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Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes
Fun Shoe

BiggerBoat posted:

I thought it kind of was? Or am I mis-remembering and it was just to redirect budget money?

It was to redirect budget money to the case but Rawls rightly points out to Mcnulty that he and the other detectives all got paid.

In fact Mcnulty is able to get away with the deception for as long as he does in part because the other detectives are getting paid OT, and nobody is gonna rat on Mcnulty over that. Kima is the only one shown to have a big problem with it.

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BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For That you Get the Head...

The Tail...

The Whole Damned Thing

Ainsley McTree posted:

I guess Lester's characterization could have been a little more transparent, but I guess I rationalized his behavior in Season 5 as like, the impetuous "oh gently caress the bosses" part of his personality that landed him in the pawn shop unit for 14 years is still in there, deep down. He's had a lot of time to think about what really matters to him and to learn to suppress it, but if you push his buttons hard enough, it might still come out.

The fact that he's approaching retirement in s5 could be used as a rationalization too; if he's quitting soon anyway, why not take a big risk, what's the worst they can do to him? The only thing, is that bunny's arc in season 3 explicitly answered that question, so I suppose that doesn't really make consistent sense.

I also might be misremembering, but I think McNulty's goal was specifically to funnel resources toward the Marlo investigation, wasn't it? But then soon word got out about the scam (or at least the "free overtime" part of it) and other cops started twisting his arm to get their own thing out of it.

Well, take away his pension were he to get caught.

I thought that, in addition to what you mentioned, that OT also entered into it? Been a while since I watched the show but I seem to distinctly remember that OT hours were part of the "serial killer" budget and the allocation of resources.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Lester always seemed principled to me, which is different from honest. Uncompromising, but not inherently upstanding.

The fake serial killer wasn't about overtime to start, it was about working normal-time on actual cases. Maybe a distinction without a difference, as the city seemed uninterested in paying for either. Over time it grew to overtime for anyone who threatened to expose the hoax.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




again with both The Wire and WOTC I have to say that I wish other front line workers had what cops have. "Will you be giving me OT for chasing that car? If not gently caress you, my shift's over and I'm not doing anything else!" and then gently caress all happens the next time they clock in.

I remember a little over a decade ago I worked retail and just as it was my time to clock out my section got really busy. I was assisting one customer and then when someone else came to ask for help I referred them to one of my coworkers and I said "my shift is over, once I'm done with this person, I'm going home". I didn't get written up or anything but everyone in my section gave me poo poo and the manager told me that was poor customer service and I shouldn't do that again. These days I hear on the news about how healthcare systems around the globe are on the verge of collapse thanks to burnout. I was hearing a nurses union rep talk about the state of their part of the country and how they keep bleeding staff from all sorts of stuff, denying vacations, forced OT that may or may not be paid for several years if they're lucky, no additional resources to help with stress and mental health.

Yet every time a cop beats somebody they get put on paid leave pending investigation, or they get back pay if their suspension is reversed, or they don't see any consequences period. All that and the majority of the time when they ask for a budget increase from a municipality, they go the mafia route and smash windows to get their "protection money". Where did this even start and how do you switch this around so that people that actually DO serve the public interest actually get the support and resources they need?

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

This is Lester we're talking about. He was investigating Clay Davis in the first season, which got the unit shut down. He was still investigating Clay in season 3, where he admitted to issuing subpoenas right before the election for political purposes. He was still investigating Clay in season 5 while the hoax was going on. When he gets a bone he may back off for a time but he keeps at it, even if it hurts those around him.

And remember the bodies in the vacants were his. He spent most of S4 dragging Bunk along to look for Marlo's hypothetical bodies. Hypothetical bodies being particularly unwanted by Landsman and other higher ups.

It's definitely a stretch that Lester gets involved in the hoax. But he wanted his case to be worked, same as McNulty. They're really pretty similar characters in the end, Lester is just more patient and lacks Jimmy's self-destructive attributes.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Ainsley McTree posted:

I also might be misremembering, but I think McNulty's goal was specifically to funnel resources toward the Marlo investigation, wasn't it? But then soon word got out about the scam (or at least the "free overtime" part of it) and other cops started twisting his arm to get their own thing out of it.

Yeah but it's mostly depicted as police trying to get the resources they need to do real poh-leez work, as opposed to just getting free money for doing jack poo poo.


