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Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




gingerberger posted:

Chris seems like he has an emotional world, he seems like a human (ie beating the poo poo out of dookies dad).

Ehhh, disagree a little bit. That scene is pretty much the only time we ever actually see him show any emotion. It definitely gives us a powerful hint into exactly why he turned out the way he did (and, weirdly, is probably his most sympathetic moment), but apart from that he's basically a stone-faced remorseless killer. He obviously has emotions, but he seems like he learned how to suppress them a long time ago.

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Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Chris is shown to have a family of his own though, one he's very attached to as well. It's only that Marlo and his work seem to come first to him which, while softening him up a bit, makes him even more terrifying in a way.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Stare-Out posted:

Chris is shown to have a family of his own though, one he's very attached to as well. It's only that Marlo and his work seem to come first to him which, while softening him up a bit, makes him even more terrifying in a way.

Putting his job above his family makes him kind of a bizarro-McNulty, I guess.

bucketybuck
Apr 8, 2012


gingerberger posted:

I think her and Marlo are both genuinely sociopaths, snoop just gets her hands dirty.

But how is Snoop any worse than any of the other henchmen, like Wee-Bay or Slim Charles?

Wee-bay might be emotional but he has killed dozens of people and showed zero respect for human life. And fans love Slim Charles but he's the one that uttered the horrific throwaway line "Murder ain't no thing...", not long after coolly shooting some kid on Marlos corner.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




bucketybuck posted:

But how is Snoop any worse than any of the other henchmen, like Wee-Bay or Slim Charles?

Wee-bay might be emotional but he has killed dozens of people and showed zero respect for human life.

And let's not forget that one time when he casually raped a dying woman! Wee-Bay's definitely a fucker.

Slim...is unquestionably a remorseless murderer, but if you can say anything for him, it's that he only murders people who are in the game.

Not that that's ok, but it at least puts him a cut above some of the other murderers, I guess.

nooneofconsequence
Oct 29, 2012

she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.



Snoop was shown to legitimately enjoy murdering people. Chris was more cold. Whether it was because it was simply his job or if there was something more to it, I don't know. Wee-bey seemed more indifferent, but we never got to witness him actually kill someone, to my recollection, so who's to really say.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004



Wee Bay was also the "tap tap tap" shooter (the murder scene is where Bunk and Nutty have the "gently caress" scene), it's pretty loving cold blooded shooting some poor girl in the face.

gingerberger
Jun 20, 2014

Gotta love my Squirtle Swag


Ainsley McTree posted:

Ehhh, disagree a little bit. That scene is pretty much the only time we ever actually see him show any emotion. It definitely gives us a powerful hint into exactly why he turned out the way he did (and, weirdly, is probably his most sympathetic moment), but apart from that he's basically a stone-faced remorseless killer. He obviously has emotions, but he seems like he learned how to suppress them a long time ago.

To me murderer with a lot of baggage is better than total sociopath. Seems like Chris can at least conceptualize of abstract morality. I honestly don't know if snoop can. Which is "worse" is probably a matter of opinion; however I think sociopath is definitely scarier.

ChikoDemono
Jul 10, 2007

He said that he would stay forever.

Forever wasn't very long...




It seems to me more like Slim, Wee-Bay, Chris all knew what they were doing was some evil poo poo and accepted it as a job. They are killers and they make no qualms about it.

Snoop, who may be a part of the newer generation, didn't see it as such. She doesn't empathize like the others do. She doesn't see a problem with killing. Hell, if given the word, she would probably try to murder Clay Davis. She wouldn't see the difference in murder and assassination.

Remember that scene when she and Chris were hiding out from Omar? Chris is distraught, worried about his family. Snoop didn't understand why Chris was so upset and mentioned that they should bring gifts to his kids. Chris had to explain why he couldn't see his family.

Edit: also, Chris beat Bug's dad to death, not Dukie's

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.



ChikoDemono posted:

It seems to me more like Slim, Wee-Bay, Chris all knew what they were doing was some evil poo poo and accepted it as a job. They are killers and they make no qualms about it.

This rings true to me. To put it another way: can you see Snoop getting out of the game? I can see the others retiring (not necessarily by choice, mind you), but Snoop just seems like she's a permanent fixture. Even Marlo gets out of the game.

Finndo
Dec 27, 2005

Title Text goes here.


Call me shallow but I hate Snoop because of the way she talks and to a lesser extent that smug frog expression on her face.

Edit: Also I think she is an awful actress. She is just a bizarre human sort of woodenly playing herself.

Finndo fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Aug 8, 2014

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Snoop's great, y'all are weird.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Finndo posted:

Call me shallow but I hate Snoop because of the way she talks and to a lesser extent that smug frog expression on her face.

