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armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Partial Octopus posted:

So my friend and I have a lot of experience top roping and lead climbing in the gym but we've never done outdoor climbing. We looked up some beginner outdoor climbs in our area and found some top rope spots.

Is it a terrible idea for us to go and top rope outdoors with only gym experience? I looked up instructions on how to tie into an anchor. It seems pretty simple. Mostly just posting here as a sanity check before I go and get us killed by missing something stupid.

I was planning on using this technique that I found assuming the anchor at the top is similar. https://www.climbing.com/skills/bolted-toprope-anchors/
I would of course practice tying the knot at home or at the gym. I have no experience repelling, so I would hike back down around to the beginning of the climb after setting up the rope.

Please tell me if I'm being dumb.

It's definitely best to have someone with experience sanity check what you are doing to start. That said, setting up a safe system on bolted toprope anchors is the easiest of the possible scenarios you might encounter, and the setup shown in that link is safe if done right. There are some things to consider though that aren't discussed there (this is just what comes to mind immediately):

- Assessing the condition of the bolts themselves
- Proper extension of the anchor with respect to the cliff edge


If the area is relatively popular, you may find that other climbers there are happy to sanity check your setup. Or if you're in an area near someone here, I suspect one of us would get check stuff out for you.

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Partial Octopus
Feb 4, 2006





Thanks for the feedback anyone. I think I'll definitely find someone more experienced to tag along.

If anyone here lives in Philly and wants to climb shoot me a PM!

Sound_man
Aug 25, 2004
Rocking to the 80s

Hey Denver folks- I might head that way in early May for some climbing with a coworker. He climbs in the 5.10s and I'm in the under .10 range, both sport only. He would like to do a 14,000 footer hike, I'm not as interested in that but willing to tag along if I can't find a different belay partner for that day. We are flying into Denver on Sunday the 5th and have to be back in the city proper the night of the 9th for work on the 10th. We will bring all the gear we need. What areas would you all suggest? We don't need to stay in Denver during the climbing time but will need an area with hotel/hostel/air BnB so nothing too remote.

No multi pitch experience either but between now and then we could work on that. I do have a full rack from setting anchors so mixed routes are ok too, just not ready for full trad.

Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003



Pillbug

One month until I can start bouldering outdoors again. Woo

meowmeowmeowmeow
Jan 4, 2017


Go with someone who can double check your work the first few times. The concepts are straight forward, but the potential results of a mistake are death.

I've taught a lot of people to build anchors and generally everyone makes a simple mistake or two their first dozen anchors before the are consistently correct.

The hard part isn't knowing what is right, it's identifying the edge cases that look very similar to the correct setup but aren't.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Sound_man posted:

Hey Denver folks- I might head that way in early May for some climbing with a coworker. He climbs in the 5.10s and I'm in the under .10 range, both sport only. He would like to do a 14,000 footer hike, I'm not as interested in that but willing to tag along if I can't find a different belay partner for that day. We are flying into Denver on Sunday the 5th and have to be back in the city proper the night of the 9th for work on the 10th. We will bring all the gear we need. What areas would you all suggest? We don't need to stay in Denver during the climbing time but will need an area with hotel/hostel/air BnB so nothing too remote.

No multi pitch experience either but between now and then we could work on that. I do have a full rack from setting anchors so mixed routes are ok too, just not ready for full trad.

He should be prepared for longer approaches and lots of snow in early May for a 14er. Maybe he is aware but May is is when I start skiing them (Gray's, Torrey's, Quandary, etc).

As for climbing in Denver I would suggest clear Creek canyon and devil's head. I can send you a list of it helps. CCC for easy access, devil's head for good views. You can go to Boulder canyon if you want as well but my opinion is it is basically the same as CCC but not as good in the range you are looking. I will just be back climbing and could maybe meet up when your buddy is out hiking.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



armorer posted:

It's definitely best to have someone with experience sanity check what you are doing to start. That said, setting up a safe system on bolted toprope anchors is the easiest of the possible scenarios you might encounter, and the setup shown in that link is safe if done right. There are some things to consider though that aren't discussed there (this is just what comes to mind immediately):

- Assessing the condition of the bolts theselves
- Proper extension of the anchor with respect to the cliff edge


If the area is relatively popular, you may find that other climbers there are happy to sanity check your setup. Or if you're in an area near someone here, I suspect one of us would get check stuff out for you.

I do agree but I also watched videos and read a book and I was fine. If you are at all smart you will be ok. But if you can find someone to teach you (who actually knows stuff) that is good too.

A lot of the stuff I see people "teaching" outside is not good at all so be wary of that.

ShaneB
Oct 21, 2002




Also in all honesty 14ers are kinda.... Ehhhh

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


Partial Octopus posted:

So my friend and I have a lot of experience top roping and lead climbing in the gym but we've never done outdoor climbing. We looked up some beginner outdoor climbs in our area and found some top rope spots.

