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the black husserl posted:Avon and Stringer were different. They had dreams. Stringer definitely, but Avon was just a less lethally-focused Marlo. That's why he was so firm about the corners with Stringer, because he cared less about the sensible business practices and more about maintaining his domain. cletepurcel posted:My understanding is that he rubbed down his dog before the fight with a chemical or something that made Cheese's dog slower. I would guess that it was some kind of lubricant that made it harder for the other dog to get a grip during the fight, but I'm certainly not an expert.
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Apr 23, 2013 15:02
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cletepurcel posted:As a side note, as utterly loathsome a character as Cheese is I never hate him as much as during the entire dog fight sequence. I know that wasn't their intent but still. I agree completely. A friend of mine is a vet, and some of the poo poo she had to deal with is just awful... Drug dealing I get, hating someone for something they did I understand, but forcing two otherwise innocent animals to kill one another for your amusement? 
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Apr 23, 2013 16:02
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Jerusalem posted:On an unrelated note, I just started reading Clockers and it's fun to encounter some of the stuff that got put into The Wire, like the cop asking the guy where to get a sideways baseball cap or the dealers bumping into cops at the movies and chatting casually with them like they were work colleagues. Richard Price wrote that into the show much like David Simon drops some things from Homicide into the show. The Clockers movie has Hassan Johnson and Fredro Starr (and sticky fingaz) as the project corner boys. Clockers is a great movie to pair to a show like the wire. A homicide investigation intertwine with the drug enterprise characters from the projects along with the citizens who just live their lives around the poo poo. You should definitely check the movie after the book if you haven't seen it.
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Apr 23, 2013 17:03
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Spoilers Below posted:Drug dealing I get, hating someone for something they did I understand, but forcing two otherwise innocent animals to kill one another for your amusement? To be fair Cheese felt really bad about it.
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Apr 23, 2013 19:24
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Spoilers Below posted:I agree completely. A friend of mine is a vet, and some of the poo poo she had to deal with is just awful... Drug dealing I get, hating someone for something they did I understand, but forcing two otherwise innocent animals to kill one another for your amusement? People disassociate things all the time as not being "like them." Dogs have extremely high intelligence and self awareness and a very similar emotional makeup to humans, but people can de...uh...personalize them and make them "dumb animals" that exist for their amusement, and therefore just use them as cruel entertainment and sport. It's the same way with humans - people have done that to other humans all of the time, and even in the context of The Wire, many people in power viewed the people in the streets as nothing more than animals as well, which made the contrast between a Herc and a Carver in how they saw things. (I grew up in Detroit and there's a HUGE pit-bull fighting underground here, and while I didn't -see- the fights, I knew of people that took part in them, and it was pretty much the mentality of what I speak.)
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Apr 23, 2013 21:02
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Randomly Specific posted:I would guess that it was some kind of lubricant that made it harder for the other dog to get a grip during the fight, but I'm certainly not an expert. (I used to be animal control so I know way too much about this poo poo)
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Apr 24, 2013 01:40
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You'll notice that Cheese's assistant (forgot his name) washes his dog with milk before the fight, which google seems to indicate is to neutralize things such as spicy stuff that might discourage the enemy dog from biting your dog (presumably this is a rule of the dogfight). As he does this, he spots the other people rubbing their hands on a blue towel first before rubbing the dog, implying that they're putting something on the dog that they shouldn't be.
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Apr 24, 2013 01:52
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I don't remember where I read this but I think it was some chemical on that rag that deterred the other dog from biting. That's why they showed them being washed down with milk or whatever, to clean that type of poo poo off, but you see them rub down the dog and later Cheese's goon finds the rag. I may just have read that elsewhere and it may not have been the case here, but either way it's some shady poo poo on top of already much shadier poo poo. edit: gently caress me
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Apr 24, 2013 01:52
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Randomly Specific posted:Stringer definitely, but Avon was just a less lethally-focused Marlo. That's why he was so firm about the corners with Stringer, because he cared less about the sensible business practices and more about maintaining his domain. Avon and Marlo are polar opposites. All Marlo cares about is his name, while Avon doesn't want anyone to know his name, as long as he keeps his territory. Avon represents the forces of traditional capitalism (sort of a famliy business thing) where Marlo is modern capitalism: pure greed in search of ever increasing profit, at any cost. The reason Avon didn't want to abandon the corners is because he believed they belonged to his family, not because he wanted his name to ring out. Also Stringer didn't really know anything about business. the black husserl fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Apr 24, 2013 |
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Apr 24, 2013 02:05
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the black husserl posted:The reason Avon didn't want to abandon the corners is because he believed they belonged to his family, not because he wanted his name to ring out. Pretty much, and him letting String run things during his first jail stint is a perfect display of this. It doesn't matter that String's running things--their half of the city is still theirs. Marlo has no String analogue to temper him, and I think part of that is because he simply won't let that happen. Chris talks, and sometimes Marlo listens, but that's as far as it goes. Prop Joe tries, and it kinda works for a while, but he eventually fails. You always hear about the Barksdales, but never the Stanfields. You hear about Marlo, though.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:22
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I think people seriously misinterpret Stringer's actions too. He wasn't some misunderstood genius who could have led Avon to better thing: he was scheming since season one to gain more power and he betrayed Avon/abused his privilege pretty much every chance he got. And he didn't understand poo poo about actually running things: remember Avon laughing at his impotent rage when Davis punks him? Avon was wise, he just couldn't handle Marlo and the police at the same time. Plus Stringer selling him out.
