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KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

I'm really enjoying the discussion even if I don't have much to contribute. Itís pretty cool because itís a similar conversation we have in the grappling thread every so often and the opinions are similar (just grapple more vs hit the gym) Iíll try to take all opinions into account since thereís usually a lot of truth on both sides. Right now Iím thinking that hangboarding once a week at home is a possibility I need to evaluate if climbing 3 times a week is difficult to achieve and if Iím really cautious.

Things to note is that I have 3 kids which means limited climbing time (I manage to climb 2-3 x a week) but I could add specific training/hang boarding time on top of that quite easily since there is a gym at work + i can build a hang board for home use if itís worth it. I think Iím pretty good at limiting intensity and following a certain protocol.

Verviticus posted:

how fit are you/how much do you weigh?

Well strength wise I deadlift ~ 3 plates, front squat 180 for 6 reps and bench 180 for 6 reps. Max on those is probably around 200/210. So nothing amazing, but I donít think numbers higher than that would help with climbing much.

More relevant to climbing I can do around 10 strict pull-ups (may be more, I never really tried, I just add weight when I hit 10 or do more sets) and I can do 5-6 with 35 pounds extra. I can also do pistol squats (donít know how many, I always do sets of 5 after my front squats so Iím pretty fried already)

I've been grappling (judo/bjj) for the past 15 years or so which feels pretty relevant to climbing somehow but is hard to put in numbers. I think it's mostly the core/stability/balance/flexibility that is useful.

I weigh 165 to 170 and I'm a bit over 5'8. I'm pretty lean, but still carry some fat. I could probably go back down to 160 without too much effort/losing strength. I'd guess my bodyfat is around 15 to 20% when looking at pictures of fat percentage.

KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 7, 2019

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Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?


Hot Diggity! posted:

You're going to build tendon strength by just climbing. Plus then technique and general fitness can improve.

You're going to build sport-specific strength and fitness just by playing whatever sport you choose. That's as true for football or gymnastics as it is for climbing. Yet you still see participants in those sports employing resistance training to target specific muscle groups because this type of training can deliver gains in a more controlled fashion, correct muscle imbalance, and help with injury prevention. The "just climb" attitude ignores basically the entire field of exercise science because people think climbing is different in some significant but impossible to describe way. Don't fall into that trap.

Hangboarding (and resistance training in general) is great. It shouldn't replace climbing, and you shouldn't do it every day. However, if you are psyched on climbing and have the extra time, it's a valuable addition to your routine that will undoubtedly help your climbing over time.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

Last week I went climbing (bouldering) for the second time in my adult life and had an excellent time. The next day I was doing some chin ups and noticed really bad pain on the inside of my left elbow. Later that day I went to play hockey and the same pain came back fiercely. I kept playing because I'm stupid but eventually left about 10-15 minutes early because it was ridiculous. That was on Wednesday, today is Sunday and I still have the pain, though it's just a dull ache that comes and goes now and not the shooting pain that it was before. I was originally planning to climb again today but decided not to. Just wondering if I need to wait until the pain completely subsides before I try climbing again, and if there's anything I can do to avoid this happening again (stretches, exercises, etc.)? I'm 33 and in decent shape but pretty much untrained right now as far as resistance work goes. I want to get into climbing because it seems like it would be a good complement to playing hockey/general athleticism and it's a lot more fun than lifting but I don't want to gently caress my body up and have to miss more hockey.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007



Baronash posted:

You're going to build sport-specific strength and fitness just by playing whatever sport you choose. That's as true for football or gymnastics as it is for climbing. Yet you still see participants in those sports employing resistance training to target specific muscle groups because this type of training can deliver gains in a more controlled fashion, correct muscle imbalance, and help with injury prevention. The "just climb" attitude ignores basically the entire field of exercise science because people think climbing is different in some significant but impossible to describe way. Don't fall into that trap.

Hangboarding (and resistance training in general) is great. It shouldn't replace climbing, and you shouldn't do it every day. However, if you are psyched on climbing and have the extra time, it's a valuable addition to your routine that will undoubtedly help your climbing over time.

