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ShowTime
Mar 28, 2005

Xiahou Dun posted:

My shameful secret is I've never actually finished season 5. I've watched the rest of the show multiple times, but never these last like ~8 episodes that I'm on right now.

Every time I've tried in the past 1) you can't just start at season 5, don't be weird. You obviously need to see it in context so you need to have the whole show fresh in your mind, and 2) McNulty loving his life over is incredibly painful to watch. I'm writhing in every scene of him drunk and womanizing.

Season 5 is by far the worst season. It's redeeming qualities are the fall of McNulty and the rise of Bubbles. But we also get to see corruption win out ultimately, the death of Omar and Dookie fall into a terrible life, that wasn't meant for him.

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Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



ShowTime posted:

Season 5 is by far the worst season. It's redeeming qualities are the fall of McNulty and the rise of Bubbles. But we also get to see corruption win out ultimately, the death of Omar and Dookie fall into a terrible life, that wasn't meant for him.

Well it’s a good thing I don’t care about spoilers.

Cacator
Aug 6, 2005

You're quite good at turning me on.

Season 5 is fun, more satirical and I always get a kick out of the serial killer stuff. Except for Templeton, that bastard.
Season 4 is a masterpiece but it's such a downer and The Wire was always so good at dark comedy so I didn't mind the tonal shift. And yeah a lot of beloved characters don't get a noble end while awful people prosper but that's keeping with the themes of the show.

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



It's been a minute since I watched it and I've never done a rewatch, but one of the things I remember really appreciating about The Wire is that it never feels like "A TV Show" — in the sense of being subject to all the little behind-the-scenes whims of casting, writing, budget, all that meta-story stuff that in so many shows you always feel hanging over every situation like "lol ok so this character now has a new physical body for X contrived reason, but we all know it's because the actor quit and had to be replaced" or whatever.

In this show you've got people coming and going all the time. Like you'll be in season 4 or 5 and you haven't thought about Avon Barksdale in forever and you might assume he's been written out because of contract negotiations or something but then suddenly he'll just show up out of the blue once. Or major characters will get killed off right in the middle of a season and that's just the way it goes.

Mike N Eich
Jan 26, 2007

This might just be the year
There's tons of bad things that happen to characters in Season 5 but I never found it overwhelmingly depressing. We lose some really great players, and the world continues on almost unchanged, but there are some uplifting stories as well. McNulty's ending I would say is uplifting, honestly. He's a great cop, but it's also absolutely horrible for him and his soul, and he gets a second lease on life by the end of the series.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Mike N Eich posted:


I haven't seen We Own This City, but a sort of epilogue - 10 years later - kind of series may have been cool, revisiting some of the surviving characters. I dunno.

You should rectify this matter. It's really loving good and worth it just to see the astonishing range of Jamie Hector and how good an actor he is.


Data Graham posted:

It's been a minute since I watched it and I've never done a rewatch, but one of the things I remember really appreciating about The Wire is that it never feels like "A TV Show" — in the sense of being subject to all the little behind-the-scenes whims of casting, writing, budget, all that meta-story stuff that in so many shows you always feel hanging over every situation like "lol ok so this character now has a new physical body for X contrived reason, but we all know it's because the actor quit and had to be replaced" or whatever.

In this show you've got people coming and going all the time. Like you'll be in season 4 or 5 and you haven't thought about Avon Barksdale in forever and you might assume he's been written out because of contract negotiations or something but then suddenly he'll just show up out of the blue once. Or major characters will get killed off right in the middle of a season and that's just the way it goes.

For me, it almost required a re-watch, for the reasons you cited. It's so loving dense and goes out of its way to respect the viewer's intelligence, not hold their hand nor cater to cliched expectations that drag down so many police dramas. I picked up so much on my second (and third) rewatch that I was almost embarrassed at all the poo poo I missed, and the surprises and connections that I unearthed once I familiarized myself with what was what, which is a testament to how mature and realistic the writing is.

My only gripe with season 5 was the hamfisted serial killer hoax and Lester's sudden and out of character rebel cop heel turn. I liked the newspaper stuff myself.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

We Own This City isn't nearly as good as The Wire but the story it tells is interesting and there's some good performances (Hector, Jon Bernthal, the guy who played Landsman)

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


It's also a real showcase of the Baltimore accent

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Yeah, We Own This City was fantastic, and Jon Bernthal is incredible in it.

First time I finished a full watch of The Wire I just straight up put season 1 back on and watch the entire thing all over again. I've since done multiple full rewatches and it still blows my mind just how densely packed it is, how I keep spotting things I missed or didn't grasp the full significance of. I don't know if we're likely to ever see television quite like it again, but I sure hope so.

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time
We Own This City was good. I saw Simon say in an interview that he thought he could be more incisive with a non-fiction-based story about real people though and I didn't feel that way coming off the show as a viewer. Their biggest shots were aimed at street-level cops and the higher the person was in the chain of command (police commissioner, mayor) the less the show had to say about them. The specific drama around the Gun Trace Task Force robbing and jacking people up wasn't that interesting to me.

Pirate Radar
Apr 18, 2008

You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!