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Apr 24, 2013 03:52
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String's basically a cross between Lady Macbeth and Iago.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:03
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the black husserl posted:Avon and Marlo are polar opposites. All Marlo cares about is his name, while Avon doesn't want anyone to know his name, as long as he keeps his territory. Avon represents the forces of traditional capitalism (sort of a famliy business thing) where Marlo is modern capitalism: pure greed in search of ever increasing profit, at any cost. That is spot on and a great interpretation, thanks. the black husserl posted:I think people seriously misinterpret Stringer's actions too. He wasn't some misunderstood genius who could have led Avon to better thing: he was scheming since season one to gain more power and he betrayed Avon/abused his privilege pretty much every chance he got. And he didn't understand poo poo about actually running things: remember Avon laughing at his impotent rage when Davis punks him? I don't know about that. I'll definitely agree on the 'Stringer wasn't a genius' portion, but Stringer seemed very sincere with his desire to insulate Avon from the dangers of being the king. I don't read his actions as betrayal or abuse of privilege, but rather his way of trying to do things better for the both of them, because he really did love Avon like a brother. He just felt that with his 'education' and self-perceived calmer demeanor he could do a better job of managing the day to day while still looking out for Avon. The condo, all of that was to show Avon how they could get totally away from the streets and become legally bulletproof and legit.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:05
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Randomly Specific posted:I don't know about that. I'll definitely agree on the 'Stringer wasn't a genius' portion, but Stringer seemed very sincere with his desire to insulate Avon from the dangers of being the king. I don't read his actions as betrayal or abuse of privilege, but rather his way of trying to do things better for the both of them, because he really did love Avon like a brother. He just felt that with his 'education' and self-perceived calmer demeanor he could do a better job of managing the day to day while still looking out for Avon. The condo, all of that was to show Avon how they could get totally away from the streets and become legally bulletproof and legit. He insulated Avon largely as a power play; to run the organization the way he saw fit. Avon nearly getting shot by Omar was a convenient pretext for getting Avon to agree with the transfer of power.
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Apr 24, 2013 04:10
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On a side note, I dig the discussion of Gatsby in Season 2 that gets referenced later when McNulty finds out Stringer's books are "uncut".
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Apr 24, 2013 04:24
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the black husserl posted:On a side note, I dig the discussion of Gatsby in Season 2 that gets referenced later when McNulty finds out Stringer's books are "uncut". You mean when he finds out that Stringer's books are just for display, much like Gatsby's? As D says: "He's fronting with all them books, and not a single one has ever been opened" If that's what you mean, I always loving loved that too. I've also never once seen it brought up before, so kudos.
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Apr 24, 2013 09:16
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BattleCake posted:You'll notice that Cheese's assistant (forgot his name) washes his dog with milk before the fight, which google seems to indicate is to neutralize things such as spicy stuff that might discourage the enemy dog from biting your dog (presumably this is a rule of the dogfight). As he does this, he spots the other people rubbing their hands on a blue towel first before rubbing the dog, implying that they're putting something on the dog that they shouldn't be. It's common to trade dogs between each side to wash them before he fight to prevent anything bad being on their coat that might affect the other dog when biting. The milk washes it off, I guess, I don't know that much about it. A carpet cleaner guy once told me he'd been places he was pretty sure dog fights had happened and saw signs of whatever chemicals they use.