Do you think that newbie gymnasts start their training by attempting iron crosses? No, because that would be loving stupid. Even if they have strong muscles, their joints and tendons won't be ready for the sheer amount of stress the exercise requires.

This applies to every sport: advanced training routines (i.e. those that are designed to address specific points of weakness, or bottlenecks that prevent progression, e.g. hangboarding) should not be followed by beginners. The reasons are obvious, and one doesn't need a degree in exercise science to understand why (and every exercise scientist worth their salt would agree anyway).

When you recommend hangboarding to a newbie, you're giving them dangerous advice, and it is frankly irresponsible. As others in this thread have said, building grip strength takes time and patience. It's not a matter of "train your fingers as much as you can". That's just a recipe for injury.

Slow News Day fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Apr 7, 2019

DrAlexanderTobacco
Jun 11, 2012

Help me find my true dharma


e: nvm

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?


enraged_camel posted:

Do you think that newbie gymnasts start their training by attempting iron crosses? No, because that would be loving stupid. Even if they have strong muscles, their joints and tendons won't be ready for the sheer amount of stress the exercise requires.

This applies to every sport: advanced training routines (i.e. those that are designed to address specific points of weakness, or bottlenecks that prevent progression, e.g. hangboarding) should not be followed by beginners. The reasons are obvious, and one doesn't need a degree in exercise science to understand why (and every exercise scientist worth their salt would agree anyway).

When you recommend hangboarding to a newbie, you're giving them dangerous advice, and it is frankly irresponsible. As others in this thread have said, building grip strength takes time and patience. It's not a matter of "train your fingers as much as you can". That's just a recipe for injury.

A hangboard is a tool that allows you to train grip strength in isolation. That's it. It's no more an advanced training routine than a sit-up. It also has the benefit of the results being measurable and controllable by either adding or removing weight using a pulley and gym plates. No, you shouldn't be doing body weight hangs your first time hangboarding anymore than you should be trying to squat 300lbs your first time at the gym. User error, and easily avoidable user error at that, is what injures people on a hangboard, not the tool itself.

I also never said to train grip strength as much as you can, and if you had actually read my posts you would have seen I said the exact opposite. Building grip strength does take time and patience, which is why you should do a little over a long period of time rather than trying to rush the training once you plateau.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007



Baronash posted:

A hangboard is a tool that allows you to train grip strength in isolation. That's it. It's no more an advanced training routine than a sit-up. It also has the benefit of the results being measurable and controllable by either adding or removing weight using a pulley and gym plates. No, you shouldn't be doing body weight hangs your first time hangboarding anymore than you should be trying to squat 300lbs your first time at the gym. User error, and easily avoidable user error at that, is what injures people on a hangboard, not the tool itself.

I also never said to train grip strength as much as you can, and if you had actually read my posts you would have seen I said the exact opposite. Building grip strength does take time and patience, which is why you should do a little over a long period of time rather than trying to rush the training once you plateau.

Hmm yes, it should be totally reasonable to expect newbies to figure out how to adjust their weight on the hangboard using a weight and pulley system, and to be able to determine when they are doing it wrong.

:bravo:

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?


enraged_camel posted:

Hmm yes, it should be totally reasonable to expect newbies to figure out how to adjust their weight on the hangboard using a weight and pulley system, and to be able to determine when they are doing it wrong.

:bravo:

Yes, it actually is quite reasonable to expect an adult to read, watch videos, or seek out in-person assistance. Iím glad we agree.

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?


Like, you donít magically become blessed with the knowledge of safe hangboard usage after you have been climbing for X years. You still have to figure this poo poo out, oftentimes by tracking down resources on your own.

Hot Diggity!
Apr 3, 2010

SKELITON_BRINGING_U_ON.GIF


He said he had been climbing for a month and a half hangboarding ain't worth it when you're that new!

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007



Baronash posted:

A hangboard is a tool that allows you to train grip strength in isolation. That's it. It's no more an advanced training routine than a sit-up.