Aces High posted:

Where did this even start and how do you switch this around so that people that actually DO serve the public interest actually get the support and resources they need?

You abolish capitalism and start building communism.

Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 10, 2022

Kevyn
Mar 5, 2003

I just want to smile. Just once. I'd like to just, one time, go to Disney World and smile like the other boys and girls.

Ainsley McTree posted:

part of his personality that landed him in the pawn shop unit for 14 years is still in there

Ahem. 13 yearsÖ

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out
Biscuit Hider
And four months!

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Orange Devil posted:

You abolish capitalism and start building communism.

How effective was policing in communist countries? This is something I've never read about.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


Orange Devil posted:

Yeah but it's mostly depicted as police trying to get the resources they need to do real poh-leez work, as opposed to just getting free money for doing jack poo poo.


Doesn't it quickly reach a point where one of them asks for it over some personal business, and when McNulty calls him out on his flimsy work-related excuse, he says "just do it or i'll tattle"?

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For That you Get the Head...

The Tail...

The Whole Damned Thing

Orange Devil posted:

Yeah but it's mostly depicted as police trying to get the resources they need to do real poh-leez work, as opposed to just getting free money for doing jack poo poo.

It was definitely that and was centered around how nobody gives a poo poo about drug dealers and rounding up corner boys anymore but the idea of a serial killer is sexy, sells papers and gets eyes on it. It drives subscriptions and gets mayors and politicians talking. That's also reflected in the newspaper plot so everyone is "forced" to invent the idea of a Red Ribbon Killer and fake crimes/fake news in order to sell papers or get police funding since their bored with regular old crime and it's not sensational enough. Then you add on the fact that the killer is targeting the homeless.

The Baltimore Sun story line was by and large the concept of a dying print media and the increasing reliance on click bait to make money. We see it in the layoffs and the consultants at the paper. The futility of the drug war and the increasing deterioration of real press and real journalism in a capitalist society driven by ads and revenue was at the heart of what I think Simon was getting into there and touched on the idea of "fake news" being a money maker. Or, in the cop's case, getting any funding at all.

Everything basically has to be an advertisement in and of itself.

A part of me, watching this, can be occasionally sympathetic to the police. Not that I like cops (at all) but in terms of how their job performance and funding are determined, which are loving stupid. Their entire motivation (and PAY) are tied to how many cases they clear and how many people they lock up, and it's not always their fault. We're shown how, often, naive recruits get into the job for altruistic reasons are quickly disabused of that notion and attitude from the jump. And it always has to do with politics and money.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

Count Roland posted:

How effective was policing in communist countries? This is something I've never read about.

in urban planning, the concepts of the 15 minute city and crime prevention through environmental design have gained some popularity in recent years, particularly among academic circles. the idea behind them is that how a city is designed foregoes the need for regular patrols and armed enforcement. for instance, a public space will be designed with adequate lighting, amenities, shops, etc. and arranged in such a way that encourages continuous activity so that there are always "eyes" in a place which has a marked effect on the amount of crime that takes place there

anyway the soviets had us beat on those concepts by about 80 years and many of their urban areas, particularly soviet microdistricts, were basically 5 minute cities, so the city at large was extremely accessible and most people walked or used public transit, meaning there weren't a whole lot of "dead zones" like in the US where poverty and crime could fester. microdistricts were also regarded as the most basic form of governance within the soviet system, and the residents of a housing block usually constituted a democratically organized administrative unit that handled everything from building maintenance to rule enforcement to investigating claims. basically, you knew all your neighbors and they all knew you, and if you had a problem with someone or you saw some suspicious activity, there were avenues you could take that didn't necessitate a trip to the local police station.

that, along with the 1957 Soviet Housing Decree, which guaranteed private accommodations and the basic necessities of life for all soviet citizens, and launched an initiative that provided 70 million homes to over 300 million people by 1990, meant that people weren't really living in dire conditions as they do here. street crime did still happen but compared to the US, it was exceptionally rare. police substations were usually glorified apartment units, minimally staffed and equipped with basic record-keeping equipment. don't quote me on this, but i think i read somewhere that most police didn't carry firearms on patrols (which were usually on foot).