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Apr 24, 2013 14:40
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watt par posted:He insulated Avon largely as a power play; to run the organization the way he saw fit. Avon nearly getting shot by Omar was a convenient pretext for getting Avon to agree with the transfer of power. Oh I'll agree that the insulation worked to what he saw was the best way of doing business- he obviously thought he knew better than Avon on business matters for some time. But the feel I got from it was that he sincerely felt that it was also for Avon's own good that he handled things, from both the security and efficient business standpoint. He could have easily sabotaged Avon's early release if he wanted, and he could've done it without implicating Avon in the process. But he went through with the plan to get Avon out and set him up nicely and tried to show him how they could get out of the game. With Avon, Stringer plotted but it wasn't malicious plotting, up until he started meeting with Bunny.
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Apr 24, 2013 16:05
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the black husserl posted:Avon and Marlo are polar opposites. All Marlo cares about is his name, while Avon doesn't want anyone to know his name, as long as he keeps his territory. Avon represents the forces of traditional capitalism (sort of a famliy business thing) where Marlo is modern capitalism: pure greed in search of ever increasing profit, at any cost. I couldn't disagree with this interpretation of Avon more. Time and again you'll hear Avon talk about how weak he looks, about how the boy Marlo's punking him, about how he wants his corners. When it came to the streets, Avon absolutely wanted everybody to know who he is ("You know the name?" "Every mothafucka up in them towers know the name!") but when it came to the police, he was smart enough to know that a name ringing out on every corner in West Baltimore isn't enough for the police to get anything to stick to you, which is why even though some people in the BPD knew his name, they didn't have a photo or an address or a vehicle registered to his name or anything. On the street, it doesn't matter if the Escalade you're seen being chauffeured around in is registered in your name or not, but in a court of law, it does. I also somewhat disagree with the notion of Stringer being a double-crossing schemer from the beginning, but he definitely wasn't "right" about how to do business, nor was he as smart as we probably all thought he was on our first viewing. The way I've always viewed the diverging motivations of Avon and Stringer is this: Avon's driving principle was "who cares how much money we got and how much poo poo we run if our names don't ring out and no one knows about it?" and Stringer's driving principle was "who cares if our names don't ring out and no one knows about us if we're making money hand over fist and we run poo poo?"
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Apr 24, 2013 16:10
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Even on the first viewing I felt Stringer got exposed for his shortcomings on multiple occasions. His problem was that he was too street to play with the big boys, and too much wannabe businessman to fit in with the game. Stringer is the kind of guy who handles things fairly well when he's rehearsed and planned them out ahead of time, but tends to gently caress up when he's confronted with the differences between theory and practice. The 'board meeting' he holds with his corner boys is a prime example- he's in his element when he's holding his mug and explaining how they made more money with less corners and distributing the package to other crews. However, Poot is a front line soldier in the business who's out there with his rear end on the line and knows that part of his protection is the common knowledge that he has a badass organization behind him that will retaliate with overwhelming brutality to challenges. So he tells Stringer in his own eloquent way that it may be good dollars and sense business but it won't work long-term in the game, and Stringer flies off the handle because now the script he obviously put together for the meeting is blown. We get a much bigger example of that after Clay Davis screws him over, and his first notion is to send an expendable Slim out to kill him. I love the character of Stringer and the dynamic they have with him, but it showed in a lot of places how ultimately ill-suited he was for the game. Which was the point of the character, because he showed the same story that Randy would in S4- both very intelligent and potentially capable of great things, but both were trapped by their education and environment into dead ends.
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Apr 24, 2013 18:58
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:I couldn't disagree with this interpretation of Avon more. Time and again you'll hear Avon talk about how weak he looks, about how the boy Marlo's punking him, about how he wants his corners. When it came to the streets, Avon absolutely wanted everybody to know who he is ("You know the name?" "Every mothafucka up in them towers know the name!") but when it came to the police, he was smart enough to know that a name ringing out on every corner in West Baltimore isn't enough for the police to get anything to stick to you, which is why even though some people in the BPD knew his name, they didn't have a photo or an address or a vehicle registered to his name or anything. On the street, it doesn't matter if the Escalade you're seen being chauffeured around in is registered in your name or not, but in a court of law, it does. I also somewhat disagree with the notion of Stringer being a double-crossing schemer from the beginning, but he definitely wasn't "right" about how to do business, nor was he as smart as we probably all thought he was on our first viewing. Yeah I agree with you. The way Avon was just completely incredulous when Tilghman shot him down is a good example of this. Avon wanting to stay under the radar to police was completely separate to his desire to be feared on the street. He managed a perfect balance until McNulty started stirring poo poo up.
