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chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


When Kima and McNulty first talk with Omar, he tells them that "Bird dropped the working man." Jimmy asks who Bird is, and Omar says "Your snitch can tell you that. poo poo, Bubs knows who Bird is."

I like this exchange, as it shows how Omar pays attention to everything. It would never occur to Avon that a dope fiend could take him down, and it would never occur to Omar to ignore that hop head.

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escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


It's also an interesting scene in that Omar states he won't snitch because it rubs him the wrong way, but then does a complete 180 after Brandon's horrible death.

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



escape artist posted:

It's also an interesting scene in that Omar states he won't snitch because it rubs him the wrong way, but then does a complete 180 after Brandon's horrible death.

He also wanted to stay and hear Bird getting beat down, so yeah, he'll give Bunk info for that privilege.

Lugaloco
Jun 29, 2011


Plus that's the only time Omar swears. At least as far as I can recall.

grading essays nude
Oct 24, 2009

so why dont we
put him into a canan
and shoot him into the trolls base where
ever it is and let him kill all of them. its
so perfect that it can't go wrong.

i think its the best plan i
have ever heard in my life

Always amuses me how Omar seems to be the only one on the street who knows who's snitching and how to spot the cops when they're running surveillance (at least until Marlo figures it out in S5). His first episode might have been where he figured out Bubs was a snitch - he sees Sydnor and Bubs talking, then the police van driving away and laughs. And for whatever reason none of the other dealers ever realize this about Bubs through four seasons.

In fact in an alternate life I think Omar might have made a hell of a detective. For season 4 he basically is the Major Crimes Unit.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


geeves posted:

He also wanted to stay and hear Bird getting beat down, so yeah, he'll give Bunk info for that privilege.

Well, remember he also wears a wire to meet with String later in the season.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



cletepurcel posted:

And for whatever reason none of the other dealers ever realize this about Bubs through four seasons.

Think how many burned out drug addicts the dealers see for 10-15 seconds at a time in a day, all blurring together, coming in and out stumbling around in similar looking clothes, heads down, the dealers mostly paying attention to the money they've been given etc.

Omar has the benefit of being able to stand back and take in the big picture.

Schenck v. U.S.
Sep 8, 2010


Omar also pays more attention to street people because he has his own stable of snitches. I can't remember which episode in S1, but at one point Avon and Stringer are discussing how to track Omar down and get at him, and Stringer explains how every time Omar takes down a stash he goes around handing out free vials like Robin Hood. Consequently, just as soon as Barksdale soldiers go on the hunt, Omar will know about it. In the scene where the soldiers find and burn his van, Omar is watching them from a shooting gallery across the street the whole time.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


Not to mention, his own survival is contingent on him always paying extra-careful attention to the drug game, considering how many enemies he has.

Actually I think he's watching his van burn from that one fiend's house, while holding her baby. But the point remains.

chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


escape artist posted:

It's also an interesting scene in that Omar states he won't snitch because it rubs him the wrong way, but then does a complete 180 after Brandon's horrible death.

I think that if they hadn't tortured Brandon, he wouldn't have snitched. When in the office with Kima and McNulty he says something to that effect, if I'm not mistaken: that getting killed is a part of the game, but they didn't have to do Brandon that way.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


chesh posted:

I think that if they hadn't tortured Brandon, he wouldn't have snitched. When in the office with Kima and McNulty he says something to that effect, if I'm not mistaken: that getting killed is a part of the game, but they didn't have to do Brandon that way.

Oh I agree fully. And I'm not denouncing Omar for "snitching" at all. He was going to use any approach available to hurt Avon and associates.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

Re-watching this series for the 2nd time. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Season 2, and it was just as good this time around. Frank Sobotka is a great character - the scene where he talks to Ziggy from jail is just heartbreaking. That he can still look at his son and tell him he's "a Sobotka" is really a touching moment when you consider how easy it would have been for Frank to disown his son or be sanctimonious.

Also, Bunny Colvin and Dennis Wise are my two favorites, for similar reasons I guess. The actor that plays Colvin is SO good at being a warm, grandfatherly guy who can flip a switch and be a hardass in about 1 second. When the show reveals that McNulty was once one of Colvin's troopers I can't help but grin like an idiot watching them laugh about old times and "Bushytop". When Rawls and Burrell are drilling Colvin at his final COMStat meeting and Bunny goes "get on with it motherfucker" I get goosebumps every time. SUCH a great moment of total honesty in a room bathed in bullshit - and probably the only time anyone stands up to Rawls directly in the whole series. Someone said earlier that Bubs is really the only character with a "good" ending but I have to disagree and say that Dennis is the only character with a truly positive ending. As much as a I want to think Bubs stayed on the straight and narrow, I'm much more confident that Cutty stayed legit and clean. Makes me feel great just thinking about it.

