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brylcreem
Oct 29, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


YF-23 posted:

It was for Clay Davis.

Of course! Thank you.

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Asbury
Mar 23, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3324 days!


Hair Elf

Just logging in to say that I haven't forgotten that Generation Kill thread I was going to make. Been moving and renovating over the last month, so I haven't had a lot of time. I plan on getting back to things shortly.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.



This thread is a testament to preferring quality over fast turnaround. No rush, I'll excitedly read it when it's ready!

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


Finished a rewatch recently. I honestly think my favorite part of the whole series is Brianna's expression when Donette says she wants to date Stringer because she feels safe with him.

ShaneMacGowansTeeth
May 22, 2007



I think this is it... I think this is how it ends


Some of the cast members went back to Baltimore for a community event brought about in the aftermath of Freddie Gray's death. There's a Vice article about it floating about, but it looks like a lot of the cast either came back or sent taped messages for it. Pretty cool thing for them all to do, especially as the show's been off the air for nearly seven years.

Whiz Palace
Dec 8, 2013


ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

the show's been off the air for nearly seven years.

That's because it has no real successor.

Usually when one show declines, another one rises that hits similar thematic and emotional beats and we flock to it. But The Wire trod a lot of ground I don't think any other TV show will cover for some time.

TASTE THE PAIN!!
May 18, 2004



Dang, this is probably my fourth time watching through the series and I just now caught that Cheese is Randy's father :aaaaa:

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.





Man, I'm watching through Hannibal now and it's insane that it's meant to be set in the same city (I know Hannibal isn't shot there, but still). The only similarity is the death rate, really.

New Yorp New Yorp
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.


Pillbug

TASTE THE PAIN!! posted:

Dang, this is probably my fourth time watching through the series and I just now caught that Cheese is Randy's father :aaaaa:

They share a last name, but there's never any contextual evidence for that.

David Simon did confirm that, though. Which means that Randy is related to Prop Joe, as well.

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

God is a dancer, yeah, I heard on the radio
That she always goes harder
Cause she keepin' you on your toes

YF-23 posted:

It was for Clay Davis.

You need a Day of the Jackal type motherfucker for that.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

That is still one of my favourite things about the whole Stringer arc. He's out there trying to be all business like, getting away from the street and then he finds out that Clay Davis has been playing him and he just snaps right back to the gangbanger mindset.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



MrBling posted:

That is still one of my favourite things about the whole Stringer arc. He's out there trying to be all business like, getting away from the street and then he finds out that Clay Davis has been playing him and he just snaps right back to the gangbanger mindset.

Also realising for the first time that even if Stringer tries to be the "smart one" and get some education to become a businessman, almost everyone near him outsmarts him in some way; Avon for pointing out the money sources to avoid police wire, Slim on how loving stupid idea it is to order a hit on a US senator, Clay Davis swindles his money, Omar sets him up for a trap and finally, even the BP is able to get solid evidence on his connections to the game.

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.



Clay Davis is a State Senator, not US Senator, but it's still a dumb idea. Davis never found out how close he was to getting killed does he? Omar very well may have saved Clay Davis's life by getting to Stringer first.

New Yorp New Yorp
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.


Pillbug

Der Kyhe posted:

Also realising for the first time that even if Stringer tries to be the "smart one" and get some education to become a businessman, almost everyone near him outsmarts him in some way; Avon for pointing out the money sources to avoid police wire, Slim on how loving stupid idea it is to order a hit on a US senator, Clay Davis swindles his money, Omar sets him up for a trap and finally, even the BP is able to get solid evidence on his connections to the game.

I saw it in a slightly different way... not as a sign of stupidity, just as a sign that he's not as much of a "businessman" as he'd like to be. When push comes to shove, he still reacts the same way as a low-level dealer: Angry outbursts and violence.

The SituAsian
Oct 29, 2006

God is a dancer, yeah, I heard on the radio
That she always goes harder
Cause she keepin' you on your toes

Im actually of the opinion that it never could have happened. For "just" a Maryland state senator Davis wielded tremendous power and killing him would have meant the complete destruction of the Barksdales root and stem.
Avon dismissing it so quickly despite the fact that it was the organizations money that was lost tells me he knew this and never would have allowed it.