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Apr 24, 2013 19:11
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Marlo and Avon aren't the same though. Marlo didn't care how his name rang out, as long as it did. Avon respected stuff like the Sunday truce, etc. Marlo was like some alien looking at how Avon did it and just wanted to go from point A to point B even if it meant that he had to drive over a few grandmas and puppies on the way over there. Basically: 
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Apr 24, 2013 20:09
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Avon knew there was a limit to what you could do without the police coming down on you hard and he played within those limits while trying to maximise the profits and his reputation on the street. Marlo didn't care for rules, to a degree at least, since he was still hiding bodies rather than just dropping people. Money was a secondary thing to Marlo, something that just happened to come alongside his reputation and power. Stringer "just" wanted to make money. He had correctly identified that once you get far enough removed from the street the police stops being an issue altogether, he just couldn't convince Avon that it was the right path to take. As has been mentioned (and we've been over this a couple of times in the various Wire threads) Stringer isn't really as smart as he thinks he is, he just read some marketing and business strategy at the community college and he's lording that over the street level guys who barely went to school. He has some of the right ideas though and the whole New Day Co-Op. Mainly that corners don't matter, product does and one of his biggest victories was probably getting the street level dealers to accept that when normally they would just get to fighting each other. He is still incredibly naive when it comes to actual real business though, as shown by his encounter with Clay Davis and the entire construction project. He is entirely unaccustomed to people not jumping when he says jump.
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Apr 24, 2013 20:18
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MrBling posted:He is still incredibly naive when it comes to actual real business though, as shown by his encounter with Clay Davis and the entire construction project. He is entirely unaccustomed to people not jumping when he says jump. Which, I think, is the only time we see a character switch over from the "Do this right or get killed" of the streets to the "How much more am I going to get paid to actually do my job?" of the bureaucracy? The closest we see in the other direction is Herc in season 5 working for Levy and promptly becoming king poo poo of "actually gets paid" mountain...
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Apr 24, 2013 20:25
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Randomly Specific posted:Even on the first viewing I felt Stringer got exposed for his shortcomings on multiple occasions. His problem was that he was too street to play with the big boys, and too much wannabe businessman to fit in with the game. Stringer is the kind of guy who handles things fairly well when he's rehearsed and planned them out ahead of time, but tends to gently caress up when he's confronted with the differences between theory and practice. Do you know what I see when I look at you? I see a man without a country.
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Apr 24, 2013 20:29
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The Rooster posted:Do you know what I see when I look at you? I see a man without a country. Bam, nailed it. I actually forgot that line, but that's the sum of Stringer right there.
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Apr 24, 2013 23:54
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Randomly Specific posted:Oh I'll agree that the insulation worked to what he saw was the best way of doing business- he obviously thought he knew better than Avon on business matters for some time. But the feel I got from it was that he sincerely felt that it was also for Avon's own good that he handled things, from both the security and efficient business standpoint. Yeah I didn't mean it as a malicious thing, like get Avon out the way. But obviously he was convinced he could run things better, and limiting Avon's level of hands on activity was his way of accomplishing that. I think he was legitimately surprised Avon moved to get back in charge as quickly as he did, and it's not as if there weren't conflicts over management while Avon was in prison. It speaks to Stringer's naivete that he thought it'd be a permanent situation with him running things even after Avon was released. Really when you think about Stringer's level of competence he's no different than any run-of-the-mill MBA-grad middle manager. Kinda surprised he didn't bust out Who Moved My Cheese? when explaining to his crew how he was gonna give up a tower to Prop Joe. Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 01:39
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:I couldn't disagree with this interpretation of Avon more. Time and again you'll hear Avon talk about how weak he looks, about how the boy Marlo's punking him, about how he wants his corners. When it came to the streets, Avon absolutely wanted everybody to know who he is ("You know the name?" "Every mothafucka up in them towers know the name!") The name was "barksdale" instead of Avon. Big difference between hearing your name ring out and keeping the west side dynasty going. It was Avon's father that really started the Barksdales and he respects that tradition and history. I agree in that Avon definitely takes it personally, and he wants to be respected and feared on the street. But he and Marlo mean two different things when they say 'name'.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:00
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I think where you really see the difference between them is in how they handle the 'little people'. Avon, if you're going with the family business model, had a real sense of his place in the community. He interacted with people in ways beyond simply handing out money- the community center, the East/West game, etc. That game in particular had the key element there- Avon upbraids the ref for not standing up to him, but then finishes by making him walk away. Both messages are delivered, now he's done with it. Marlo on the other hand is challenged in the slightest way after blatantly pissing on the security guy's leg, and his answer is to coldly tell him off and then go order his murder. Marlo was about his name because his name was power, the power to go where he wanted and do what he wanted to do.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:33
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the black husserl posted:The name was "barksdale" instead of Avon. Big difference between hearing your name ring out and keeping the west side dynasty going. It was Avon's father that really started the Barksdales and he respects that tradition and history. Yeah Butchie comments to both Prop Joe and later Omar over Stringer trying to maneuver Omar and Brother Mouzone into taking each other out about how the Barksdales aren't to be trusted and both Avon and his dad were pure evil, and Stringer too. For Avon it's more about maintaining the family's name.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:41
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Yup, and these are the scenes Random was talking about, watch side by side to highlight the differences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qT0nX6I6iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwuckTkE7T4
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Apr 25, 2013 03:58
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Holy poo poo. The whole time I thought Avon was just being cruel and domineering by commanding him to "Walk away", but he's actually giving him a chance to exit the situation without having to challenge Avon. He's letting him keep (what remains of) his authority and self-respect. Avon's definitely still being an rear end in a top hat, but I see it in a whole different light now.
