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I've just completed The Wire. I came into it quite cold - I knew it was critically acclaimed and had almost a religious following, but I knew nothing about it beyond that. I absolutely adored the first three seasons. Definitely the best TV I've ever watched. Seasons 4 and 5 didn't grab me as much because, IMO, the Stanfield organisation material was far weaker than the Barksdale organisation material and the docks. I get Marlo is meant to personify neoliberalism but he and his terminators kind felt out of place in the show (although the conclusion to their arcs was well written). D'Angelo was superb all around. His death really rocked me and I wish he was there till the end of the show I'm definitely watching the show again.
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Jun 27, 2020 23:37
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Rollie Fingers posted:I've just completed The Wire. I came into it quite cold - I knew it was critically acclaimed and had almost a religious following, but I knew nothing about it beyond that. I think this is a pretty common reaction to Marlo's organization and I think it definitely benefits from a rewatch once you get the flavor of what David Simon is doing. But I agree the barksdale crew has more interesting characters overall. For me the most gripping stuff was the kids plotline and Omar in prison was one of the highlights of the show.
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Jun 28, 2020 00:58
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I am interested how you felt about the school plotline and the foursome of Namond, Michael, Randy and Dukie? Season 4 is my absolute favorite season and a large part of that is the kids they brought in and their stories- both the individual plots but also all the school stuff. It still blows my mind they added kids to a show and it somehow got BETTER.
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Jun 28, 2020 01:11
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Unrelated, it took me a couple of rewatches to really enjoy season 2, and to a lesser extent 4, however 4 has grown on me. 5 is still meh.
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Jun 28, 2020 03:43
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Donut is the best part of season 4.
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Jun 28, 2020 04:22
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Donut showing up in that final scene, doing exactly what he started the season doing, is so great 
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Jun 28, 2020 04:28
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Donut is my dude. I love the kid for his personality, but he's also a great foil to the other kids. -Dukie is hosed at first, but you get a glimmer of hope when Prez starts to look after him, but he ends hosed. -Michael starts with certain a nobility to him, especially looking after bug. He keeps it to a certain extent, but becomes a ruthless stick up boy like Omar. -Randy looks like he's going places. You think he might make it out of the hood with his hustles, but the system grinds him up. -Namond looks like he'll get chewed up by the corner, but Bunny takes him under his wing and he's going places. -Kennard is the youngest, and accordingly should be the most innocent, but he becomes a cold hearted killer. -Donut starts off only interested in stealing cars, he continues only being interested in stealing cars, and ends only being interested in stealing cars. He doesn't change at all, but he's still loveable. That's remarkable for a character. Edit: now that I think of it, I posted this before... deoju fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 04:50
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I like Donut because when officer walker breaks Donut's fingers all I think is "wtf he needs those for his day job!"
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Jun 28, 2020 05:00
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I don't see Marlo as representing neoliberalism. I see him as an embodiment of all the principles of the Game. This is the ideal person the streets of Baltimore produces. The Game exists in capitalism so has many of the same features, but reputation is Marlo's ultimate drive. If he was all about predatory neoliberalism he'd be more happy to sell out and escape Baltimore.
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Jun 28, 2020 06:13
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Yeah if anything he represents all the things liberals do not and cannot understand, namely the dynamics of power, and what you can do with a power differential.
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Jun 28, 2020 08:50
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Chas McGill posted:It's been a while but I found myself wondering - are all the detectives more or less the same rank in season 1 or are there differences in seniority within the detective role more subtle than moving onto sergeant, lieutenant etc? yeah and kemba being made Lead over sgt Carver in season 2 is a big deal
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Jun 28, 2020 17:44
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Marlo is the embodiment of ruthless, cutthroat capitalism. I wish I could say that I gleaned this information from watching the show, but it's what Simon said in interviews. He's only interested in one goal, and he has no problem eliminating people who get in his way, even when he kinda likes them (Joe, Michael). (He doesn't eliminate Michael but he tells Chris to do it, even though he doesn't think Michael snitched. Can't take any chances.) His loyalty is only to the end result, money and power.
