your networking track and bypassing the Windows admin. You'll be better served by having the networking foundation and learning the Windows stuff as you need than trying to do the opposite.

I'm writing my capstone for WGU MS Information Security and Assurance right now. I'd say probably not. The certs you get in the program (CEH, CHFI) really aren't worth the paper they're printed on. [caveat: unless you're doing .gov work, then absolutely get CEH] The rest of the Master's really isn't going to rock your world or anything. I've not really seen any job reqs that have an MS as a requirement. Personally, I went for it because I wanted to do adjunct teaching and my BS is in an unrelated field. I think outside of some kind of really specific need like that, there's really little value in the WGU MS. HOWEVER, if you can get work to foot the bill for a 2nd BS degree, the BS in Cybersecurity is really good and chock full of good, relevant certs.

Solaron
Sep 6, 2007

Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you.


Doug posted:

I'm writing my capstone for WGU MS Information Security and Assurance right now. I'd say probably not. The certs you get in the program (CEH, CHFI) really aren't worth the paper they're printed on. [caveat: unless you're doing .gov work, then absolutely get CEH] The rest of the Master's really isn't going to rock your world or anything. I've not really seen any job reqs that have an MS as a requirement. Personally, I went for it because I wanted to do adjunct teaching and my BS is in an unrelated field. I think outside of some kind of really specific need like that, there's really little value in the WGU MS. HOWEVER, if you can get work to foot the bill for a 2nd BS degree, the BS in Cybersecurity is really good and chock full of good, relevant certs.

I hadn't even looked at the BS - I'd assumed the certs and skills would be similar. That's a significant difference, and I definitely agree that the certs are a lot more inline with what I'm looking for. I'm fairly certain I can get work to foot the bill for a second BS since it's directly related to my job title.

What has your experience been with WGU? And the training/education is quality?

I'm married, have a house full of kids (bio and foster) and a full-time job so I want to make sure I wouldn't drown under the workload or something. My last experience with college was a while ago now and WGU seems to have a different setup.

Judge Schnoopy
Nov 2, 2005

dont even TRY it, pal

I'm right there with you. 3 kids, full time job that's extremely busy, and I've got 4 courses left of WGU.

The quality is good enough that it doesn't feel like busywork. At least with the super easy poo poo (business management courses, I'm looking at you) you can finish really quickly and get them out of the way instead of sitting there for a whole loving semester.

It's a great price, the certs will help you get raises or land jobs before you even finish school, and at the end you get a bachelors to top it off. I haven't found a downside to it yet.

Ahdinko
Oct 27, 2007

WHAT A LOVELY DAY


For the first 7-8 years of my IT career, I tried my best to do everything at once while I figured out what was more interesting. Whilst I worked in IT I did MCDST -> MCSA, and then CCENT -> CCNA. I stayed like that for a couple years and figured out I liked networking more so went and did my CCNP and am now working towards my CCIE. I regret nothing.

Also echoing milk milk lemonade's words, if I do a job search within 100 miles of my home for mcsa or mcse, it returns 124 jobs, if I do a search for ccna or ccnp, it returns 264 jobs. Based on my previous experience of IT, server guys normally outnumber network guys, so either the server market has shrunk recently, or the networking jobs are on the job sites for longer because they're finding them harder to fill.

Ahdinko fucked around with this message at 16:59 on May 17, 2017

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Ahdinko posted:

or the networking jobs are on the job sites for longer because they're finding them harder to fill.

It's this one.

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Solaron posted:

I hadn't even looked at the BS - I'd assumed the certs and skills would be similar. That's a significant difference, and I definitely agree that the certs are a lot more inline with what I'm looking for. I'm fairly certain I can get work to foot the bill for a second BS since it's directly related to my job title.

What has your experience been with WGU? And the training/education is quality?

I'm married, have a house full of kids (bio and foster) and a full-time job so I want to make sure I wouldn't drown under the workload or something. My last experience with college was a while ago now and WGU seems to have a different setup.

As a counterpoint, a lot of brick and mortar universities offer online degrees now that are more loosely structured and allow a bit more flexibility for working professionals.

Re: Networking jobs:

It's pretty much impossible to find people to fill SDN consulting positions. It's three times as impossible to find security engineer consultants. $180-200k with additional compensation for mid-senior to senior level people is becoming pretty common; add more if you've got a CCIE or some other interesting stuff that sets you apart.

psydude fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 17, 2017

Judge Schnoopy
Nov 2, 2005

dont even TRY it, pal

Counterpoint to that, wgu is commonly less than half the cost of brick and mortar online degrees.