As an aside, Burrell calling Johns Hopkins and loving Bunny over is, in my opinion, one of the coldest and most truly evil things done in the series. I mean, it's just 100% pure petty revenge - Burrell gets nothing out of it at all. Most if not all of the heinous poo poo done in the show is in pursuit of profit or to protect one's interests (not that it excuses them) but that one act is unfiltered spite.

Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 14, 2013

SubponticatePoster
Aug 9, 2004

Every day takes figurin' out all over again how to fuckin' live.


Slippery Tilde

escape artist posted:

Not to mention, his own survival is contingent on him always paying extra-careful attention to the drug game, considering how many enemies he has.
He doesn't really pay attention to Kenard, and look how that turned out.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


SubponticatePoster posted:

He doesn't really pay attention to Kenard, and look how that turned out.

Actually they deliberately focused on him sizing up Kenard, and dismissing him as a non-threat.

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

Just asking questions


Unzip and Attack posted:

"get on with it motherfucker"

Note how this is also Stringer's last words.

oxford_town
Aug 6, 2009


Orange Devil posted:

Note how this is also Stringer's last words.

And both characters are cut off before they can finish the line.

Randomly Specific
Sep 22, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

And both are punished for trying to break the game.

It's something I hadn't really connected. Honestly, the Stringer/Bunny connection always felt a bit out of place for me, like it existed to fill a spot. But thinking on the parallels, and there's a bit there. Both of them tried to civilize the game, from the opposite angles.

Also, the scene where Bodie goes to Stringer after getting picked up outside of Hamsterdam is bleakly funny.

"Well you shouldn't sell drugs."

Chamberk
Jan 11, 2004

when there is nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire


I'm almost at the end of season 4 and goddamn, it's a kick in the teeth. Poor snitchin' Randy.

Unzip and Attack
Mar 3, 2008

USPOL May

It's an interesting point about Stringer trying to "reform the game" but I have to disagree. Stringer was often the voice of caution against violence with Avon, but he also wanted to straight up murder a sitting State Senator because he felt he had been ripped off, and he had D murdered so he could sleep with his girlfriend (though he rationalized it as D being a weak link to everyone else). Stringer was never a legit businessman despite how hard he may have tried to appear that way. Pretty much every scene involving String's legit businesses ended up with him losing his temper and yelling at his hired help or his business partners. The scene in season 2 where D talks about The Great Gatsby is, in my opinion, a direct reference to Stringer trying to pretend to be something he's not. When McNulty finally gets into String's apartment he finds these pristine books, one of which is Wealth of Nations. My guess is that String never read that book. String's displayed knowledge of economics was never insightful - it was always shallow and I think the show was trying to demonstrate that he was misguided. Taking a few basic econ courses at a Community College doesn't make a person become Steve Jobs. String only wanted to be a businessman until he faced obstacles - then he showed his true colors.

Sarkozymandias
May 25, 2010

THAT'S SYOUS D'RAVEN



Well he was also getting to the end of his rope trying to go legit in the first place, only to realize that even once he had the money to do so, the entire game was rigged from the start and he would never be allowed. He was doomed from the start for simply being born on the wrong side of the tracks and when he realized that he... may have overreacted. His "true" understanding of economics doesn't really matter. People who don't know poo poo about economics get to be rich when they're born white enough and bullshit white enough. He managed to make a pretty successful drug empire before being gradually undone by a more efficient sociopath.

Or rather a series of more efficient sociopaths.

Alec Bald Snatch
Sep 12, 2012

by exmarx


String definitely tried to change how things were done- not beefing over turf, sharing product, the New Day co-op, etc. He definitely wasn't the first person to try and go legit, and even Clay Davis had a longtime scam set up to bilk drug kingpins out of their laundered money. The community college business classes and freshman b-school understanding of markets was the show's way of pointing out he'd never escape his background. Surely someone relatively intelligent and wealthy as Stringer could've left the day-to-day to Avon while taking courses from UMUC or something instead of what was essentially night school. Something like that was so far beyond his horizons though- he figured it would be good enough to be seen as a legit businessman downtown with a few adult extension classes under his belt.


