|
I just watched season 2 for the 4th time. A pro and a con. Con: Frank Sobotka remains horribly overrated to me. He's thieving, only concerned for his group of people, but then that gloriously self important "we used to make things, now we just stick our hand in the next guy's pocket" - like he's so noble in his stealing? I don't know, he's commonly regarded as this hero struggling against all odds, but I see him as overwhelmingly selfish. Pro: Amy Ryan's Beadie Russell on viewing Frank Sobotka's corpse is the perfect culmination of everything. She, the actress and the character, are juggling all of this "fake police cum real police" "casual friend vs professional" "thrill of the chase vs quiet family life" emotion. It's a wordless scene but god it's just a brilliant performance.
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2013 22:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jan 22, 2025 20:27 |
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:
You have to remember the context of that particular line. He says it to Bruce DiBagio, who has been dipping his hand in Frank's pocket, while Bruce's granddad pushed a cart uphill to sell/sharpen steak knives (the build poo poo part). I see it less as a justification of his stealing but a lament for a time when hard work, graft, blood & sweat were worth a drat and that know it's all who you know and how much you can buy them off for. Valchek, Carcetti, Rawls, Burrell, Davis even Daniels get where they end up by whose wheels they grease and who they know higher up the food chain. The stevedores are getting hosed over by politicians with more cash and clout or the march of technology. gently caress, we saw it the UK when Thatcher declared war on the unions and manufacturing industry over here and turned us into a finance orientated economy. I've seen it in all the jobs I've done where I've grafted, gone over and above what's required me and seen someone get ahead of me because they're related to someone in a position of power. "The world goin' one way, people another yo"
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2013 23:11
|
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:I just watched season 2 for the 4th time. A pro and a con. Remember that Frank is a tragic character, not a pure "hero" - in fact, pretty much zero characters in the show fit that label. i think by the end of the season, right before his death, it's made quite clear that Frank's doomed, arguably delusional devotion to the union came at a cost - that he, in his words, "flushed his fuckin' family" and even after the dead women was astoundly naive about the Greek's business and what Ziggy and Nick were caught up in. As for his "selfishness" I'd say he's one of the few characters on the show who actually tries to do something about a real social problem in a way that's not about him. Yes, he does so at a terrible cost but still. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jan 31, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2013 23:26
|
|
|
It's a valid point that Frank is only loyal to "his own people" but at least he's loyal to them as opposed to nobody. When that one stevedore is on the verge of leaving Frank makes sure to get him enough money to help him out. I mean, it's not some shining example of pure altruism given the money's source, but at least he takes care of his own. Then you have people like Burrell, Carcetti, and even Rawls who are ok with loving over everyone around them for their own personal gain, even those that trust them. Loyalty to a tribe is better than loyalty to nothing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 00:07
|
|
|
Finished my rewatch last week. Now, this: Finally bothered to check my library, and there it was. Can't wait to read it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 00:37
|
|
|
Enjoy that, its worth it. Also a plea to any polish speaking goons: what does Valchek say when he receives the last surveillance van picture from Australia? After he calls Frank a motherfucking cocksucker, obviously
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 00:51
|
|
|
ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Enjoy that, its worth it. Also a plea to any polish speaking goons: what does Valchek say when he receives the last surveillance van picture from Australia? After he calls Frank a motherfucking cocksucker, obviously Infact based on time stamps, I was watching it right as you were posting this. What numbers should I play in the lottery?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 01:20
|
|
|
ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Enjoy that, its worth it. Also a plea to any polish speaking goons: what does Valchek say when he receives the last surveillance van picture from Australia? After he calls Frank a motherfucking cocksucker, obviously
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 01:44
|
|
|
"Rest in Peace" is the popular translation, as far as I could find. I looked that up when I first finished Season 2 as well and got this: http://ask.metafilter.com/128607/What-does-Valcheck-say-in-Polish-at-the-end-of-S2-of-the-wire E: Also, to go back a few pages, but I figured McNulty caught wind of Barksdale and crew when he was working the foot post in the Western. Somewhere he mentions he's only been on for ten or twelve years, and only the past few as Homicide, so that would put him on the beat when Avon was coming up on the street. That and losing a case (or two?) when the crew did their witness magic would have made them prime rib for McNutty. PlisskensEyePatch fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 01:48
|
|
|
I found out today that the McNugget scene was ever-so-slightly bullshit. The actual creator of the Chicken McNugget was the first Executive Chef for McDonalds, Rene Arend. He was also the creator of the McRib and Sausage McMuffin. Before his time at McDonalds, he was a very accomplished cook, serving the Queen of England, Cary Grant, etc. He held positions as head chef at the Drake hotel and the Whitehall club in Chicago before leaving for the better hours, better pay and challenge of McDonalds. The point is, while he certainly didn't get any sort of percentage, he did better than anyone depicted in The Wire.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 02:05
|
|
|
Skeesix posted:
Except for The Greek, the politicians, and the lawyers.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 04:06
|
|
|
Skeesix posted:I found out today that the McNugget scene was ever-so-slightly bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 04:28
|
|
|
That was the point. Wallace knew something the other boys didn't, showing the viewer that he's a bright young'un
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 06:07
|
|
|
I think he's kidding. I hope.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 06:27
|
|
|
Motherfucker got the bone all the way out the drat chicken. Wasn't that enough?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 08:10
|
|
|
Skeesix posted:I found out today that the McNugget scene was ever-so-slightly bullshit. What's important in that scene is not the actual historical facts (as already pointed out, D'Angelo is adamant that Alexander Hamilton was a US President) but the point D is making as a parallel to the drug game (as also shown in the chess scene) - the American dream has no place here, the plucky little guy doesn't pull himself up by the bootstraps and the people at the top will hammer you down and use your hard work to make their own success. Not only does the King stay the King, but no pawn is going to become a Queen, even if they ARE a clever rear end pawn. Out of that group, the only one who comes out alive and survives ends up working a minimum wage job selling shoes, and he is the "winner" of the group, the guy who "made it".
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 09:56
|
|
|
I've always read that scene as the earliest indication that "Wallace is sharp, and could excel if he weren't born into such dire conditions."
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 10:04
|
|
|
escape artist posted:I've always read that scene as the earliest indication that "Wallace is sharp, and could excel if he weren't born into such dire conditions." Likewise. David Simon had an essay which essentially asked, "Who among you moralizers would really go to school every day, study hard under the _clearly inspirational_ teachers of the Baltimore school system and fight through the tremendous social pressures from both blacks and whites to just take the easy money that's out there on the streets?" And the meaning of the McNugget scene isn't really changed. No one's pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. As I said, even though the McNugget chef had a better life than the Greek or any politician depicted, he never got a percentage. The king stay the king.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 12:05
|
|
|
I'd just like to add that the Barksdales closest thing to Mr. Nugget, their chemist, is barely heard from or seen at all in the series. He shows up when the Barksdales get Prop Joe's connect and he tests it for purity and says something like, "we can stomp on this bitch." I think he is in other episodes but he is hardly a player at all, and even if he did invent some new McCrack Nuggets, he wouldn't get a percentage.