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Jun 28, 2020 21:01
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how does that mesh with his ending, where he gets basically what stringer (the actual capitalist) wanted and bails on it to go back to the corner? yes he's about the ruthless pursuit of power at the expense of all those around him, but that story's older than capitalism is. reflecting on him, it's interesting that he doesnt explicitly reflect the main theme of the show (imo: the corrupting and exploitative forces inherent in any institution). he cares for his people and they don't get chewed up and spat out because of him (Michael explicitly sets himself apart from marlo's institution and that's why things happen how they do). awesmoe fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 21:19
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awesmoe posted:how does that mesh with his ending, where he gets basically what stringer (the actual capitalist) wanted and bails on it to go back to the corner? Yeah that kind of doesn't make sense to me. Marlo seems to explicitly care about his reputation more than he cares about money, I'm not sure how that squares with the capitalism allegory. Not that I'm accusing Simon of being wrong about his own show, but I guess I just don't quite get it.
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Jun 28, 2020 21:21
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Ainsley McTree posted:Yeah that kind of doesn't make sense to me. Marlo seems to explicitly care about his reputation more than he cares about money, I'm not sure how that squares with the capitalism allegory. fwiw i've only ever seen simon say that the greek explicitly represents capitalism https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2006/12/interviewing-the-man-behind-the-wire.html posted:Slate: Marlo is the only character on the show thus far who seems to be out-and-out bad—almost a sociopath. Avon was cold-blooded, but his friendship with Stringer humanized him. Is this intentional on your part? Or do I just dislike Marlo (even though the actor is brilliant)?
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Jun 28, 2020 21:25
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tbf if I was David Simon and I had an audience with Obama I'd be grabbing him by his suit lapels and screaming that our house was burning down
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Jun 28, 2020 22:15
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awesmoe posted:how does that mesh with his ending, where he gets basically what stringer (the actual capitalist) wanted and bails on it to go back to the corner? I think he does, in the sense that he is the product of the Game's corrupting force. He didn't resist and question as most characters did, he was a perfect student who molded himself to those forces. He's the street side of Rawls and Valchek, people who understand their system and do exactly what it demands of them. Yeah, I think the Greek is pure capitalism, Marlo is the Game.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:30
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Mr. Prokosch posted:I think he does, in the sense that he is the product of the Game's corrupting force. He didn't resist and question as most characters did, he was a perfect student who molded himself to those forces. He's the street side of Rawls and Valchek, people who understand their system and do exactly what it demands of them.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:35
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David Simon is the man who thinks the answer to the problems of the wire is regulating capitalism, so I wouldn't be surprised if he just plain got wrong what capitalism even is.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:36
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Yeah, I just googled and it looks like I misremembered. The Greek is pure capitalism. Marlo, perhaps the pursuit of raw power.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:29
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https://www.theguardian.com/media/organgrinder/2008/dec/01/the-wire-marlo-stanfieldDavid Simon posted:Many see Marlo as the most "evil" being on The Wire. He lacks the humour and profane wisdom of the more popular B'more denizens, but I believe he is key to understanding the show's themes. He is, in effect, the ultimate bureaucrat, one who plays the system without empathy or fear.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:31
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awesmoe posted:how does that mesh with his ending, where he gets basically what stringer (the actual capitalist) wanted and bails on it to go back to the corner? i could confidently state that someone like say nancy pelosi is a "representative of neoliberalism". she's richer than god, about 100 years old, but she just won't loving retire to let someone new come in and give people healthcare. she's already made her nut, it hasn't been about money for her for a long time but about the accumulation and maintenance of power at all costs (and the prestige that comes with it). like marlo's "institution", nancy's is incredibly small and exclusive. they both are loyal to their high command, but if you're not in that little circle, you're nothing** marlo can still take care of his people and not have it be from a place of sentimentality, or resisting the corrupting influences of capitalism. In fact, cynically providing attractive incentives for the people closest to you is precisely what is necessary to maintain such a ruthless and dominating institution. **see: bodie and everyone else who "worked for marlo" but still got arbitrarily walked into a vacant God Hole fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 01:39
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Good comparison.