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Judge Schnoopy posted:

Counterpoint to that, wgu is commonly less than half the cost of brick and mortar online degrees.

Correct. I think WGU is a great option for people pursuing a first undergrad degree since it's regionally accredited and is non-profit. With a master's the question becomes:

1) What am I trying to get out of it?
2) What do I want to do with it?

I'm not trying to knock WGU, but let's be real: seeing a master's from the University of Michigan or Penn State is going to raise a hiring manager's eyebrows a lot more than WGU.

Judge Schnoopy
Nov 2, 2005

dont even TRY it, pal

Oh absolutely, I forgot we were talking about a masters degree. Masters is where degree recognition and prestige really comes into play and paying more gets you more.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006



Solaron posted:

I hadn't even looked at the BS - I'd assumed the certs and skills would be similar. That's a significant difference, and I definitely agree that the certs are a lot more inline with what I'm looking for. I'm fairly certain I can get work to foot the bill for a second BS since it's directly related to my job title.

What has your experience been with WGU? And the training/education is quality?

I'm married, have a house full of kids (bio and foster) and a full-time job so I want to make sure I wouldn't drown under the workload or something. My last experience with college was a while ago now and WGU seems to have a different setup.

The BS in Cyber Security and Information Assurance was just announced a few weeks ago and isn't open for enrollment yet. I think they're looking at a June time frame.
I don't think anyone has seen the course material on that particular program yet.

Vadun
Mar 9, 2011

I'm hungrier than a green snake in a sugar cane field.



psydude posted:

It's three times as impossible to find security engineer consultants. $180-200k with additional compensation for mid-senior to senior level people is becoming pretty common; add more if you've got a CCIE or some other interesting stuff that sets you apart.

I'm now a senior security consulting engineer and I only have 2 CCNAs. This field is ridiculous (in a good way)

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

FCKGW posted:

The BS in Cyber Security and Information Assurance was just announced a few weeks ago and isn't open for enrollment yet. I think they're looking at a June time frame.
I don't think anyone has seen the course material on that particular program yet.

Huh, I wonder if I should look into transferring from the other BS IT - Security.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006



AlternateAccount posted:

Huh, I wonder if I should look into transferring from the other BS IT - Security.

There's a few people that are looking at doing just that but I'm probably going to wait until we get some people who have made it through the program.

Sefal
Nov 8, 2011


Fun Shoe

My old coworkers and boss told me to focus 1st on the Microsoft exams and then go for either Citrix or Vmware certs. When I told them I wanted to go for the CCNA cert. they said it shouldn't be a priority for me. they did agree that it would be valuable but they recommended me to 1st specialize myself.
That sounded reasonable to me. Are they right?

MCSE is done. New work place is using Ansible. Thinking of looking into that myself now.
My biggest pitfall is wanting too much. So i'm just trying to do one thing at time and focus that. But there is just too much out there.

Crosby B. Alfred
May 20, 2006


milk milk lemonade posted:

Security and networking are big moneymakers and they're going to keep growing. Traditional Windows sysadminning is not. Unless your goal is to work at a smaller company as 'the guy', you are going to have a tougher time getting a legit high-level Windows sysadmin position as time marches forward and the need for bodies keeps going down and there's an already deep labor pool for that stuff.

I agree Security and Networking are growing it's just that with the I think you'll start to see Networking shrinking especially for smaller businesses where there's isn't a reason to keep servers On-Premise.

It's true that typical Windows Server is somewhat declining buts there's such a enormous existing footprint there's plenty of work (and money) with Active Directory, Exchange, SharePoint, Hyper-V and of course all the Cloud variants.

Ahdinko
Oct 27, 2007

WHAT A LOVELY DAY


Im not sure the cloud will shrink networking. As you move to the cloud, WAN connectivity gets more and more important, and people are moving away from POTS based pbxs and moving to cloud IP PBXs. Even if you dont have a single server on site, you still need a good network for your poo poo to work

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Microsoft's entire future business model is built on the idea that they will sell you a service, be it Sharepoint, or Exchange, or AD, or SQL, so I'm not sure that expending a bunch of energy learning how to deploy and manage those products is a great idea, unless you want to go work for Microsoft or another XaaS provider.

Meanwhile security is exploding in importance, and a solid understanding of networking is required to be good at network security.

My advice to anyone who was early career would be to focus on security or data science, or get broad enough that you can be a mythical "full stack engineer." Specializing in being "the windows guy" or the "VMware guy" or the "storage guy" is a long term dead end.