Sarkozymandias posted:

Well he was also getting to the end of his rope trying to go legit in the first place, only to realize that even once he had the money to do so, the entire game was rigged from the start and he would never be allowed. He was doomed from the start for simply being born on the wrong side of the tracks and when he realized that he... may have overreacted. His "true" understanding of economics doesn't really matter. People who don't know poo poo about economics get to be rich when they're born white enough and bullshit white enough. He managed to make a pretty successful drug empire before being gradually undone by a more efficient sociopath.

Or rather a series of more efficient sociopaths.

His lack of background in the legit world precluded him from knowing that even guys like Andy Krawczyk ran their own game. His overreaction came from being wholly unprepared for how to deal with that.

Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 14, 2013

Etherwind
Apr 22, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 947 days!


Soiled Meat

I think I might have cracked the symbolism behind the trains.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(1971_film)

Every time trains show up - whether visually or with the sound of their horns - it's when a character is undergoing a moment of near-epiphany and either accepting or turning away. The train isn't symbolic of the institution, unable to deviate, or of inevitability, able only to crush everything in its path, but of enlightenment: of reform, and how slowly the realisation comes on.

"Slow train coming," is a metaphor for how slowly people realise both the situation they're trapped in and their own foibles. The train shouts at them with its horn, desperately trying to get a message across when they're engaged on some blind or self-destructive action, and either they realise (when it's too late) or they continue on without heed. See Stringer Bell's realisation and acceptance at his death versus Jimmy McNulty at the start of the series, pissing in the face of the train and its message.

And when Brother Mouzone shows back up and town, and talks about what the trains mean? He's come having figured out who set him up and why.

Edit: and at a deeper level, it's about how slowly society realises its problems and engages in reform. Baltimore and American society are Jimmy NcNulty, pissing in the face of the message. See politicians saying they love The Wire.

Etherwind fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jan 14, 2013

geeves
Sep 16, 2004



Etherwind posted:

I think I might have cracked the symbolism behind the trains.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(1971_film)

Every time trains show up - whether visually or with the sound of their horns - it's when a character is undergoing a moment of near-epiphany and either accepting or turning away. The train isn't symbolic of the institution, unable to deviate, or of inevitability, able only to crush everything in its path, but of enlightenment: of reform, and how slowly the realisation comes on.

"Slow train coming," is a metaphor for how slowly people realise both the situation they're trapped in and their own foibles. The train shouts at them with its horn, desperately trying to get a message across when they're engaged on some blind or self-destructive action, and either they realise (when it's too late) or they continue on without heed. See Stringer Bell's realisation and acceptance at his death versus Jimmy McNulty at the start of the series, pissing in the face of the train and its message.

And when Brother Mouzone shows back up and town, and talks about what the trains mean? He's come having figured out who set him up and why.

Edit: and at a deeper level, it's about how slowly society realises its problems and engages in reform. Baltimore and American society are Jimmy NcNulty, pissing in the face of the message. See politicians saying they love The Wire.

I like this reasoning of it. But to go along with your deeper level thought, it's also the opposite at the same time. Corruption and problems with the systems aren't just introduced overnight and accepted. They also happen over a long term with knee-jerk reactions here and there to speed things up. And not just corruption, but things that would be best described as 'nanny-state / think of the children' type systems or rules that are in place - outlawed toys, etc (and not the ones because of lead paint) this usually takes place because people want someone to blame instead of taking responsibility of themselves and their offspring.

chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


"Nobody move. I said NOBODY loving MOVE. If you have not been assigned a specific task by a homicide detective, you need to step away from this crime scene. Is there anybody doesn't understand a direct order? If you have not been specifically instructed otherwise, then remove your useless, interfering asses from the area. NOW.

Slow this thing down to a crawl. Give these bastards no chance to gently caress up in any meaningful way."

Beginning of episode 11, and the first time we actually get to see Rawls do his job, and not just be an rear end in a top hat. I'm not really sure why I love this little speech so much, but I do.

Etherwind posted:

I think I might have cracked the symbolism behind the trains.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(1971_film)

Every time trains show up - whether visually or with the sound of their horns - it's when a character is undergoing a moment of near-epiphany and either accepting or turning away. The train isn't symbolic of the institution, unable to deviate, or of inevitability, able only to crush everything in its path, but of enlightenment: of reform, and how slowly the realisation comes on.