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Jun 29, 2020 03:00
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escape artist posted:Yeah, I just googled and it looks like I misremembered. The Greek is pure capitalism. Marlo, perhaps the pursuit of raw power. My name is not my name versus my name is my name. Both statements pretty much sum up both characters' approach to the idea of power and what it represents.
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Jun 29, 2020 03:10
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Yo everyone: HidingfromGoro is on Twitter, he posts, and Goons by and large haven't found him yet! https://twitter.com/HidingFromGoro/status/960745369243066368 That's the goon who told us all how prison works and how hosed up it is! Follow this dude now! He is the reason that huge swaths of this website turned left back in '06 or so. His writing and activism certainly changed the course of my life. He's been posting for years and has few followers. What a missed connection the past few years.
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Jun 29, 2020 03:12
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God Hole posted:i could confidently state that someone like say nancy pelosi is a "representative of neoliberalism". just for reference, this is what I'm using as a working definition of neoliberalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Current_usage posted:As a development model, it refers to the rejection of structuralist economics in favor of the Washington Consensus. Ginette Reno posted:My name is not my name versus my name is my name.
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Jun 29, 2020 03:20
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Ginette Reno posted:My name is not my name versus my name is my name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoyq88niVEU
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Jun 30, 2020 00:33
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Rollie Fingers posted:I've just completed The Wire. I came into it quite cold - I knew it was critically acclaimed and had almost a religious following, but I knew nothing about it beyond that. I just finished the final episode too! Finally. Am I the only one who found Season 5 to be incredibly engrossing material? After hearing people say it was hands down the worst season I was expecting more of a betrayal of previous seasons' values. Especially with the slap on the face of Game of Thrones S8 still being so fresh. I was pleasantly surprised, probably because instead of blind-watching and being confused I had the analyses from this thread to help me understand why each detail was significant. I never felt like any detail was wasting my time. I didn't even have a problem with Season 5's main complaints. Sure, Gus is an incredibly frustrating character for being so cowardly. But I enjoyed getting a more detailed look at how a news organization works than I ever had. Maybe it wasn't as detailed as the other institutions explored by The Wire, but it still intertwined with the others in cool ways. I even thought they explained Whiting's motivation just fine in the last scene where Gus just spells it out -- everyone is being cutthroat so they can win an award and bounce to a more prestigious place. Gus and Alma were the opposite way, they saw the value in staying far down the ladder so they didn't have to compromise their principles. Gus utterly failed to back that up and was a pushover, but Alma took it to its natural conclusion and got sent to the boat. I had read so many spoilers. I even knew a little bit that certain characters became "the new" (insert dead character here). But I had no idea it was going to tie the story up so neatly, by coming around full circle. People often say the beginning of The Wire is hard to get into because there's no introduction, no protagonist who is new to the force; you just get dropped right into a system where everybody already knows dozens of other characters, and you're expected to keep up. Sink or swim. Well, the ending of The Wire kind of answers the question that was left hanging open -- how did all these characters get here? We get to see that. It's like Bubbles has a complete backstory now that he didn't have a few minutes before the ending. Same for a couple others. Sydnor becoming the new McNulty was a breathtaking moment because he cannot possibly know how incredibly hosed he is. We had some sense throughout Season 1 that McNulty, when he approached Judge Phelan, had walked into a web of lies bigger than he was, but no perspective for HOW big. By the end of Season 5, though, we see HOW big the serial killer story blew up. How many people lied or compromised their values to save their career from it. Once that happened, there is no fixing the system, but.... if you only see the tip of the iceberg like McNulty or Sydnor did, it appears to them that they can right the wrongs just by taking out one bad actor who's ruining everything. Nope, everybody around you got to where they are on a lie. A lie that involved all sorts of players that the MCE never even knew about, the Narese Campbells and Rupert Bonds of the world. A lie like telling the entire state of Maryland they found the real serial killer, which accepted it and moved on. The whole world is built out of thousands of clever lies constructed by people who came before us. We arrived at the party too late to do anything but try to forensically reconstruct any semblance of objective reality from it. We try to guess how our institutions came to be this way but we only get to untangle a couple of the lies; we'll never have the whole story. Or if we don't try at all, like most people we simply resign to live in total confusion at most everything.