Baronash posted:

Like, you donít magically become blessed with the knowledge of safe hangboard usage after you have been climbing for X years. You still have to figure this poo poo out, oftentimes by tracking down resources on your own.

:newlol:

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?



Are you denying that there is a proper form to any exercise you do with varying degrees of injury potential when you do it incorrectly?

At this point, youíre pretty much arguing against exercise as a concept.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




KingColliwog posted:

More relevant to climbing I can do around 10 strict pull-ups (may be more, I never really tried, I just add weight when I hit 10 or do more sets) and I can do 5-6 with 35 pounds extra. I can also do pistol squats (donít know how many, I always do sets of 5 after my front squats so Iím pretty fried already)

I've been grappling (judo/bjj) for the past 15 years or so which feels pretty relevant to climbing somehow but is hard to put in numbers. I think it's mostly the core/stability/balance/flexibility that is useful.

I weigh 165 to 170 and I'm a bit over 5'8. I'm pretty lean, but still carry some fat. I could probably go back down to 160 without too much effort/losing strength. I'd guess my bodyfat is around 15 to 20% when looking at pictures of fat percentage.

this isnt formal or professional, but at least from my experience of climbing with a lot of people between brand new to a couple years into their training, your fingers are gonna catch up pretty quick. when i started i was 210 and stayed that way for 2-2.5 years and it took me like a year and a half for my fingers to finally catch up with everything else. i could campus stuff that decent climbers struggled to do and then id fall off of trivially easy crimp problems. at least from my observation, weight in relatively fit people (so disregarding people who are clearly overweight) has basically no correlation with how quickly someone progresses as a climber, but it seems to have a very strong correlation with the type of problems people gravitate towards. i cant give you advice on hangboarding/how to do it and i want to stay out of the fight happening in this thread, but ultimately id guess crimps won't be a major weakness for very long regardless of whether or not you do hangboarding

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


Broke: hangboard
Woke: crack machine

LostCosmonaut
Feb 15, 2014



Hey guys, just got into climbing at the local gym. Originally wanted to do it so I'd feel more confident / prepared for 4th class terrain hiking in the Adirondacks, but I've fallen in love with bouldering? Anybody got recommendations for where to buy shoes in the Schenectady/Albany area? I was thinking EMS, but was wondering if there was anywhere else (or if I should just get a pair from my gym for now).

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



I wish you would all shut up.

Have some actual climbing photos you nerds.



galvetron
Jul 1, 2007



spwrozek posted:

I wish you would all shut up.

Have some actual climbing photos you nerds.





That's really cool looking terrain, where is it?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



galvetron posted:

That's really cool looking terrain, where is it?

Red River gorge. My girl on some 5.7. me climbing starry night.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/112289818

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


Nerds.


crazycello fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Apr 8, 2019

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



enraged_camel posted:

Do you think that newbie gymnasts start their training by attempting iron crosses? No, because that would be loving stupid. Even if they have strong muscles, their joints and tendons won't be ready for the sheer amount of stress the exercise requires.

This applies to every sport: advanced training routines (i.e. those that are designed to address specific points of weakness, or bottlenecks that prevent progression, e.g. hangboarding) should not be followed by beginners. The reasons are obvious, and one doesn't need a degree in exercise science to understand why (and every exercise scientist worth their salt would agree anyway).

When you recommend hangboarding to a newbie, you're giving them dangerous advice, and it is frankly irresponsible. As others in this thread have said, building grip strength takes time and patience. It's not a matter of "train your fingers as much as you can". That's just a recipe for injury.

Trollolol? 0 reading comprehension.

Seriously this is some head in the sand poo poo. I've seen some bad hot takes, this is up there.

Slow News Day
Jul 4, 2007



Ubiquitus posted:

Trollolol? 0 reading comprehension.

Seriously this is some head in the sand poo poo. I've seen some bad hot takes, this is up there.