Is it a terrible idea for us to go and top rope outdoors with only gym experience? I looked up instructions on how to tie into an anchor. It seems pretty simple. Mostly just posting here as a sanity check before I go and get us killed by missing something stupid.

I was planning on using this technique that I found assuming the anchor at the top is similar. https://www.climbing.com/skills/bolted-toprope-anchors/
I would of course practice tying the knot at home or at the gym. I have no experience repelling, so I would hike back down around to the beginning of the climb after setting up the rope.

Please tell me if I'm being dumb.

Yer gonna die

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


Sound_man posted:

Hey Denver folks- I might head that way in early May for some climbing with a coworker. He climbs in the 5.10s and I'm in the under .10 range, both sport only. He would like to do a 14,000 footer hike, I'm not as interested in that but willing to tag along if I can't find a different belay partner for that day. We are flying into Denver on Sunday the 5th and have to be back in the city proper the night of the 9th for work on the 10th. We will bring all the gear we need. What areas would you all suggest? We don't need to stay in Denver during the climbing time but will need an area with hotel/hostel/air BnB so nothing too remote.

No multi pitch experience either but between now and then we could work on that. I do have a full rack from setting anchors so mixed routes are ok too, just not ready for full trad.

May 5 is still going to be very tucked in for snow at altitude even in dry years. This year has been very good for snow. If your pal is comfortable with long approaches, avy analysis, and snow climbing, Iím sure thereís something you could scare up.

If not, well. Yer also gonna die.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



ShaneB posted:

Also in all honesty 14ers are kinda.... Ehhhh

They are only good for skiing.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



remote control carnivore posted:

May 5 is still going to be very tucked in for snow at altitude even in dry years. This year has been very good for snow. If your pal is comfortable with long approaches, avy analysis, and snow climbing, I’m sure there’s something you could scare up.

If not, well. Yer also gonna die.

You can pretty much always hike Quandary with a pair of micro spikes. It you really want to do one.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Hauki posted:

No idea frankly, going with someone/people substantially more experienced than me and I hope Iím not dragging them down, haha. Iíve still only done a few gym 10cs, so whatever that translates to outdoors.

Honestly Shelf climbs a lot like the gym so I would expect you will be able to climb pretty hard. Here are some climbs to do imo:

5.8
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106749096/large-marge (MP only give it 2 stars but I find it a very fun 5.8)

5.9
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105761877/chip-off-the-block
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105761226/the-opportunist

5.10
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105749122/suburbia
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105865038/fire-it-up
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105748702/spinney-dan
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105756946/the-dune
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/110108712/i-am-a-viking
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105752899/flashback-to-acid-beach
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108538316/soprano
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106169770/jasonbeckercom (Quite Classic)
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/107025270/season-down-under

5.11
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105753565/village-idiot
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105748690/regroovable (Super dope route)
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/110386865/flakeus-maximus

Hauki
May 11, 2010





Awesome, thanks for all the route info! Iíll take a look over all these tomorrow night, Iím psyched to get outdoors again.

Put in a solid two-plus hours tonight at the gym and felt reasonably good, although I was pumped by the end and bailed on a couple things I think shouldíve been doable. Shout-out to Shane for flashing the 10b Iíve been badgering him to try for a couple weeks.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



The nice thing about shelf as well is the vast majority of climbs are only as long as the new ET routes. So being in Gym shape is a-OK.

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


spwrozek posted:

You can pretty much always hike Quandary with a pair of micro spikes. It you really want to do one.

Yeah but...quandary east slopes. Yaaaaawn

Granted Iím jaded after many ascents myself.

Bud Manstrong
Dec 11, 2003

The Curse of the Flying Criosphinx


13ers are the way to go if you want to get up high by interesting routes without the crowds.

Thatís a great list of Shelf climbs.

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


Bud Manstrong posted:



Thatís a great list of Shelf climbs.

Would add Raven and 2150 AD.

Iíve never climbed over at Menses, mostly because my Shelf-focused friend cites it being a chosspile. Any goon input? Fwiw Shelf isnít one of my favorites.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



remote control carnivore posted:

Yeah but...quandary east slopes. Yaaaaawn

Granted I’m jaded after many ascents myself.

Oh yeah for sure. But if an out of Towner really wanted to do a 14er with snow still on it I would put it at the top of the list. East slopes are a fun ski though for a fun corn harvest.

The shelf list is only things I have done. I am sure there are more fun stuff. I haven't been in a while myself. It has some good routes but I am kinda over it.

Quandary
Jan 29, 2008


spwrozek posted:

You can pretty much always hike Quandary with a pair of micro spikes. It you really want to do one.