Crosby B. Alfred
May 20, 2006


big money big clit posted:

Microsoft's entire future business model is built on the idea that they will sell you a service, be it Sharepoint, or Exchange, or AD, or SQL, so I'm not sure that expending a bunch of energy learning how to deploy and manage those products is a great idea, unless you want to go work for Microsoft or another XaaS provider.

Meanwhile security is exploding in importance, and a solid understanding of networking is required to be good at network security.

My advice to anyone who was early career would be to focus on security or data science, or get broad enough that you can be a mythical "full stack engineer." Specializing in being "the windows guy" or the "VMware guy" or the "storage guy" is a long term dead end.

It's true that Microsoft is betting everything into PaaS Services but do you think that Azure AD, Exchange, SharePoint, etc. are simply going to manage themselves?

It's true there's going to be squeeze on traditional IT but there's plenty of value in managing the "Microsoft" stack. Just because it's going in the Cloud doesn't mean it'll just run itself.

MrBigglesworth
Mar 26, 2005

Lover of Fuzzy Meatloaf

I have 2 CCNAs one with R&S and the other in Data Center. I'm studying CCNP Switch right now. Wondering if I should add CCNA Security after the other CCNP tests. A few head hunt places have called me and each one asks how much security knowledge I have. Just S+ which recently expired.

Judge Schnoopy
Nov 2, 2005

dont even TRY it, pal

Security is lucrative and universally desired, whether you're a network admin, server admin, manager, or helpdesk lackey. I don't think there's any downside to beefing up security certs.

milk milk lemonade
Jul 29, 2016


Tab8715 posted:

It's true that Microsoft is betting everything into PaaS Services but do you think that Azure AD, Exchange, SharePoint, etc. are simply going to manage themselves?

It's true there's going to be squeeze on traditional IT but there's plenty of value in managing the "Microsoft" stack. Just because it's going in the Cloud doesn't mean it'll just run itself.

SaaS and IaaS are much easier to manage at scale though, and take a lot of work out of the equation.

I wouldn't say it's worthless be up to par on MS offerings, I just don't think it's going to be as valuable and give you a big return compared to network/security.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Tab8715 posted:

It's true that Microsoft is betting everything into PaaS Services but do you think that Azure AD, Exchange, SharePoint, etc. are simply going to manage themselves?

It's true there's going to be squeeze on traditional IT but there's plenty of value in managing the "Microsoft" stack. Just because it's going in the Cloud doesn't mean it'll just run itself.

In my experience, we haven't noticed much of an overall reduced workload by shifting things into the cloud. The type of work we have to do is different, but overall we can sit back and say 'we cut 3 heads because we don't need them anymore'.

The work is still there, just in different areas. We use O365, and Oracle on Demand among others, and I can't think of anyone in my org that has been downsized due to moving to these platforms.


We can argue and guess where the industry is going, but if I've learned one thing, it's you need to keep your skillset up to date with changing technology.

If you were a server tech that didn't embrace virtualization, you probably got left behind. If your a Windows admin and you're not learning powershell, you're going to get left behind, and on and on and on.

Also diversify as much as possible. It's not possible to be an expert in everything, but having a solid foundation of multiple IT disciplines has been helpful to my career. I don't focus on networking in my current job, but I have a solid foundation of how IP networking works. I can setup a Cisco switch or router if needed, understand subnetting, routing protocols, and things like that. I'm not a full time storage guy either, but I'm familiar enough with storage systems I can handle basic administration, understand how they work. You get the point.

anecdotal story: I had a co-worker who unfortunately was downsized during an acquisition. He's the kind of guy that did things the old school way, didn't like to adapt and catch on with new technology. Loved to talk about how great Netware was back in they day. Let his skills pretty much stagnate at the Windows 2003 level. He was out of work for a couple years before he went into a field unrelated to IT.

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go


Judge Schnoopy posted:

Security is lucrative and universally desired, whether you're a network admin, server admin, manager, or helpdesk lackey. I don't think there's any downside to beefing up security certs.
Plus if you go into security you get the thrill of infuriating me with unilateral demands.

Katamari Democracy
Jan 18, 2010

Oh, We understand.
A trip to collect a million votes, yes.
Oh, we know why.
We get the point of rolling up a million


Wedge Regret

I am taking online Networking classes right now and I want to shoot myself. Is there a much better way of explaining the OSI Model than Testout explains it? Theirs is way too confusing to grasp and I think I need extra tutoring on this subject.

E - vvv That is a little better. Thanks for pointing me to that video!

Katamari Democracy fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 24, 2017

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Just go to youtube and search OSI model explained. One of the hundreds of videos will explain it in a way that you get it.