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Apr 25, 2013 04:47
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Yeah and the important thing is, if it were Marlo (not that he gives a gently caress about community-oriented stuff like the basketball game to begin with, but if he did) that ref would be dead. He also would have killed Cutty the second he tried to walk away without question. In fact the first time I saw season 3 I was expecting Avon to do that and was surprised by his humane response. (On a tangent note - I've always found it funny that Cutty put up Avon's picture on the wall of the gym, despite Avon telling him not to.) The thing that strikes me about the security guard scene is that Marlo goes out of his way to provoke the guy to start with by stealing the lollipop in plain sight. It's so goddamn petty - it's not like word would have gotten out one way or another about the incident. The guard wasn't going to brag in the street about how he stood up to Marlo and Marlo buried the guy in a vacant anyway so what was the point? It sort of reminds me of the end of No Country for Old Men, where Chigurh kills Moss' wife for no other reason than to fulfill his "promise" to him, even though Moss is dead already. At least with the ref Avon had a legitimate reason to start yelling at the guy. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 05:44
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It's been ages since I've watched that episode, but does anything happen to Marlo prior to the store scene that might trigger his insecurity, and make him abuse the guard like that? Your calling it a petty act definitely resonated, it was so ridiculous it almost feels like he was trying to get the guy to call him out, so Marlo could make a point. Or I guess he was just always that in need of validation, and there isn't an immediate antecedent?
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Apr 25, 2013 06:12
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Thaddius the Large posted:It's been ages since I've watched that episode, but does anything happen to Marlo prior to the store scene that might trigger his insecurity, and make him abuse the guard like that? Your calling it a petty act definitely resonated, it was so ridiculous it almost feels like he was trying to get the guy to call him out, so Marlo could make a point. Or I guess he was just always that in need of validation, and there isn't an immediate antecedent? He got cleaned out in poker.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:13
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The Rooster posted:He got cleaned out in poker. Ah, poo poo yeah that'd do it.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:17
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The Rooster posted:He got cleaned out in poker. It's definitely the impetus for him to punk the guard, but there's a pretty clear period - I wanna say at least a day? - that passes between that and the murder.
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Apr 25, 2013 06:27
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cletepurcel posted:It's definitely the impetus for him to punk the guard, but there's a pretty clear period - I wanna say at least a day? - that passes between that and the murder. I thought it was just as he came out from the poker game? Edit: Misread what you wrote. Although I guess if the guard didn't confront Marlo, he wouldn't have been killed.
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Apr 25, 2013 07:26
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I think Avon's various community connections also demonstrate that he understands the difference between fear and respect. Cutty comes to Avon for money because he respects him and thinks of him as someone who cares about the neighborhood. Avon cares about respect, and he himself has a deep respect for certain things when he sees them in others. He clearly admires the way Cutty is so up-front about leaving The Game. Marlo just wants power and doesn't really care about the fear/respect ratio as long as people know who the boss is. He would have killed Cutty for having the gall to quit on him, to inconvenience him.
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Apr 25, 2013 19:35
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Had to split the latest write-up into two (I'll try to keep them down a bit in future) and it split across pages so I've edited it. Sorry for a triple post.
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 14:23
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