"Slow train coming," is a metaphor for how slowly people realise both the situation they're trapped in and their own foibles. The train shouts at them with its horn, desperately trying to get a message across when they're engaged on some blind or self-destructive action, and either they realise (when it's too late) or they continue on without heed. See Stringer Bell's realisation and acceptance at his death versus Jimmy McNulty at the start of the series, pissing in the face of the train and its message.

And when Brother Mouzone shows back up and town, and talks about what the trains mean? He's come having figured out who set him up and why.

Edit: and at a deeper level, it's about how slowly society realises its problems and engages in reform. Baltimore and American society are Jimmy NcNulty, pissing in the face of the message. See politicians saying they love The Wire.

Oooo, good interpretation.

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


That is a good interpretation, and while I'm not disagreeing with it, I wonder-- how does it fit in with Kima being shot? That is the first time we see the train stopped on the tracks.


Also, I love Rawls in Episode 11. From that speech he gives, to the one he gives Jimmy, to the brief moment when he flips the street sign (indicating that he knows his city and was probably an above average street cop before he decided to climb the career ladder.)

escape artist fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jan 15, 2013

Etherwind
Apr 22, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 947 days!


Soiled Meat

Well, first up, I've only really thought of this in terms of times when the horn is played. Sometimes a train is just a train.

That said, that's the first time anyone realises just how hosed up the whole situation is and what the consequences are. Specifically, McNulty. It immediately follows McNulty just sitting and blaming himself. It's a moment when he stops dead and goes "Oh Christ, what have I done?" Thus the train stops. He's had a revelation, and sees the full horror of the path he's on and what it costs other people.

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Everything stops when Kima gets shot. The cops stop and go to the hospital, the streets stop and go "holy poo poo we are so screwed."

Everybody stops when Kima gets shot, even the trains.

chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


escape artist posted:

That is a good interpretation, and while I'm not disagreeing with it, I wonder-- how does it fit in with Kima being shot? That is the first time we see the train stopped on the tracks.


Also, I love Rawls in Episode 11. From that speech he gives, to the one he gives Jimmy, to the brief moment when he flips the street sign (indicating that he knows his city and was probably an above average street cop before he decided to climb the career ladder.)

Since it was discussed previously, I went ahead and transcribed it. It'll save you on your recap:

"Listen to me, you gently caress. You did a lot of poo poo here. You played a lot of loving cards and you made a lot of loving people do a lot of loving things they didn't want to do. This is true. We both know this is true. You, McNulty, are a gaping rear end in a top hat. We both know this. gently caress if everyone in CID doesn't know. But gently caress if I'm going to stand here and say you did a single loving thing to get a police shot. You did not do this, you loving hear me? This is not on you. No it isn't, rear end in a top hat. Believe it or not everything isn't loving about you. And the motherfucking saying this? He hates your guts, McNulty. So you know if this was on you, I'd be the son-of-a-bitch to say so."

Etherwind
Apr 22, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 947 days!


Soiled Meat

In context, the thesis would be that the train stops because everyone's had a revelation and accepted it. Different revelations for different people. I think it's particularly relevant that it follows our first shot of McNulty's reaction, when he's questioning himself. The train is silent because it doesn't need to tell him anything right then. It doesn't even have to be in the same scene.

grading essays nude
Oct 24, 2009

so why dont we
put him into a canan
and shoot him into the trolls base where
ever it is and let him kill all of them. its
so perfect that it can't go wrong.

i think its the best plan i
have ever heard in my life

My favorite reaction is Lester's. He finally gets Herc and Carver to stop whining about the surveillance jobs when he tells them it's the only way to get back at who shot Kima.

chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


Man, you know it's bad when you seriously consider calling in sick so you can stay up and rewatch more episodes of The Wire.

3spades
Mar 20, 2003

37! My girlfriend sucked 37 dicks!

Customer: In a row?

cletepurcel posted:

My favorite reaction is Lester's. He finally gets Herc and Carver to stop whining about the surveillance jobs when he tells them it's the only way to get back at who shot Kima.

A little bit later when Lester pulls Little Man's prints from the soda can and presents the evidence to Norris. "It still had a little fizz when we got there". Norris is blown away wondering who Lester is and where has he been hiding.

Randomly Specific
Sep 22, 2012

My keys are somewhere in there.