Professor Messer isn't bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh3AYZf4bIk

Crosby B. Alfred
May 20, 2006


May anyone point me to the best resource for...

1. Service Principals; I sort of get it but if feels like it's just a user account that provides a service?
2. Volume Shadow Copy Service; how the gently caress does this black magic work?

CheeseSpawn
Sep 15, 2004



Doctor Rope

Eletriarnation posted:

What were you doing with it last time, and on what kind of hardware? I've had no problem using it for three XR hosts, a traffic generator and a switch but I had a lot of cores to work with. From what I know it's based on KVM so I would expect performance to be similar.

It's was a year and a half ago, but I was trying i think a 4 core mesh with 4 edges mixing in like a 7600 image on basically a standard "power user desktop" and 32GB of RAM. I was just studying IOSXR EDGE implementation. Moving from my previous job that dealt to a new job that doesnt took a toll. I think it ultimately scored in the mid 70s and it was probably 3-4 questions off but failed. Click all that apply questions really trip me.

Solaron
Sep 6, 2007

Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you.


Katamari Democracy posted:

I am taking online Networking classes right now and I want to shoot myself. Is there a much better way of explaining the OSI Model than Testout explains it? Theirs is way too confusing to grasp and I think I need extra tutoring on this subject.

E - vvv That is a little better. Thanks for pointing me to that video!

Agreed on Professor Messer, but just wanted to chime in to let you know that it is a pain for a lot of people, especially early on. Lots of books and trainings don't describe it in ways that make it easy to grasp.

Katamari Democracy
Jan 18, 2010

Oh, We understand.
A trip to collect a million votes, yes.
Oh, we know why.
We get the point of rolling up a million


Wedge Regret

Solaron posted:

Agreed on Professor Messer, but just wanted to chime in to let you know that it is a pain for a lot of people, especially early on. Lots of books and trainings don't describe it in ways that make it easy to grasp.

I had a chat with my online instructor at school yesterday and he somewhat made it easier for me to understand. But basically he told me the same thing.

"KD it's just a hoop you are going to jump through. Everyone has to learn it. Meet one of my Cisco students"!

"Sup"?

: Can you tell me about the OSI Layer model?

...What?

"See"?

Well ok it did not go exactly like that. But basically the Cisco student said he knew and understood the OSI Model, but it's not something I am going to be needing down the road. But I do have to understand and learn it.

The good news is the next two chapters after that I am breezing right through it. It's not that bad.

Katamari Democracy fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 26, 2017

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



I mean, you don't necessarily need to know the OSI model in depth, but if you don't understand layers at least a little you're going to get real confused when people start talking about layer 2 vs layer 3 network devices and layer 4 vs layer 7 firewalls and load balancers and so on.

Katamari Democracy
Jan 18, 2010

Oh, We understand.
A trip to collect a million votes, yes.
Oh, we know why.
We get the point of rolling up a million


Wedge Regret

Yeah I have been writing down which layers do what in an effort of reinforcing what I am trying to learn. It's rough but I will get there.

Starkk
Dec 31, 2008




Just wait until you have to deal with layer 8 problems, ugh.

Katamari Democracy
Jan 18, 2010

Oh, We understand.
A trip to collect a million votes, yes.
Oh, we know why.
We get the point of rolling up a million


Wedge Regret

I thought there were 7 layers? Or is the 8th layer actual people? Is that a joke?

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Katamari Democracy posted:

I thought there were 7 layers? Or is the 8th layer actual people? Is that a joke?

You got the joke.

Judge Schnoopy
Nov 2, 2005

dont even TRY it, pal

Layers 1-7 are a technical challenge but they are solvable. Layer 8 remains an illusive mystery, a constant challenge to sanity and logic.

Layer 0 is also pretty good, in that if you don't have the poo poo you need for your solution you are properly hosed. Layer 0 issues stem from cheap budgets and miscommunicated requirements.

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009



Judge Schnoopy posted:

Layer 8 remains an illusive mystery, a constant challenge to sanity and logic

Layer 1 too, tbh. Spend hours troubleshooting a bizarre intermittent issue. Finally throw up your hands and swap out a cable or optic because nothing else is helping. Issue immediately resolved

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Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011






Judge Schnoopy posted:

Layer 0 is also pretty good, in that if you don't have the poo poo you need for your solution you are properly hosed. Layer 0 issues stem from cheap budgets and miscommunicated requirements.

I've always interpreted layer 0 as being "the laws of physics".

A layer 0 problem is impossible to solve because you cannot change the speed of electrons in copper or the speed of light in glass.

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