The SituAsian fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 27, 2015

twerking on the railroad
Jun 23, 2007

Get on my level


Ithaqua posted:

I saw it in a slightly different way... not as a sign of stupidity, just as a sign that he's not as much of a "businessman" as he'd like to be. When push comes to shove, he still reacts the same way as a low-level dealer: Angry outbursts and violence.

I'd say that was a major theme of season 3. It gave us this great scene!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGo5bxWy21g

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



Ithaqua posted:

I saw it in a slightly different way... not as a sign of stupidity, just as a sign that he's not as much of a "businessman" as he'd like to be. When push comes to shove, he still reacts the same way as a low-level dealer: Angry outbursts and violence.

Well obviously not "stupid stupid" but still, less intelligent and cunning than what he lead himself to believe, and that basically caused everything that happened (or almost happened) to him.

Anyway, I completely agree with your take, since he almost immediately ran out of "businessman options", he switched back to street mentality.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

The SituAsian posted:

Im actually of the opinion that it never could have happened. For "just" a Maryland state senator Davis wielded tremendous power and killing him would have meant the complete destruction of the Barksdales root and stem.
Avon dismissing it so quickly despite the fact that it was the organizations money that was lost tells me he knew this and never would have allowed it.

Stringer was reaching beyond Avon to hire out hitters, he didn't care about what Avon said or wanted. Stringer felt played (because he was) and he wanted to show the business world that you don't play a guy like Stringer Bell. He didn't really appear to think much beyond the immediate revenge and certainly didn't think about the repercussions of what he was doing.

bucketybuck
Apr 8, 2012


Der Kyhe posted:

Well obviously not "stupid stupid" but still, less intelligent and cunning than what he lead himself to believe

I always hold this scene up as the ultimate example of Stringer being nowhere near as smart as he thought he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkLuncXw-P4

Basically he's smugly selling his mobile phone stocks right before the massive mobile phone boom of the 2000's, patting himself on the back and acting clever in front of the lackeys all the while making a horrible business decision!

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

I just started over again tonight, my excuse this time is the new HD transfer.

Anyway what are some theories about what the gently caress Prezbo could have really been up to when he shot his car up and called it in as a sniper attack? I'm thinking he was drunk and shot his car up for fun, then thought he could make it go away by calling in a bogus story?

shaszoor
Jun 15, 2009


I forget if it is stated outright, but I think it was a matter of being unhappy with being a cop and wanting to do something that would get him fired. His father-in-law "protected" him and he stated in the force.

Flight Bisque
Feb 23, 2008

There is, surprisingly, always hope.

Der Kyhe posted:

Also realising for the first time that even if Stringer tries to be the "smart one" and get some education to become a businessman, almost everyone near him outsmarts him in some way; Avon for pointing out the money sources to avoid police wire, Slim on how loving stupid idea it is to order a hit on a US senator, Clay Davis swindles his money, Omar sets him up for a trap and finally, even the BP is able to get solid evidence on his connections to the game.

Stringer Bell is the personification of a 40 degree day.

LloydDobler
Oct 15, 2005

You shared it with a dick.



Der Kyhe posted:

Well obviously not "stupid stupid" but still, less intelligent and cunning than what he lead himself to believe, and that basically caused everything that happened (or almost happened) to him.

Anyway, I completely agree with your take, since he almost immediately ran out of "businessman options", he switched back to street mentality.

The word you're looking for is na´ve. He was a total newbie to that world of power and while he wanted to be a player, he was just a sucker to the real power people like Clay Davis. On the street people sneak up on you with a gun. In that world they gently caress you over looking you right in the eye with a handshake and a great big smile.

New Yorp New Yorp
Jul 18, 2003

Only in Kenya.


Pillbug

LloydDobler posted:

In that world they gently caress you over looking you right in the eye with a handshake and a great big smile.

Which comes up directly with Carcetti / Clay Davis during the fight for the democratic nomination. Clay Davis asks for and receives $20,000 to not endorse Royce, does so anyway, and when confronted later laughs and says "I could have taken you for twice as much, I was going easy on you!"

Ali Alkali
Apr 23, 2008


Btw if anyone is interested, this new David Simon miniseries seems to be premiering on sunday.

Show me a Hero

team overhead smash
Sep 2, 2006

Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

"Clarke Peters as Robert Mayhawk, neighborhood consultant"

Yessssssss

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


bucketybuck posted:

I always hold this scene up as the ultimate example of Stringer being nowhere near as smart as he thought he was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkLuncXw-P4

Basically he's smugly selling his mobile phone stocks right before the massive mobile phone boom of the 2000's, patting himself on the back and acting clever in front of the lackeys all the while making a horrible business decision!