Edit: Also I think she is an awful actress. She is just a bizarre human sort of woodenly playing herself.

You're probably already aware of this fact and are just making reference to it, but on the off chance you aren't, she isn't actually an actress and pretty much is playing her actual self.

I'm not going to laud her performance and say that she should be in more things, but she's definitely quite unlike anything else I've ever seen on television, and I like her for that alone.

Finndo
Dec 27, 2005

Title Text goes here.


Yeah, her RL persona is something else I don't like about her. She definitely dominated her scenes but on rewatching I just so much more appreciate watching Marlo as a perfectly executed villain, compared to her freak show.

Derv1sh
May 24, 2005

Oh, come on, don’t leave your Uncle Teabag hanging

comes along bort posted:

I'm not so sure Templeton fabricated stories just for career advancement purposes as much as it seemed the only way to ensure he would have a career in journalism at all given the ongoing consolidation of ownership and shutting down desks.

No, didnt mean he did it for his career. More for self preservation. Against a backdrop of cuts and redundancies (buy outs), if a reporter doesnt deliver for a prolonged period then they're shitcanned. The constant pressure makes reporters react in differebt ways. One would be to try and stand out by filing something extraordinary.

comes along bort posted:

I'm not so sure Templeton fabricated stories just for career advancement purposes as much as it seemed the only way to ensure he would have a career in journalism at all given the ongoing consolidation of ownership and shutting down desks.

comes along bort posted:

I'm not so sure Templeton fabricated stories just for career advancement purposes as much as it seemed the only way to ensure he would have a career in journalism at all given the ongoing consolidation of ownership and shutting down desks.

No, didnt mean he did it for his career. More for self preservation. Against a backdrop of cuts and redundancies (buy outs), if a reporter doesnt deliver for a prolonged period then they're shitcanned. The constant pressure makes reporters react in differebt ways. One would be to try and stand out by filing something extraordinary.

Its easy to see how Templeton could conceivably act the way he does. Its still exaggerated though. No newsdesk exec would pander to a reporter in such a way.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Chris questioned at least one of the hits ordered by Marlo so he has some conscience or empathy. Chris' perceptiveness when Michael asked for the hit on Bug's father, and the way he carried it out, hinted to me that Chris may have been abused. Either way, more evidence for empathy.

As for Templeton, I don't think his name was an accident. He was a rat fucker.


edit; added part about empathy

wormil fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 8, 2014

LloydDobler
Oct 15, 2005

You shared it with a dick.



ChikoDemono posted:

It seems to me more like Slim, Wee-Bay, Chris all knew what they were doing was some evil poo poo and accepted it as a job. They are killers and they make no qualms about it.

Snoop, who may be a part of the newer generation, didn't see it as such. She doesn't empathize like the others do. She doesn't see a problem with killing. Hell, if given the word, she would probably try to murder Clay Davis. She wouldn't see the difference in murder and assassination.

Remember that scene when she and Chris were hiding out from Omar? Chris is distraught, worried about his family. Snoop didn't understand why Chris was so upset and mentioned that they should bring gifts to his kids. Chris had to explain why he couldn't see his family.

Edit: also, Chris beat Bug's dad to death, not Dukie's

On this subject, one of the best things about seasons 4 and 5 is the development of Mike, the kid that Chris mentors into a sociopath. He's always so outside of the other kids, not much talk and all action. He's a defender of the people close to him but ruthless and fearless to anyone else. I always thought of him as a concurrent Chris backstory, and they really connect it with the beating of Bug's dad.

KORNOLOGY
Aug 9, 2006


LloydDobler posted:

On this subject, one of the best things about seasons 4 and 5 is the development of Mike, the kid that Chris mentors into a sociopath. He's always so outside of the other kids, not much talk and all action. He's a defender of the people close to him but ruthless and fearless to anyone else. I always thought of him as a concurrent Chris backstory, and they really connect it with the beating of Bug's dad.


In one of his interviews, the guy who plays Marlo mentioned how he imagines Marlo seeing Michael as a lot like him (ya Marlo orders Michael hit but he would do that to anyone, the man is incapable of being personal about anyone but himself). And the last episode very clearly demonstrates Michael filling Omar's role. I've never seen or read any piece on The Wire about why they chose to have Michael be the product of these specific characters, but no other character I can think of right now seems to be able to trace their influences so directly to characters we the audience actually know.

It wasn't until I typed that last paragraph out that I appreciated just how much Michael loses everything personal and just sort of fades into the system, not just in the plot but in the actual show where who he's with and where he's living were such strong ways for us to visibly understand him as a person. Dookie and Randy only had glimpses of a personal identity/homelife because they had gone through so much already they didn't really expect anything good to happen to them. But Michael did everything right and ended up a common criminal for it. What is that supposed to mean?

frenton
Aug 15, 2005

devil soup


KORNOLOGY posted:

What is that supposed to mean?