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Jul 1, 2020 09:33
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I think there's a bit of understandable confusion when people say season 5 is the worst season, because that still puts it up above like 90% of all television. It's just that it's the capstone to 4 incredible seasons, and follows what is arguably one of the greatest single seasons of television ever made in season 4. The magic is still there, it's just a little shorter and has a few obvious flaws/problems that stand out mostly because they're so rare in a show like this. Edit: Great take on the unfathomable and unknowable nature of these institutions - even with all the extra context we get given as viewers with privileged access to so many characters and personal moments etc, we're still ourselves only seeing the tip of the iceberg. The characters in the show itself are seeing the tip of the tip. It's part of why I find it so remarkable that the show, in spite of its well-deserved reputation for showcasing blatant corruption and the perils of going up against the behemoth of various institutions, still manages to be a surprisingly optimistic show. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jul 1, 2020 |
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Jul 1, 2020 10:05
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For me, Season 5 was as engaging as 4. Just peak television. Season 2 was actually the one that, after finishing it, made me delay watching any more for several years. I did not like the jarring transition, throwing out so much labor in getting to know so many compelling characters. I shared the common frustration that this deep look into the lives and issues of black people caught in the system was suddenly about something else. But until I came back to the show, little did I know that everyone from Season 1 would matter again and future seasons would return to emphasis on the drug trade. By mid season 3 I was committed to finish. I started reading these summaries. I eventually understood the ambitious goal of showing institutional rot the show was going for. I can't wait to do a first rewatch and see the earlier parts of Season 3 and early Marlo stuff. It's going to go by so much faster the second time, now that I've already read this thread's summaries, which easily take as long to process as the episodes themselves.
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Jul 1, 2020 10:16
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Of course, not all of Season 5 was peak television. Maybe it's more the part that I just watched. For example, there was a definite worst episode: The one where Prop Joe meets his end. I had company over and decided to blind-watch that episode with them for my first time too. That kept me thinking about what kind of experience the episode was creating for a newcomer out of context. Would it have looked interesting even if she had no idea what was going on? Holy hell, that episode did the show no favors as an introduction to The Wire. Every scene of that would have been rendered completely incomprehensibly boring. It would have looked like a bunch of people going to work, doing work stuff, and talking in work jargon. Overly incremental movements to the plot and too many shifts back and forth. There was not a single scene that stood compellingly on its own outside of tons of context from other episodes. The dependence on context was total. Like it was the opposite of a bottle episode.
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Jul 1, 2020 10:47
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I don't know if he put it EXACTLY this way, but I believe David Simon's mindset was basically,"gently caress it, if they want to know what's going on they need to have watched the show, we're not gonna play catch-up for them."
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Jul 1, 2020 11:15
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I had a friend who watched it the first time when HBO was running it free the past few months and I made it abundantly clear that season 2 is going to start off totally different. You are probably going to be confused and bored with it at first, but just stick with it. They did and were happy with it, he said it was about episode 3 or 4 in season 2 where it started to click more. I know for me it took a bit too, but on rewatching season 2 is my favorite season. It isn't the best season but it is the one I enjoy the most. Season 4 is the best season but it hurts to rewatch it, the kid's stories are still gut punches every time.
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Jul 1, 2020 13:30
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I always loved season 2, it's my second favorite season behind 4. But I also had the benefit of starting the show late, after having caught the back half of season 3 on replay (I think season 5 was either airing or already finished) and being enthralled enough to go back and watch properly, so I always knew they were going to come back to the characters from season 1 at some point.
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Jul 1, 2020 13:35
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I didn't dislike season 5, but I'm just not a big fan of the newspaper subplot. Templeton is a completely flat and one dimensional character, especially by The Wire's standards. The rest of the newspaper characters come off as similarly flat and one dimensional. I like what they did plot-wise with the season and the police/omar/marlo stuff is all great but I don't feel like the newspaper angle was pulled off as well as a show like the Wire can. Maybe part of that is them having only 10 episodes instead of their usual 13. Perhaps they could have done a better job character building with a few more episodes so that people like Scott and Gus feel less like caricatures.