Please don't hike me.

magicalmako
Feb 13, 2005


TFCC injuries suck :(

house of the dad
Jul 4, 2005



Anyone have any experience with elbow pain? I've been climbing for about a month and a half now and since the first week I've been having pain in my elbow that starts slowly at the beginning of a session and then worsens as I continue to climb. Seems to be the tendon at the top of the elbow that connects to the bicep. I've been doing stretches and took four days off over the weekend as I was out of town, but it's immediately come back at about the same level as it was before. I do tend to climb 4 weekdays out of 5 so I may be overdoing it, but the pain hasn't been getting worse and it's better on some days more than others. Should I try a compression sleeve?

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

house of the dad posted:

Anyone have any experience with elbow pain? I've been climbing for about a month and a half now and since the first week I've been having pain in my elbow that starts slowly at the beginning of a session and then worsens as I continue to climb. Seems to be the tendon at the top of the elbow that connects to the bicep. I've been doing stretches and took four days off over the weekend as I was out of town, but it's immediately come back at about the same level as it was before. I do tend to climb 4 weekdays out of 5 so I may be overdoing it, but the pain hasn't been getting worse and it's better on some days more than others. Should I try a compression sleeve?

It sounds like either medial or lateral epicondylitis (golfer's elbow or tennis elbow), depending on which side of the elbow it's on. It is a really common overuse injury among climbers. The best long term avoidance thing you can do is crosstrain tricep exercies(pushups and dips). Once you already have it though, it tends to not go away without rest and rehab. I've had it several times over the years, to varying degrees of severity. The best luck I've had getting rid of it involved routinely doing a lot of pushups and also doing rehab exercises with a thing called a "therabar". There is also a strap device you can wear on your forearm that has a hard plastic puck on it, which basically compresses against the tendon before the attachment point and shifts some of the strain that would otherwise go to the attachment point to the compression point instead. That may help if you insist on climbing hard through the pain, but I am dubious if it actually provides any real benefit.

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

I also have golfer elbow from lifting and martial arts. Rice bucket stuff is good, but mostly rest

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


house of the dad posted:

Anyone have any experience with elbow pain? I've been climbing for about a month and a half now and since the first week I've been having pain in my elbow that starts slowly at the beginning of a session and then worsens as I continue to climb. Seems to be the tendon at the top of the elbow that connects to the bicep. I've been doing stretches and took four days off over the weekend as I was out of town, but it's immediately come back at about the same level as it was before. I do tend to climb 4 weekdays out of 5 so I may be overdoing it, but the pain hasn't been getting worse and it's better on some days more than others. Should I try a compression sleeve?

Just reinforcing someone else's good post about tennis/golfer's elbow, but I had this exact thing when I started climbing. Take some time off, let it recover, and do pushups and triceps dips as cross-teaching. Really do take some time off though or it'll just nag you.

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


So when I was getting pissy about people saying you shouldn't climb more than 3-4d a week, that was geared towards people who've built up the tendon strength and know their bodies well enough to tolerate a high frequency of training.

If it's your first year, climbing to exhaustion 4 out of 5 nights is going to be a lot on your elbows and fingers. Opposition exercises like banded finger extensions will help, but you might want to slow it down to 3 out of 5 or designate one of your days as an 'easy' day.

A cool thing about climbing is that you can actually do it a pretty high level up into your fifties so may as well ease into it rather than explode your elbows and suffer long term. I've seen kids get hyped on training and get such bad elbow issues that they need surgery in their early twenties.

house of the dad
Jul 4, 2005



Thanks for the advice. I'm probably overdoing it just because I enjoy climbing and I've been seeing noticeable improvement coming from a mostly sedentary lifestyle. I'll work in more opposition training and avoid some of the more arm-intensive bouldering I've been attempting.

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



I can't recommend Eric hurst's rock climber's exercise guide enough, for every single person in here. Its like $20, and is the best investment you can make.

It contains a wealth of exercises with frequency, load, and intensity for every conceivable scenario, including general fitness, climbing specific, nutrition, and detailed processes for injury recovery of all sorts.

Specifically for the elbow epicondylitis poster: There is a workout where you take sledge hammer or resistance band, hold it by the handle sitting down, and rotate your hand from palm up to palm down (same motion you'd make flipping a pancake).
Reverse curls will also help

E: Rock Climber's training manual comes in at second place IMO, but delves more into scientific research and theory. Still good, but doesn't get down to the dirty exercise details as quickly or effectively

Ubiquitus fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 8, 2019

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Agreed. I often forget that I have quite a few climbing books I've read over the years. Some gyms have a hammer thing like this with tape markings on the handle in their exercise room. The tape markings allow you to use a consistent difficulty. It's easier if your grip is closer to the weight and harder if further away.

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


On the other hand he wrote this and... gently caress that
https://trainingforclimbing.com/the-10-4-rule-a-guideline-for-projecting-and-steady-improvement/

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011




What's wrong with it?