Stories of House and Home: Soviet Apartment Life during the Khrushchev Years, Varga-Harris (2015)
Socialist Planning, Ellman (2014)

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

Aces High posted:

Yet every time a cop beats somebody they get put on paid leave pending investigation, or they get back pay if their suspension is reversed, or they don't see any consequences period. All that and the majority of the time when they ask for a budget increase from a municipality, they go the mafia route and smash windows to get their "protection money". Where did this even start and how do you switch this around so that people that actually DO serve the public interest actually get the support and resources they need?

Every empire needs its janissaries or its praetorians

And they're usually destroyed by them too

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

God Hole posted:

in urban planning, the concepts of the 15 minute city and crime prevention through environmental design have gained some popularity in recent years, particularly among academic circles. the idea behind them is that how a city is designed foregoes the need for regular patrols and armed enforcement. for instance, a public space will be designed with adequate lighting, amenities, shops, etc. and arranged in such a way that encourages continuous activity so that there are always "eyes" in a place which has a marked effect on the amount of crime that takes place there

anyway the soviets had us beat on those concepts by about 80 years and many of their urban areas, particularly soviet microdistricts, were basically 5 minute cities, so the city at large was extremely accessible and most people walked or used public transit, meaning there weren't a whole lot of "dead zones" like in the US where poverty and crime could fester. microdistricts were also regarded as the most basic form of governance within the soviet system, and the residents of a housing block usually constituted a democratically organized administrative unit that handled everything from building maintenance to rule enforcement to investigating claims. basically, you knew all your neighbors and they all knew you, and if you had a problem with someone or you saw some suspicious activity, there were avenues you could take that didn't necessitate a trip to the local police station.

that, along with the 1957 Soviet Housing Decree, which guaranteed private accommodations and the basic necessities of life for all soviet citizens, and launched an initiative that provided 70 million homes to over 300 million people by 1990, meant that people weren't really living in dire conditions as they do here. street crime did still happen but compared to the US, it was exceptionally rare. police substations were usually glorified apartment units, minimally staffed and equipped with basic record-keeping equipment. don't quote me on this, but i think i read somewhere that most police didn't carry firearms on patrols (which were usually on foot).

Stories of House and Home: Soviet Apartment Life during the Khrushchev Years, Varga-Harris (2015)
Socialist Planning, Ellman (2014)

Thanks, that's interesting.

The idea of having eyes on a street was made popular in the US/West by Jane Jacobs in her book The Death and Life of Great American Cities. I've actually seen photos and satellite images of soviet apartment blocks and I've been curious as to why they were laid out as they were.

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

Count Roland posted:

Thanks, that's interesting.

The idea of having eyes on a street was made popular in the US/West by Jane Jacobs in her book The Death and Life of Great American Cities. I've actually seen photos and satellite images of soviet apartment blocks and I've been curious as to why they were laid out as they were.

oh yeah that's a classic. it's true she popularized the concept back in the 60's but tbh I think you'd be hard pressed to find it being discussed seriously in an american city planning document before the 2000's

if you're interested in learning more about the history and logic of housing blocks, this is a pretty informative video from city beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGVBv7svKLo&t=531s

Kazzah
Jul 15, 2011

Formerly known as
Krazyface
Hair Elf
I'm willing to forgive a lot of S5's bullshit for that scene where McNulty confesses to Scott, and tells him how high the conspiracy goes, all with a poo poo-eating grin because he knows Scott can never follow up on the story of a lifetime.

MrMojok
Jan 28, 2011

I have to say, Lester going all-in on Jimmy's fake serial killer thing was something that was kind of jarring to me at the time, and one of my main problems with S5, but the explanations given lately ITT are the first time I've really ever seen Lester's motivations and proclivities this way. It does make sense.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



Don't know about other "street crime", but domestic violence, youth hooliganism (up to and including assaulting people on the streets) were common and often fairly overlooked, particularly during the 80's economic depression.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
I mean his judgment wasnít always totally sound. He started a relationship with a witness (or CI? Canít remember)

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

Kazzah posted:

I'm willing to forgive a lot of S5's bullshit for that scene where McNulty confesses to Scott, and tells him how high the conspiracy goes, all with a poo poo-eating grin because he knows Scott can never follow up on the story of a lifetime.

this and his gleefully vindictive conversation with Brianna Barksdale are all-time McNulty moments

Xander77 posted:

Don't know about other "street crime", but domestic violence, youth hooliganism (up to and including assaulting people on the streets) were common and often fairly overlooked, particularly during the 80's economic depression.

yeah this is true, but I would argue it's more attributable to economic depression and societal collapse in general rather than something peculiar to the soviet policing model

domestic violence unfortunately wasn't treated seriously as a legal matter in most developed countries throughout the world until the 1990's. in the US, the Violence Against Women Act wasn't passed until 1994

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


Jewmanji posted:

I mean his judgment wasnít always totally sound. He started a relationship with a witness (or CI? Canít remember)

CI yeah, the dancer from Orlando's club.