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Jul 1, 2020 15:22
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The thing with Marlo is spelled out fairly early when he's talking to Vinson at the rim shop. Vinson tells him that every single person that grabbed that crown ended up dead and Marlo's only response was "yeah, but they held that crown". He is only about power and his name. Not trying to build a lasting legacy or anything like that.
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Jul 1, 2020 16:43
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zenguitarman posted:I think this is a pretty common reaction to Marlo's organization and I think it definitely benefits from a rewatch once you get the flavor of what David Simon is doing. But I agree the barksdale crew has more interesting characters overall. For me the most gripping stuff was the kids plotline and Omar in prison was one of the highlights of the show. Yeah that's fair. I fully expect to appreciate Marlo more after a second viewing and I'm sure there was a lot of nuance I missed. Having said that I don't think the material would still match up to Avon, Wee Bey, Prop Joe and Clay Davis. Those characters just had so much charisma and depth. One of my favourite parts of the show was Avon's scenes with Cutty. In particular their last scene together where Cutty comes to Avon cap in hand, begging for some money for his gym. Avon's reaction was definitely not what I expected and left me thinking: "Wow I wouldn't mind Avon as my boss". My issue with the Stanfield organisation is that a lot of 'shortcuts' were taken in the writing process for the characters involved. Jerusalem posted:I am interested how you felt about the school plotline and the foursome of Namond, Michael, Randy and Dukie? Season 4 is my absolute favorite season and a large part of that is the kids they brought in and their stories- both the individual plots but also all the school stuff. It still blows my mind they added kids to a show and it somehow got BETTER. Namond, Michael, Randy and Dukie WERE Season 4 for me and by far the best part of it. I don't think the school and Carcetti plots had anything amazingly insightful in them, but the kids were great. Namond was mentally weakest and not as intelligent as the other three but was the only one who escaped/got rescued because he found a permanent father figure. Carver couldn't come through for Randy, Prez stopped being Dukie's father figure after his graduation and Michael pushed away Cutty. That was my reading of their stories by the end of S4
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Jul 1, 2020 17:05
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Jerusalem posted:I always loved season 2, it's my second favorite season behind 4. But I also had the benefit of starting the show late, after having caught the back half of season 3 on replay (I think season 5 was either airing or already finished) and being enthralled enough to go back and watch properly, so I always knew they were going to come back to the characters from season 1 at some point. Yeah I'm surprised to read Season 2 seems to have a mixed reaction. I thought the season was exceptional and some of the hardest hitting TV I've watched. After reading more about David Simon in the last few days, I'm surprised he wrote such a sympathetic tribute to the working class since he seems like an arch centrist.
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Jul 1, 2020 17:11
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Rollie Fingers posted:Yeah I'm surprised to read Season 2 seems to have a mixed reaction. I thought the season was exceptional and some of the hardest hitting TV I've watched. I think my reaction to season 2 was the typical one; I didn't like it at first because after S1 I finally thought I got a sense of what this show was all about and then they go and change it up on me. But then once you finish the series and really understand what the show was about, you realize that actually season 2 is quite excellent, it's just that initial "wait who are these people" shock that kind of drags it down a little. I will say that even on the first watch, by the end of season 2 I was fully on board with it (frank's arc is so well done that you can't help but fall in love with it), it just took some time to get into the swing. I didn't like ziggy at all until my rewatch though; and even then I can't say I "like" him, I just understand it better. He's like if Namond didn't get a break.
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Jul 1, 2020 17:16
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Rollie Fingers posted:Namond, Michael, Randy and Dukie WERE Season 4 for me and by far the best part of it. I don't think the school and Carcetti plots had anything amazingly insightful in them, but the kids were great. And despite his primary function as an allegorical character, watching Marlo was like watching paint dry. The actor has zero charisma and the role being written to highlight that was a terrible decision. Ginette Reno posted:I didn't dislike season 5, but I'm just not a big fan of the newspaper subplot. Templeton is a completely flat and one dimensional character, especially by The Wire's standards. The rest of the newspaper characters come off as similarly flat and one dimensional.
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Jul 1, 2020 18:20
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