The game is the game. Always.

Konstantin
Jun 20, 2005
And the Lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

The interesting thing about Snoop is the fact that The Game is extremely male dominated, so she has to be even more brutal to overcome that prejudice. I can't be the only one who thought she was a teenage boy whose voice hadn't changed when she first appeared. Brings up an interesting question, why are criminal organizations in general so patriarchal?

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!


Konstantin posted:

The interesting thing about Snoop is the fact that The Game is extremely male dominated, so she has to be even more brutal to overcome that prejudice. I can't be the only one who thought she was a teenage boy whose voice hadn't changed when she first appeared. Brings up an interesting question, why are criminal organizations in general so patriarchal?

General conception. It's not like the hood is on the fore-front of social justice and an understanding of gender roles.

EDIT: I'd also argue that frankly it's no different from the police either. Kima is the only female we see in the police, and Pearlman is the only woman in the law side of things. Part of why Kima shines is the comparison to her male counterparts, and the perception in the department of women.

I'm rewatching Season 4 and Prez is about to put the call into Daniels about Randy. It just makes me so sad to see Carver get wrapped up in it, try to do the right thing, and ultimately feel the failure harder than anyone else aside from Randy. I really appreciate how Season 4 didn't pull any emotional punches. The bond between Prez and his kids feels genuine, and Carver's concern for Randy feel genuine. It makes it that much harder.

Also, I think there's been a lack of discussion on the comparison between the kids in season 4 and the adults. We're sympathetic to a lot of these characters because of how they're written, but the difference is that we see the kids become who they will be. We consider Avon, Stringer, et al as terrible people. Heck, Marlo we consider to be the most ruthless person in the show but how did he get there? What happened? I think there's a sympathy that's allowed for even the "bad" guys due to the system failing them.

Boywhiz88 fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Aug 9, 2014

twerking on the railroad
Jun 23, 2007

Get on my level


Boywhiz88 posted:

.

EDIT: I'd also argue that frankly it's no different from the police either. Kima is the only female we see in the police, and Pearlman is the only woman in the law side of things. Part of why Kima shines is the comparison to her male counterparts, and the perception in the department of women.


Uhhhhhh beadie? That woman McNulty talks to before planning out the murders in season 5?

bucketybuck
Apr 8, 2012


Boywhiz88 posted:

General conception. It's not like the hood is on the fore-front of social justice and an understanding of gender roles.

EDIT: I'd also argue that frankly it's no different from the police either. Kima is the only female we see in the police, and Pearlman is the only woman in the law side of things. Part of why Kima shines is the comparison to her male counterparts, and the perception in the department of women.

Or to paraphrase McNulty, "Only met two female police worth a drat and both were lesbians".

frenton
Aug 15, 2005

devil soup


Skeesix posted:

Uhhhhhh beadie? That woman McNulty talks to before planning out the murders in season 5?

Ah yes, the very significant character, That Woman McNulty Talks To.

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!


And Beadie wasn't city police. She took the job because it was relatively easy and she could make sure her family was taken care of. They comment on how she's completely green when she starts the investigation but at the end, she's real police. Also, I feel like a lot of the behaviors geared towards Beadie early on, specifically from the State Police, feels like there's an element of talking down to her.

Again, we don't see many women characters but I'd say they're all fairly strong, aside from Donette. And my comment was specifically geared to make the comparison between the patriarchy in both sides of the game.

Finndo
Dec 27, 2005

Title Text goes here.


You are underestimating Donnette's special Complaining Powers.

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



Gale :eyepop:

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.




Hahaha I went in the opposite direction but yep.

He really doesn't seem to have any characteristics aside from being the harbinger of poo poo. If you compare him to, I guess Rawls is his Homicide Department equivalent? it's season-five-problems.txt right there.

bentacos
Oct 9, 2012


I finished the series for the first time about a week ago. I decided to take a break from it before doing a rewatch, so I started watching Treme. The first thing I thought was "Since when does Bunk not wear a suit?!"

I'm saving a rewatch of The Wire until I can convince some friends to watch it. I watched it all off of Amazon, but is there any way to listen to the commentaries beyond buying the DVDs? I hate the idea of having to switch discs all the time, but I won't ever entertain an option that I don't pay for.

gingerberger
Jun 20, 2014

Gotta love my Squirtle Swag


bentacos posted:

I finished the series for the first time about a week ago. I decided to take a break from it before doing a rewatch, so I started watching Treme. The first thing I thought was "Since when does Bunk not wear a suit?!"

I'm saving a rewatch of The Wire until I can convince some friends to watch it. I watched it all off of Amazon, but is there any way to listen to the commentaries beyond buying the DVDs? I hate the idea of having to switch discs all the time, but I won't ever entertain an option that I don't pay for.