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out
Biscuit Hider
It's also not something Lester would have probably ever done on his own, but since Jimmy has already opened the barn door and let the horse out...

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost
Lester was also watching Marlo & Friends on his own time at that point as well.

deoju
Jul 11, 2004

All the pieces matter.
Nap Ghost
Michael K. Williams was working on a memoir before his death. Out now. Here's a piece on it.
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/23/1119038737/michael-k-williams-memoir-scenes-from-my-life

teen phone cutie
Jun 18, 2012

last year i rewrote something awful from scratch because i hate myself
getting started with season 4. I'm only on episode 5, but i'm not in love with Marlo yet. He's starting off kinda boring

Kosmo Gallion
Sep 13, 2013
He is boring.

Chris and Snoop are the interesting ones.

Mike N Eich
Jan 27, 2007

This might just be the year
Yeah Marlo is really not nearly as compelling a character as Avon or Stringer, which is Simon's intention, I'm sure. I think it's a shame, honestly. I think, as sophisticated as much of the Wire is regarding characterization, they are doing something with the Stanfields that plays into media narratives - the young, up-and-coming generation believe in nothing, are more ruthless and dangerous than what came before them. I don't think its ever really "true" but its something that every generation ends up believing about the ones who come to replace them.

There are hints about Marlo, his outburst about his name being sullied, his care for the pigeons, etc. But it's thin gruel in comparison to the high drama of Avon and Stringer.

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out
Biscuit Hider
It's also the evolutionary pressure of the systems that shape these people, I think. You could probably find something similar at the docks, in the schools, at city hall etc. Each subsequent generation needs to be a little more ruthless, a little more cutthroat... dare I say a little more capitalist than the one before them or they die out. Especially as wealth and power get more concentrated and there's just less space for competition in general.

I don't think it ended up fully baked though.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

I donít think the commentary is that the younger generation cares less, itís more that the system is engineered to promote those who have no qualms becoming the best capitalists they can be.

mossyfisk
Nov 8, 2010

FF0000
This is the dialectic.

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin
The commentary is that the younger guy cares more about his name than the money. It's the same dynamic between Avon and Stringer. Marlow will mellow out when he gets older too.

Mike N Eich
Jan 27, 2007

This might just be the year
With Avon it's a little bit more complicated - he cares about his name for his ego's sake, but he also recognizes that his credibility has real bread-and-butter stakes. There's the fact that his connection with New York is important to continue access for their product and there's also the fact that if his organization is seen as weak, others will feel more willing to prey on him.

For Marlo, it's pure ego. He's wants to wear the crown, even if he ends up dead or in prison afterwards. It's all short term glory.

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

Mike N Eich posted:

With Avon it's a little bit more complicated - he cares about his name for his ego's sake, but he also recognizes that his credibility has real bread-and-butter stakes. There's the fact that his connection with New York is important to continue access for their product and there's also the fact that if his organization is seen as weak, others will feel more willing to prey on him.

For Marlo, it's pure ego. He's wants to wear the crown, even if he ends up dead or in prison afterwards. It's all short term glory.

Marlo knew this too, which is why he didn't kill prop Joe until after he got in good with the Greek Marlo knows he has to always look strong so he kills the security guard, and ends the series bashing a skull in yelling how his name is his name.
E: also remember one of the big themes in this show is that nothing can ever change, so thematically Marlo has to rise and replace the Barksdales the same way they did

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For That you Get the Head...

The Tail...

The Whole Damned Thing
Marlo is not boring

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



"Boring" isn't the word, more like "not a character like you would cast an Idris Elba to play, more like the kind of slow-burn, implacable, clinical, never-see-it-coming accountancy evil that makes up the real world instead of these charisma-oozing movie-star types"

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For That you Get the Head...

The Tail...