Ainsley McTree posted:

It's also a real showcase of the Baltimore accent

Amboolance

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



O so this is why you all keep using Templeton’s name like a cuss word.

RoboChrist 9000
Dec 14, 2006

Mater Dolorosa

Ainsley McTree posted:

It's also a real showcase of the Baltimore accent

Don't you mean the Bawlmer accent?

EDIT: It's funny but the accent/vernacular thing that most makes me like 'WTF that sounds weird' in The Wire isn't any of the police lingo, not any of the street lingo or AAVE, it's the use of "police." "You're good police."

deoju
Jul 11, 2004

All the pieces matter.
Nap Ghost

StashAugustine posted:

We Own This City isn't nearly as good as The Wire but the story it tells is interesting and there's some good performances (Hector, Jon Bernthal, the guy who played Landsman)

Also Dookie, that is Jermaine Crawford, too.

Xiahou Dun posted:

O so this is why you all keep using Templeton’s name like a cuss word.
Lmao, yep. Nearly every character in this show has some redeeming quality or sympathetic angle. But not that mother fucker. I'd trust Cheese over him.

Now that I think of it, I gotta wonder how Simon came up with him. Maybe an axe to grind with someone in particular? Or just an amalgam of the awful poo poo he saw? He's not the type to keep his mouth shut when he's got a problem with somebody. If Templeton is based on one person you could probably figure out who it is based on the years they were both at the Sun and his or her resume and articles.

Edit : glad you are enjoying the series.

deoju fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Feb 11, 2023

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




iirc Templeton is an amalgam of a few journalists that did similar things, but I think that Stephen Glass was probably the most recognized. If you want to see Hayden Christensen be a whiny journalist instead of a whiny Jedi, check out the biopic Shattered Glass

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


deoju posted:

Also Dookie, that is Jermaine Crawford, too.


Oh what the gently caress, I did not notice that

kids grow up so fast

christmas boots
Oct 15, 2012

To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out
Biscuit Hider

Aces High posted:

iirc Templeton is an amalgam of a few journalists that did similar things, but I think that Stephen Glass was probably the most recognized. If you want to see Hayden Christensen be a whiny journalist instead of a whiny Jedi, check out the biopic Shattered Glass

There’s also specifically a reporter from the Sun, Jim Haner, who wrote a story in 2000 that had to be retracted for inaccuracies, and that Simon has said he believed invented quotes and events. I think he has elements of multiple people but if he’s directly based on anyone that’s probably the guy.

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003

Pillbug
Every stinking rewatch. The part with the chicken nuggets makes me hungry for nuggets till i go get some. You think the Wire dude got paid?

God Hole
Mar 2, 2016

drat dookie got fine as hell

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

There's a few bad scenes in We Own This City where characters are just reading one of David Simon's essays verbatim to the audience but other than that it's a great show with amazing rear end in a top hat performances. I hate every single one of those cops.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Mu Zeta posted:

There's a few bad scenes in We Own This City where characters are just reading one of David Simon's essays verbatim to the audience but other than that it's a great show with amazing rear end in a top hat performances. I hate every single one of those cops.

I really appreciate that Jon Bernthal is a fractally terrible rear end in a top hat in that show. At every level of analysis, he's still a complete douche.

Corrupt cop? Yes.

Drinks while driving? Yes.

Drinks loving Twisted Tea and Mike's Hard while driving? Yes.

And he litters the can.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Peanut is in it too, keep an eye out

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

Jewmanji posted:

Peanut is in it too, keep an eye out

And Slim Charles

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

And Marla Daniels.

Kevyn
Mar 5, 2003

I just want to smile. Just once. I'd like to just, one time, go to Disney World and smile like the other boys and girls.

Jewmanji posted:

Peanut is in it too, keep an eye out

Do you mean Donut

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
Yes? Whichever kid was always jacking cars

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Jewmanji posted:

Yes? Whichever kid was always jacking cars

Donut.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005

Pillbug
is mike's cousin deez in it

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

awesmoe posted:

is mike's cousin deez in it

Doughz Nuts!

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020

Jewmanji posted:

Peanut is in it too, keep an eye out

"Motherfucker, do I look like George Washington Carver?"

WithoutTheFezOn
Aug 28, 2005
Oh no

Jewmanji posted:

Peanut is in it too, keep an eye out
Look man, if you want guns, I can get you guns.

Pirate Radar
Apr 18, 2008

You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!

Xiahou Dun posted:

I really appreciate that Jon Bernthal is a fractally terrible rear end in a top hat in that show. At every level of analysis, he's still a complete douche.

Corrupt cop? Yes.

Drinks while driving? Yes.

Drinks loving Twisted Tea and Mike's Hard while driving? Yes.

And he litters the can.

Stupid facial hair? Yes.

lovely actor when he’s staging videos to cover up stealing money? Yes.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Pirate Radar posted:

lovely actor when he’s staging videos to cover up stealing money? Yes.

That was incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LMsb9qYbqE

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Mu Zeta posted:

There's a few bad scenes in We Own This City where characters are just reading one of David Simon's essays verbatim to the audience but other than that it's a great show with amazing rear end in a top hat performances. I hate every single one of those cops.