This is one of the few shows I was very happy to pay for.

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

CUNT


bentacos posted:

I finished the series for the first time about a week ago. I decided to take a break from it before doing a rewatch, so I started watching Treme. The first thing I thought was "Since when does Bunk not wear a suit?!"

I'm saving a rewatch of The Wire until I can convince some friends to watch it. I watched it all off of Amazon, but is there any way to listen to the commentaries beyond buying the DVDs? I hate the idea of having to switch discs all the time, but I won't ever entertain an option that I don't pay for.

Buy the DVDs then get a non-disc version you may not have paid for for the convenience?

doug fuckey
Jun 7, 2007

hella greenbacks

I think the Treme thread died, but it's also such a great show. Much less cynical than the wire, but just as real.

gingerberger
Jun 20, 2014

Gotta love my Squirtle Swag


Zesty Mordant posted:

I think the Treme thread died, but it's also such a great show. Much less cynical than the wire, but just as real.

I watched the first 4 episodes when it came out and didn't really get into it. It felt like it was trying to hard or something. Been intending to go back and watch the whole thing, just haven't gotten around to it.

Asbury
Mar 23, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3363 days!


Hair Elf

gingerberger posted:

I watched the first 4 episodes when it came out and didn't really get into it. It felt like it was trying too hard or something.

Same here. I lost interest about halfway through the first season. Which is weird, because I loved the music and liked seeing Wire actors in new roles. But something about the show was just strangely off-putting and vaguely hypocritical. In particular, I'm thinking of the scene very early on, when the tour buses come in to the neighborhood and the tourists sit behind the windows, taking pictures of the devastation. While I'm sure that really did happen, it also had the side-effect of implicating the show viewers as a part of an observer culture--after all, we're watching the devastation, too--and the impact got lost somewhere in the commentary.

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.



I take the tour bus scene as the opposite really. The tourists are just there to gawk at the destruction, not to understand why it happened, or how the people are coping with it. The show was trying to explain why people stayed or came back after the storm, and how the political corruption in the city ensured that the problems that resulted in Katrina were never really going to get fixed.

thathonkey
Jul 17, 2012


Shredded Hen

I'd recommend giving Treme another shot. It's not like "if you liked the Wire, you'll like Treme" necessarily but it is a high quality show and I think it gets better as it goes along.

the culminator
Oct 29, 2012


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM

this scene really encapsulates recent events.

"Pretty soon, drat near everybody on every corner is your fuckin enemy"

Boywhiz88
Sep 11, 2005

floating 26" off da ground. BURR!


the culminator posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM

this scene really encapsulates recent events.

"Pretty soon, drat near everybody on every corner is your fuckin enemy"

Everyone goes nuts for Bubbles but I think Bunny Colvin is the series most sympathetic character by FAR. Because he's the only person in power trying to make a difference, make it work. I'd be very interested to sit in on police meetings and see how far they are from what we see in The Wire. I hope one day policing will involve understanding the people they are arresting and trying to better the community. Maybe they're a junkie who should just get their ride home, gently caress a humble. But here we are....


EDIT: SUPERCUT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70eU840lc38

SHEEEEEEEEIT

Boywhiz88 fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Aug 14, 2014

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Boywhiz88 posted:

Everyone goes nuts for Bubbles but I think Bunny Colvin is the series most sympathetic character by FAR. Because he's the only person in power trying to make a difference, make it work.


To some extent. But even he's guilty of not really giving a poo poo about the junkies or the dealers. The whole reason he does the hamsterdam thing is, to paraphrase his words, "to save the parts of his district that are still worth saving." You get the feeling that he thinks everybody involved with the game is part of a plague that he's not interested in curing, he just wants to quarantine it so everybody else can get on with their lives without having to worry about it.

Which, to be fair, is a heck of a lot more than anyone else in the department seems to care about it.

But then you have that scene where he's talking to the deacon (a real life ex-drug lord, which I loving love as a casting choice) who's pointing out that life in hamsterdam is hell, and you can see Colvin fighting back a migraine thinking "goddamn it, deacon, I don't wanna have to think about this."

To his credit, he does think about it, and genuinely makes efforts to help out with it, but it took someone pointing it out to him before he actually saw it.

So I guess in the end, you're right, but at least at first, his goals with hamsterdam were only partially well-intentioned. Which again, is a gently caress of a lot more well-intentioned than anyone else in the show is. But still.

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drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



How much heroin were the Greeks actually bringing in? It seems like they are the only guys around doing the actual importing straight from the source, and I think I remember someone saying the co-op only gets a couple dozen kilos at a time but the time they seized a shipment disguised as pigments it was like hundreds of kilos.

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