Unzip and Attack posted:

It's an interesting point about Stringer trying to "reform the game" but I have to disagree. Stringer was often the voice of caution against violence with Avon, but he also wanted to straight up murder a sitting State Senator because he felt he had been ripped off, and he had D murdered so he could sleep with his girlfriend (though he rationalized it as D being a weak link to everyone else). Stringer was never a legit businessman despite how hard he may have tried to appear that way. Pretty much every scene involving String's legit businesses ended up with him losing his temper and yelling at his hired help or his business partners. The scene in season 2 where D talks about The Great Gatsby is, in my opinion, a direct reference to Stringer trying to pretend to be something he's not. When McNulty finally gets into String's apartment he finds these pristine books, one of which is Wealth of Nations. My guess is that String never read that book. String's displayed knowledge of economics was never insightful - it was always shallow and I think the show was trying to demonstrate that he was misguided. Taking a few basic econ courses at a Community College doesn't make a person become Steve Jobs. String only wanted to be a businessman until he faced obstacles - then he showed his true colors.

Stringer and Davis was the class nerd getting played by the prom queen and then seeing her laugh about him as she runs off with the jock king. He was the nice guy and hiked through the snow with her printer and everything. So then he snaps and goes straight to the ladder theory.

Dead on about his apartment, though. The funny part of that is that Jimmy took the Smith book seriously.

Also the katanas are further evidence of Stringer's goony heart.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009
GRANNY RUINING YOUR VIBES? CUT HER ASS OUT OF YOUR LIFE!


FrozenVent posted:

Everything stops when Kima gets shot. The cops stop and go to the hospital, the streets stop and go "holy poo poo we are so screwed."

Everybody stops when Kima gets shot, even the trains.

That's what's made me hate some of the less quality police serials where cops get shot right and left. You don't shoot cops unless you want hell to rain on you.

Crumbletron
Jul 21, 2006



IT'S YOUR BOY JESUS, MANE


DarkCrawler posted:

That's what's made me hate some of the less quality police serials where cops get shot right and left. You don't shoot cops unless you want hell to rain on you.

Avon says as much in jail, too, when he's working out a parole agreement to rat out the guard with the hot shots.

I'm doing this re-watch with my parents, who have gotten accustomed to lovely police procedurals in recent years. They absolutely love this show but it's taken them a while to get used to protagonists who don't get themselves into poo poo all the time. My mom was convinced Beadie would get locked in that can with the dead girls, and I don't blame her because that probably would've been what happened if this was CSI :v:

ShaneMacGowansTeeth
May 22, 2007



I think this is it... I think this is how it ends


Okay, I lied and started season two last night and noticed a couple of things, two technical, one general: 1) When Bodie and Shamrock are driving to Philadelphia, for some reason the audio sounds like it skips "ah come on man you're kill/killing me/me". What's weird is that the same line of dialogue is in the official soundtrack with the same error. Am I just mishearing it? 2) Bodie goes to Philadelphia with considerably less hair than he has when he gets back to Baltimore, which reminds me of an episode of Aussie soap neighbours when one of the actresses left her house in a rage to confront her boyfriend with her hair one way, and in her very next scene appeared with a rather expensive and fashionable haircut. 3) When Nick and Ziggy leave the cafe after getting the number of the can with the dead girls in, there's an absolutely gently caress off huge warship in the dock. It has absolutely no bearing or relevance on the scene, but I just never noticed this ship with the typically huge three barrelled cannon on its deck.

DropsySufferer
Nov 9, 2008

Impractical practicality


Etherwind posted:

I think I might have cracked the symbolism behind the trains...

I'll admit I'm also curious about this and it's been mentioned several times in the thread. Why not ask the series creator directly? I'd send an email myself but frankly I'm not half as articulate as some of you here who would could peak his interest a bit a more.

http://davidsimon.com/contact/

chesh
Apr 19, 2004

That was terrible.


Commentary update: George Pelecanos says the scene where Wallace is murdered is the hardest thing he has ever had to write.

"Thank you for buying the season 1 DVD's. I hope you bought them, and this wasn't shoplifted or downloaded. George, how many points did you get on the DVD's?"
"How many did you get?"
"None. You know what? Shoplift this. Download it."

chesh fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jan 16, 2013

Etherwind
Apr 22, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 947 days!


Soiled Meat

I already emailed him. Will tell you if he replies.

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escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming


What episode has Slim Charles deriding the hitters for breaking the Sunday truce by shooting at Omar's grandmother in church? I just gotta hear that "bonafide colored lady" speech.

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