Man, this is spot on and it sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise great show. I'd forgotten about the numerous character exposition dumps. Actually, it's not even really exposition so much as social commentary and criminal justice theories delivered as lunch conversations.

"Since we all know that education is the key to keeping kids off of drugs, we need to take a long look at the system that denies poor people access to good schools and why we pay our teachers so little" - a character

BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Feb 12, 2023

Count Roland
Oct 6, 2013

BiggerBoat posted:

Man, this is spot on and it sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise great show. I'd forgotten about the numerous character exposition dumps. Actually, it's not even really exposition so much as social commentary and criminal justice theories delivered as lunch conversations.

"Since we all know that education is the key to keeping kids off of drugs, we need to take a long look at the system that denies poor people access to good schools and why we pay our teachers so little" - a character

Yeah these were not good. I found Nicole Steele to be particularly bad for this; it seemed like her role on screen was to seek out mini-essays.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
I’ll forgive him for being a bit didactic since people have been begging for these reforms for my entire life and it never comes.

Angryhead
Apr 4, 2009

Don't call my name
Don't call my name
Alejandro




This thread bringing it up got me to finally watch We Own This City over the weekend (saw the first episode when it came out, generally liked it, but didn't keep up with it) and yeah agreed with all that's been said.
That scene in the first episode with the DOJ folks, especially the old white guy going "iPhones are no friend to the BPD" and the whole "But there's no way Trump even gets a nomination" part... it sticks out.
But almost all of the other parts of the show? Great.
And yeah of course seeing all those Wire alumni brings a smile to your face, worth watching for that alone.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.

Count Roland posted:

Yeah these were not good. I found Nicole Steele to be particularly bad for this; it seemed like her role on screen was to seek out mini-essays.

Was that the heavyish set black woman?

*checks*

Yes it was. Agreed. She did a great job delivering what was written for her and was good on the show throughout, but a lot of her dialogue felt forced, unnatural and stilted.

Jewmanji posted:

I’ll forgive him for being a bit didactic since people have been begging for these reforms for my entire life and it never comes.

Same, and none of it was enough to take me out of the show or ruin anything but it was very hamfisted and forced in a way I'd normally expect from a right wing media production rather than someone was accomplished as David Simon. There were better ways to handle communicating that information, IMO - where you can show and not tell it - but maybe limiting the series to 6 episodes factored into that and perhaps made the writers feel like they had to shoehorn that stuff in there with limited time.

It's pretty much my only real criticism of the show

BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Feb 12, 2023

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
I don't think her role was really any different than Colvin or Gus when it came to delivering expository dialogue (or the senior teacher that takes Prez under her wing). Which I mean, they weren't the best characters in the wire, largely for that reason. But that's always been his style. I think some of those speeches feel a bit didactic now, but I was pretty young the first time I saw the wire, and those moments were pretty edifying for me. It's ok for the show to have some overt thesis statements every once in a while. Also I get that it would irk people. Like, imagine having to write a storyline within an imagined Season 6 of the wire where you're trying to depict all the things wrong with the bail system. Court procedure is a fairly technical and abstruse subject, and it would take some time to elegantly unspool that through characterization rather than occasionally having Perlman just lay it all out in a quick diatribe of frustration about how broken that system is. I think all things considered the writers did a pretty stunning job of tackling the subject matter in various ways, some subtle, others not so.

Unrelated, but I was watching Andor earlier this month (highly recommended), and the whole device around the new national security law felt like it was very influenced by The Wire, in that it was a piece of background legislation whose affect you see on multiple people across the socioeconomic spectrum of the show in neat ways, whether its Andor's indefinite prison sentence of Mon Mothma's accounts being put under a microscope . The Wire was always great about showing that sort of butterfly effect, and I don't know of other shows that plant subtle seeds like that and let them grow and proliferate organically.

Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Feb 12, 2023

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Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020

BiggerBoat posted:

Same, and none of it was enough to take me out of the show or ruin anything but it was very hamfisted and forced in a way I'd normally expect from a right wing media production rather than someone was accomplished as David Simon. There were better ways to handle communicating that information, IMO - where you can show and not tell it - but maybe limiting the series to 6 episodes factored into that and perhaps made the writers feel like they had to shoehorn that stuff in there with limited time.

It's pretty much my only real criticism of the show

Jewmanji posted:

I don't think her role was really any different than Colvin or Gus when it came to delivering expository dialogue (or the senior teacher that takes Prez under her wing). Which I mean, they weren't the best characters in the wire, largely for that reason. But that's always been his style. I think some of those speeches feel a bit didactic now, but I was pretty young the first time I saw the wire, and those moments were pretty edifying for me. It's ok for the show to have some overt thesis statements every once in a while.

Really good observations and points here. I think Simon's brand has always been a kind of didactic authenticity (not that this is a new idea to his fans or anything). Sometimes he has his characters give speeches (like in We Own This City and Treme), but sometimes he lets actions or situations speak for themselves (like Generation Kill and The Corner). No matter how he does it, he's always exposing something wrong and saying something about it.

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