I can't stand this scene. It's one of the rare moments (like the chess scene) where they really overreach and it becomes ham fisted. They're trying to point out how he's using his street smarts and observation to adjust his stock portfolio, which is a thing his lackeys would never even think to possess.

It's not a dumb business decision because it came before a boom (the writers could hardly have known that), it's a bad decision (and bad writing) because no competent businessman would ever buy or sell stocks based on the lone observation of what a single ghetto kid was doing with his phones. And no, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to think he was making a bad decision.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS


freebooter posted:

I can't stand this scene. It's one of the rare moments (like the chess scene) where they really overreach and it becomes ham fisted. They're trying to point out how he's using his street smarts and observation to adjust his stock portfolio, which is a thing his lackeys would never even think to possess.

It's not a dumb business decision because it came before a boom (the writers could hardly have known that), it's a bad decision (and bad writing) because no competent businessman would ever buy or sell stocks based on the lone observation of what a single ghetto kid was doing with his phones. And no, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to think he was making a bad decision.

Yeah I agree - I like the chess scene and still don't think this one works. They really went overboard with the "Stringer is learning economics/business" thing - as if he's going to learn about running a modern business from reading that copy of "The Wealth of Nations" in his apartment. It felt like telling, not showing. It was much better when they actually showed him applying something he learned successfully, like changing the name of his product and having different crews pretend to compete.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



freebooter posted:

...no competent businessman would ever buy or sell stocks based on the lone observation of what a single ghetto kid was doing with his phones...

Isn't this the exact point? Stringer is not a businessman, and in no way a competent one. He just plays one with the Barksdale money and acts as what he believes businessman are doing, and since he doesn't take advice from Levy, he is more or less swindled by every convincing white collar crook he runs into.

The same theme appears in the apartment raid-scene, where Bell's house is filled with tacky and expensive businessman poo poo, combined with the "classical" leadership/businessman literature.

He has no idea, he just tries to impress his soldiers and acts like the businessmen he has seen, without any critical thought or idea on what he is doing.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Yea, the meaninglessness of Stringer's business studies is the whole point. In the phone stocks scene he tells the other guys that its market saturation, and then he has this smug look on his face when they don't understand the term. He feels like he's learned some secret that only rich people know, and he's the only guy in his world that has it, so he's got some sort of advantage. In reality, market saturation is a very simple concept that the other Barksdale guys could have easily understood if it were explained to them, Stringer just knows the term for it because he's been taking classes. He's not really much smarter than any other random Barksdale crew member but he's convinced himself hes a mastermind.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS


Der Kyhe posted:

Isn't this the exact point? Stringer is not a businessman, and in no way a competent one. He just plays one with the Barksdale money and acts as what he believes businessman are doing, and since he doesn't take advice from Levy, he is more or less swindled by every convincing white collar crook he runs into.
I think that's overfitting - I think the scene was written just to show the viewer that he is studying and learning about business and doing things like trading stocks with a broker. I doubt that it was written as a "bad" decision on purpose. I could be wrong but that's my impression.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



BTW if you pay close attention to the scene where they come up with the idea of several brand names and fake competition, it is Bodie who comes up with the actual implementable ideas, Stringer is more or less just parroting the things said on the lectures.

Well, OK it was Stringers idea in the first place to talk about that stuff. Also I guess that the New Day Co-op was Stringer's idea but how much of that was Prop Joe's influence is never talked about in detail. So overall, I guess he *did* learn something, but still was far away from being competent.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Stringer learned the concepts from the books and classes, but the part that he failed at was the part that is the most important, applying those concepts to real-world business. Something like the Co-op was doomed to fail from the beginning because there was always going to be a Marlo to ruin it. Stringer wanted to apply these concepts to the Game like it was any other business venture, and he didn't take into account that it has its own rules.

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


freebooter posted:

I can't stand this scene. It's one of the rare moments (like the chess scene) where they really overreach and it becomes ham fisted. They're trying to point out how he's using his street smarts and observation to adjust his stock portfolio, which is a thing his lackeys would never even think to possess.