The Whole Damned Thing
I found Marlo to be captivating from the get go juts with how smooth and cold he is about poo poo. That scene where he calls out Mike for not taking his money and the other where he casually practices with the 9 iron by "bring a gentleman about it for the moment" were total ice. You never really see him lose his poo poo until the end when he's in lock up and is more concerned with his Name than his actual predicament.

He's like a loving machine with a singular goal and just so matter of fact about what's what. "Price o the brick goin up". "You want it to be one way". His repeated visits to the Greek with cleaner and cleaner money, calmly taking his rejection in stride but coming back with again and again. Dude is determined but patient and systematic as a motherfucker.

I mean I can see how maybe some people might find that boring but I didn't. Granted, it takes a while before his character becomes fully formed but I never found that process to be dull at all in any way.

Jamie Hector is really loving great and I hope he lands more roles. Watching him in We Own This City really cemented his range for me and I can picture him in a lot of poo poo. Tarantino, Spike and Scorcese should give him a call.

BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Aug 27, 2022

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012


I've just started Bosch mostly because of Hector but half way through s1 and I'm really wishing he had more screen time and more character than playboy who ruined his marriage and regrets it who plays the 'bad' cop in interviews by asking the direct questions. Dunno, maybe I'm missing subtle characterizations. I did like the golf scene where Bosch calls him Tiger.

Hope his role grows because if it doesn't I'll probably end up dropping the show.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




christmas boots posted:

It's also the evolutionary pressure of the systems that shape these people, I think. You could probably find something similar at the docks, in the schools, at city hall etc. Each subsequent generation needs to be a little more ruthless, a little more cutthroat... dare I say a little more capitalist than the one before them or they die out. Especially as wealth and power get more concentrated and there's just less space for competition in general.

I don't think it ended up fully baked though.

I don't buy that Marlo was more ruthless than Barksdale, remember that these were the guys that casually threw out a dead woman after a party. Marlo is maybe just more honest about it, he doesn't try to delude himself that he follows some sort of code.

Syrian Lannister
Aug 25, 2007

Oh, did I kill him too?
I've been a very busy little man.


Sugartime Jones

Shrimp or Shrimps posted:

I've just started Bosch mostly because of Hector but half way through s1 and I'm really wishing he had more screen time and more character than playboy who ruined his marriage and regrets it who plays the 'bad' cop in interviews by asking the direct questions. Dunno, maybe I'm missing subtle characterizations. I did like the golf scene where Bosch calls him Tiger.

Hope his role grows because if it doesn't I'll probably end up dropping the show.

It does.

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BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

For That you Get the Head...

The Tail...

The Whole Damned Thing

Alhazred posted:

I don't buy that Marlo was more ruthless than Barksdale, remember that these were the guys that casually threw out a dead woman after a party. Marlo is maybe just more honest about it, he doesn't try to delude himself that he follows some sort of code.

I think he is.

Assuming your'e referencing Avon and not Avon/Stringer/Co-op/Prop Joe, Marlo doesn't give a poo poo about any of that East Side/West Side bullshit, the co-op or negotiating for the collective good of the drug business at ALL. He just wants the crown. Period. "Fact is I wore it" and "my name is my name". Nothing in the way of loyalty or cooperation gets in the way of that and he gives zero fucks beyond being The King and what his name means in that context. See: the way he cuts out Joe and works his way into the Greek's good graces or how he orders hits on people he THINKS might be speaking out of turn, compromised or just talking poo poo and gossiping. He doesn't think twice about what a one man war on Omar might mean.

He'd probably even turn on Snoop and Chris in a heartbeat if they weren't so slavishly loyal, dedicated and uniquely suited to the job of basically just killing motherfuckers and hiding the bodies pretty well. He wouldn't give them up to cops but if either of them ever became a loose end, he'd put them in a vacant in a heartbeat and wouldn't think twice about finding some new muscle. But Snoop and Chris are great at their jobs and incredibly trustworthy. Not Micheal, for instance who, while skilled and useful to Marlo, was too much of a risk.

Marlo has a singular, laser like focus on what he wants and, in that context, I think is MORE ruthless than the Barksdale clan who at least seemed to have a sense that they need to have rules and also still function within a certain segment of society. Some of Avon's Old School poo poo and Stringer's legitimate business man ambitions worked to their detriment. Marlo never allowed that poo poo to cloud his vision or get in his way.

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