deoju fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Feb 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
I just watched the commentary on the pilot episode of Person of Interest and learned that the first person who Reese saves - Pope's "little brother" - was Dukie in The Wire: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2369266/ The producers were talking about how much they loved him and they hired him unseen and he shows up at 17 years old and 6'4". Also, they mentioned wanting to hire everyone from The Wire. I brought this here because holy Hell I never would have guessed that was Dukie, and also because I love it when other TV people laud The Wire. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Michael K Williams is an entertaining dude, even as ODB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQq72MK93e0
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2013 22:10
|
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:Con: Frank Sobotka remains horribly overrated to me. He's thieving, only concerned for his group of people, but then that gloriously self important "we used to make things, now we just stick our hand in the next guy's pocket" - like he's so noble in his stealing? I don't know, he's commonly regarded as this hero struggling against all odds, but I see him as overwhelmingly selfish. I'm the one who gets on Frank for basically walking on the can of dead women. Yeah, he angsted about it for a bit, but ultimately he puts his conscience away and crawls back in with the Greek. However, what is noble in Frank's struggle is that he's one of the few in the game who isn't out for his own interests. The money isn't flowing back into his pocket, he's not living like a king. He's banking it and using it for the union and to advance their interests. When he bucks tradition to run for his office again, it's believable that he's doing it not for his own interests, but for the union. Basically Frank is the anti-Carcetti of the series, but even so he still comes out dirty because he's playing the game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 03:19
|
|
|
Play in the dirt you get dirty.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 07:10
|
|
|
Frostwerks posted:Play in the dirt you get dirty. First thing I thought, too. I love that line, and it has become one of the many Wire-isms that I have adopted into my own lexicon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 07:14
|
|
|
Randomly Specific posted:I'm the one who gets on Frank for basically walking on the can of dead women. Yeah, he angsted about it for a bit, but ultimately he puts his conscience away and crawls back in with the Greek. That's probably why season 2 is my favorite. Another big difference between that season and the others is the end result of the investigation. Normally, the investigations are good. They might be half measures, they might not really change anything. But in season 2 the only outcome of their investigation was the destruction of the union. Some mid level people got caught, but the drug and sex trade wasn't even touched. And the docks got closed and all of those people lost their jobs. In the end it wasn't even about the prostitutes. It was just another way for the system to gently caress over the unions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 17:49
|
|
|
escape artist posted:I've always read that scene as the earliest indication that "Wallace is sharp, and could excel if he weren't born into such dire conditions." Wallace wasn't the only sharp kid in the high rises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btz3gs90-s
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 18:19
|
|
|
A bunch of them were smart for poo poo that mattered to them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDxDvz0bd4
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 20:09
|
|
|
Bodie even knew a bunch of legal terms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO9ZU40RSqw
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:Wallace wasn't the only sharp kid in the high rises: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btz3gs90-s I can't think of a single individual in the Barksdale organization that strikes me as particularly smart, there are just people we sympathize with more than others but that doesn't make them smart. MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Feb 2, 2013 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 21:07
|
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:I'm not trying to be a dick but being able to do the same math that everyone else in class can do doesn't make you smart, it's more of a "not stupid" - even Wallace wasn't particularly bright. Depends how you define smart. I always feel like an rear end when I'm talking about these things in an academic setting, but: people like Wallace and D'Angelo (and to some extent, Bodie) were smart for the street. That is, they knew what they were in the scheme of things (pawns), and knew they had to be some smart-rear end pawns not to get capped quick. Problem is, being smart meant getting out of the game, which is something none of them were able to do. But people like that, with the drive to do well and an understanding of how poo poo works, they'd do well in a world outside of urban Baltimore. They were plenty smart, and plenty clever, but were never afforded the opportunity. I mean, yeah, you never hear them talking about synergizing the paradigms between social constructivist and expressionist pedagogies or whatever, but there's a long league between smart and educated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 22:29
|
|
|
That reminds me of one of my favorite Wire things: the sophisticated-ghetto phrases. "I'm about to lose my composure out this bitch!" "You equivocatin' like a motherfucker." "Chair ain't recognize your rear end." And my personal favorite, "Adjourn your asses". And of course many a Prop Joe line.
grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Feb 2, 2013 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 22:51
|
|
|
He had this one bitch pulling guns out her pussy! The poo poo was unseemly, yo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
Randomly Specific posted:I'm the one who gets on Frank for basically walking on the can of dead women. Yeah, he angsted about it for a bit, but ultimately he puts his conscience away and crawls back in with the Greek. The thing is that Frank does deserve to get knocked for how he ultimately got back in business with the Greek after the can of dead girls, but the alternative was walking on the Greek and losing what appeared to be his main money pipeline. Without that money, Frank couldn't get the time of day with anyone important (or even set up meetings with them through his lawyer) and would find it far harder to help out struggling union guys, or injuries like New Charles.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2013 22:59
|
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:I'm not trying to be a dick but being able to do the same math that everyone else in class can do doesn't make you smart, it's more of a "not stupid" - even Wallace wasn't particularly bright. They don't need to be geniuses to be smart, capable people in their own right.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2013 07:21
|
|
|
You know how Obama did that photo-op with himself shooting a gun? Well, they specifically said not to manipulate the photo, so naturally GBS made a thread full of photoshopped versions of it. I had to cross-post this (with props to OwlBot 2000 for creating it) 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2013 10:06
|
|
|
Parachute Underwear posted:The thing is that Frank does deserve to get knocked for how he ultimately got back in business with the Greek after the can of dead girls, but the alternative was walking on the Greek and losing what appeared to be his main money pipeline. Without that money, Frank couldn't get the time of day with anyone important (or even set up meetings with them through his lawyer) and would find it far harder to help out struggling union guys, or injuries like New Charles. Oh yeah, he did it for a good end, but there's no escaping the fact that from that point onward he was knowingly prioritizing the economics of his own tribe over the slavery of the women. He was hair better ethically than the guys who were tasering women for going to the convenience store or whatever. In a theoretical sense I can forgive the drugs because the justifications on that are much easier for a guy in his position to make- people want to buy the product, it's not his business what people put in their body. But slavery? No, that's a very sharp line that gets crossed and it makes him, Nick, Horse and whoever else is involved knowing parties to the slave trade. The worst part is when he throws that rant at Beadie about the respect he has for women, he has a mother and sisters, etc., then goes ahead and facilitates however many mothers, sisters, and daughters being sexually exploited, raped and abused. It's The Wire and nobody's a spotless hero- his conflict on that is a big part of the early season. Like I've said before, the entire season is a prime example of how sex trafficking is a near-invisible crime, because as soon as the MCU busts the bordello the entire sex trafficking angle pretty much vaporizes and they return to their focus on drugs. The women they scooped up will go to one of those holding cells like Jimmy visited in search of an identity for his Jane Doe, they'll be shipped home and then they'll be on the next container heading west. Busting the bordello accomplished jack and poo poo and other than the tale of Jimmy being overwhelmed by the prostitutes it's hardly ever spoken of again. Absolutely nothing was accomplished by their single bust and they knew it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2013 22:30
|
|
|
The point of the Bordello bust wasn't to stop human trafficking or even hinder it, it was just to gather information for the case they were working in the first place. Besides, nobody accomplished anything on the large scale in The Wire, people generally weren't even interested in that, aside from Lester Freamon and McNulty. Everyone knew they couldn't stop human trafficking any more than they could stop the gang wars or the war on drugs. The only person who ever really did anything towards making a difference was Bunny with Hamsterdam, and we all know how that turned out. Nobody in Baltimore can do anything to change the way the war on drugs or rules about immigration work, they can just do what they can to keep themselves and their people sheltered and fed. Human trafficking is horrible, but so is the culture of murder and violence that Frank was supporting by importing drugs. It's just kinda the way the world works, you can support the lovely things that go on behind closed doors or you can go live in the woods a hundred miles away from civilization and be a hermit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2013 23:16
|
|
|
Super Bowl XLVII, 3rd Quarter-- aka The Wire Season 6.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2013 03:14
|
|
|
escape artist posted:Super Bowl XLVII, 3rd Quarter-- aka The Wire Season 6. "gently caress those West Coast niggas. In B-More, we aim to hit a nigga, y'heard?"
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2013 04:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jan 22, 2025 20:27 |
|
|
3Romeo posted:Depends how you define smart. However, assuming I did believe that street smarts existed. D'Angelo loudly confronted the senior leadership of his gang, infront of the police, about the whereabouts of Wallace, in such a way that it made crystal clear that it was foul play, and then continually stonewalled Avon. Self righteously shortening your own life is not smart by any definition. Wallace snitched, then went into hiding, then came back like oh hey sup guys just gonna bend over and pick up this discman real quick. Plus, if he's street smart perhaps he could keep the count straight and recognize money. Neither of these people are very smart. Since I don't do street vs book smart I'll just state that in my mind, the smartest member of Barksdale's crew is Bodie. It's as much an ego thing as anything else, but when he cuts his price to compete with Cheese in the towers because all sales are profit, that's smart. But then he still ends up exhibiting a total lack of street smarts by shooting his mouth off about Marlo. I dunno, I return to my original point - we sympathize with the characters and a situation from which they can't escape, but not a one of them is smart. MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Feb 4, 2013 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2013 08:31
|
|