It's not a dumb business decision because it came before a boom (the writers could hardly have known that), it's a bad decision (and bad writing) because no competent businessman would ever buy or sell stocks based on the lone observation of what a single ghetto kid was doing with his phones. And no, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to think he was making a bad decision.

A central arc of the show is that, you can wear a suit and have a bit of knowledge or a bit of luck, but the game will always spit on your pretensions in the end. You weren't necessarily supposed to think it was a bad decision, financially, but the show was going out of its way to paint Stringer as a pretender to another world. That "no competent businessman" would act that way was the point. You're blaming the writers for missing a target that they weren't aiming for.

Stringer selling phone stocks and ordering a hit on Clay are two sides of the same coin - maybe he accepts what he is, maybe he doesn't, maybe he lies to himself about it, but regardless, if you're from the street then the street is all you know.

Poot walked away and Cutty didn't take the shot, but it's impossible to look at where they ended up and see them as anything more than products of the game. Even if you have some say on what ending you get, you don't get to choose the world you belong to.

I do agree on the chess scene though. It's a pretty glaring example of a conversation that no ghetto kids would ever have, but that college-educated writers think would be really neat if they did.

tirinal fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Aug 14, 2015

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

tirinal posted:

I do agree on the chess scene though. It's a pretty glaring example of a conversation that no ghetto kids would ever have but that college-educated writers really wish they would.

I think that scene would have fit better a little further into the season, where you can see that D is having doubts about the Game and how long he can handle that life. Instead they put it right at the beginning where it seems a little weird that he'd be saying stuff about how pawns never last long and how the king stay the king.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich


Basebf555 posted:

He's not really much smarter than any other random Barksdale crew member but he's convinced himself hes a mastermind.

stringer is smarter, that's why he's at the top of the organization. the problem is that he's prone to believing he's smarter than he really is (many smart people do this) and he's so hooked into the idea of being a business mogul that he spends more time presenting as a mogul than actually being one

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Popular Thug Drink posted:

stringer is smarter, that's why he's at the top of the organization. the problem is that he's prone to believing he's smarter than he really is (many smart people do this) and he's so hooked into the idea of being a business mogul that he spends more time presenting as a mogul than actually being one

He grew up being best friends with Avon, that's why he's at the top of the organization. He's able to appear smarter than the others because he's Avon's go between, the majority of the actual knowledge/wisdom and good ideas come from Avon. Most of Stringers ideas are poo poo.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



Popular Thug Drink posted:

stringer is smarter, that's why he's at the top of the organization. the problem is that he's prone to believing he's smarter than he really is (many smart people do this) and he's so hooked into the idea of being a business mogul that he spends more time presenting as a mogul than actually being one

Stringer has the resources to play the "smart guy" even when he clearly isn't one. Bodie, Avon and Slim are the actually smart ones.

Edit: Bodie clearly understands the game and is actually very reasonable character who got killed because of unfortunate chain of events. Avon is clearly on top of his game and would have stayed there without BPD focusing on him and Slim is one of the soldiers who ends up running an outfit because he is smart enough to actually select his battles and allies.

Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Aug 14, 2015

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!




I would say stringer is pretty smart, in the sense that he is perceptive at least. He knows he's got to pacify the game and turn it into business because it's the bodies that makes the police notice enough to go into full alert like they did with Avon. He knows that because it is ultimately about selling poo poo that knowing how to run it as a business is a benefit. He knows that dirty money is bad for you and can get you in trouble so he tries to use his means to shift to legitimate income sources. He is bad at the actual business part, but that doesn't mean he's dumb, or "ultimately just some ghetto guy". Unlike pretty much every other drug dealer, excepting prop joe, he has a vision, one which breaks from the confines of the ghetto. That's big, even if his other flaws mean that his attempts ultimately end in failure. And I would argue that even Prop Joe never thought bigger than just his slice of the Baltimore drug trade as the leader of the co-op.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



I think of Stringer as a first year College student - he's getting ideas explained to him he never considered/was able to articulate before and gets a little over-enthusiastic about thinking he now has all the answers. Like most College students, another couple of years of study and learning and he would have quickly figured out how little he doesn't know (and that this is okay, the pursuit of more knowledge/bettering yourself is one of the finest things any human being can do) and become more open to considering alternative points of view without eagerly going all in on a concept.

One of my favorite jokes from the show is that Stringer is so proud in his Community College class when he gets a A- on one of his assignments :allears:

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