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007



Ubiquitus posted:

I can't recommend Eric hurst's rock climber's exercise guide enough, for every single person in here. Its like $20, and is the best investment you can make.

It contains a wealth of exercises with frequency, load, and intensity for every conceivable scenario, including general fitness, climbing specific, nutrition, and detailed processes for injury recovery of all sorts.

Specifically for the elbow epicondylitis poster: There is a workout where you take sledge hammer or resistance band, hold it by the handle sitting down, and rotate your hand from palm up to palm down (same motion you'd make flipping a pancake).
Reverse curls will also help

E: Rock Climber's training manual comes in at second place IMO, but delves more into scientific research and theory. Still good, but doesn't get down to the dirty exercise details as quickly or effectively

nice, ordered

Hauki
May 11, 2010




Iíll have to check out that book too. Shelf road was awesome yesterday, couldnít ask for better weather.
Only hit some 9s and finally a 10a that felt more like a sustained boulder problem than a sport route, but had a blast in any case. My first time lead belaying and cleaning, I was gonna try my first lead as well, but we ran out of time. Hopefully next time!

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


Ubiquitus posted:

What's wrong with it?

I get what he's saying, but there's a large quantity of climbers who have projects that are going to take more than four days. He gives Megos as an example, but other than him or Ondra, I doubt there's any high level climber that hasn't regularly spent weeks or months on a project. One local in my home area just sent his first 14 after projecting it for years in his late 40s. You can make the argument that it's not 'optimal', but I think there's a lot of people out there who find having big projects inspiring and rewarding which is why we climb in the first place.

Once the redpoint process starts, there's so many beta refinements that can still take place to make things more efficient and you miss out on that growth if you arbitrarily stop trying after ten attempts. You can make the argument that you'll lose strength with other styles, but having a long term project doesn't prevent you from still training and addressing weaknesses.

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


Like yeah, you probably shouldn't spend an entire season trying to tick your first 12 or probably not even for your first 13 but sometimes climbing is loving hard and hard things take time and patience.

Business of Ferrets
Mar 2, 2008

Good to see that everything is back to normal.

Partial Octopus posted:

So my friend and I have a lot of experience top roping and lead climbing in the gym but we've never done outdoor climbing. We looked up some beginner outdoor climbs in our area and found some top rope spots.

Is it a terrible idea for us to go and top rope outdoors with only gym experience? I looked up instructions on how to tie into an anchor. It seems pretty simple. Mostly just posting here as a sanity check before I go and get us killed by missing something stupid.

I was planning on using this technique that I found assuming the anchor at the top is similar. https://www.climbing.com/skills/bolted-toprope-anchors/
I would of course practice tying the knot at home or at the gym. I have no experience repelling, so I would hike back down around to the beginning of the climb after setting up the rope.

Please tell me if I'm being dumb.

Late to this, but want to note that the edge of a cliff is a dangerous place, so be sure you (or the more experienced person you plan to have come along) is tethering if necessary to avoid going over the edge. Also, donít assume the anchors at the top will be similar to bolted chains. Guidebooks and internet sites often will indicate the nature of top anchors, which can vary from trees to boulders to rock cracks to hardware, depending on the popularity and local ethic of a place, and youíll need different materials for those. Watch for cyclical loading of the anchor material. Anchor building is not rocket science but if you mess it up thatís bad bad bad.

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



I dont disagree with what you said, but there are very specific times and places for it. If someone can maintain high levels of motivation while constantly failing, but are still somewhat close on something that's hard then that can be a viable option. I personally dont think most people can do that.

In your own example, it took the person years to send their thing. But you didn't mention that the ancillary training that probably happened in that time? Nor if he was only climbing that thing every day (probably not?)

His approach is just saying the same thing, and really there are so many climbs in this world that narrowly focusing on one climb is certainly taking away from your chance to climb all those other great things, while still getting stronger to send the one project. And really, unless it's a precision dyno or something, it's unlikely you'll get stronger to do the one or two moves shutting you down w/o training in other ways for it.

Tldr; I agree with Hurst. If we were talking about bouldering, I would agree with you

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Hauki posted:

I’ll have to check out that book too. Shelf road was awesome yesterday, couldn’t ask for better weather.
Only hit some 9s and finally a 10a that felt more like a sustained boulder problem than a sport route, but had a blast in any case. My first time lead belaying and cleaning, I was gonna try my first lead as well, but we ran out of time. Hopefully next time!

Sounds like shelf, short and powerful.

jiggerypokery
Feb 1, 2012

...But I could hardly wait six months with a red hot jape like that under me belt.

He's talking about on climbing trips. He literally names local projects as an exception

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Mezzanon
Sep 16, 2003



Pillbug

What does it mean when you can do 15 pull ups but only 2 dips?

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