Whatever you say. :jerkbag:

DrAlexanderTobacco
Jun 11, 2012

Help me find my true dharma


If KingColliwog can deadlift 3 plates then his hand tendons are certainly far more developed than the average former-sedentary-and-new-to-climbing goon.

In other news I finally bought a pair of shoes after ~8 months using rentals! La Sportiva Katanas. I really like them. They feel fairly aggressive, compared to the pairs I'd use before, but they're extremely snug and not having to worry about the sole/rand being hosed up makes a huge difference. It's really gotten me back into climbing again, 4x a week compared to dropping down to once a fortnight.

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009


DrAlexanderTobacco posted:

If KingColliwog can deadlift 3 plates then his hand tendons are certainly far more developed than the average former-sedentary-and-new-to-climbing goon.

In other news I finally bought a pair of shoes after ~8 months using rentals! La Sportiva Katanas. I really like them. They feel fairly aggressive, compared to the pairs I'd use before, but they're extremely snug and not having to worry about the sole/rand being hosed up makes a huge difference. It's really gotten me back into climbing again, 4x a week compared to dropping down to once a fortnight.

Though I'm more in the 'hangboard is a tool' camp, it's not the same. My worst pulley injury was as a novice climber when I still thought powerlifting was cool and could pull 400. Particularly with crimping, you're loading the tendons in a completely different way.

DrAlexanderTobacco
Jun 11, 2012

Help me find my true dharma


crazycello posted:

Though I'm more in the 'hangboard is a tool' camp, it's not the same. My worst pulley injury was as a novice climber when I still thought powerlifting was cool and could pull 400. Particularly with crimping, you're loading the tendons in a completely different way.

Fair play!

In the period between my last post and this one, my copy of Self Coached Climber arrived. It's great so far and has given me a few lightbulb moments already.

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



enraged_camel posted:

Whatever you say. :jerkbag:

Nm, not worth it.

Ubiquitus fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Apr 8, 2019

Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008






Both of you shut the gently caress up. Nobody cares about your bickering.

Niyqor
Dec 1, 2003

Paid for by the meat council of America

spwrozek posted:

Red River gorge. My girl on some 5.7. me climbing starry night.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/112289818

Nice. I'm happy I was able to recognize the area. I really need to get back down there. I've been slacking on trips.

Also, that shot of starry night does not do it justice.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



DrAlexanderTobacco posted:

In other news I finally bought a pair of shoes after ~8 months using rentals

What made you decide to wait that long? I'm one of these "sedentary but about to start climbing" goons (first time looking at this thread :)) and I was already thinking I might just buy a pair. I was introduced to the sport ~5 years ago while visiting a friend out of state and had a lot of fun. New gym in my area opens this month. I was planning on renting for a month or two, but if I stick with it beyond that then I may as well just grab them? I think I'm mostly going to do bouldering though, so I can save money by skipping a harness.

e; On the off chance, are there any goons in this thread in the 716 area?

Sab669 fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Apr 8, 2019

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Niyqor posted:

Nice. I'm happy I was able to recognize the area. I really need to get back down there. I've been slacking on trips.

Also, that shot of starry night does not do it justice.

Yeah. It is a really hard one to shoot without having a line to jug.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


I got a new pair of instinct Vs a couple of weeks ago and they are being a huge bitch to break in, my last pair of Scarpas were 41s and ended up being pretty baggy so I thought I could go down to a 40.5, especially after I managed to actually get on a (super uncomfortable) pair of 40s. But they're still so tight that they're making my feet numb after about 15 minutes and they're scraping the gently caress out of the tops of my toes. Anyone else have experience with these, especially the top of the toe box since it has that rubber cap there but I'd really like it to stretch out a bit.

DrAlexanderTobacco
Jun 11, 2012

Help me find my true dharma


Sab669 posted:

What made you decide to wait that long? I'm one of these "sedentary but about to start climbing" goons (first time looking at this thread :)) and I was already thinking I might just buy a pair. I was introduced to the sport ~5 years ago while visiting a friend out of state and had a lot of fun. New gym in my area opens this month. I was planning on renting for a month or two, but if I stick with it beyond that then I may as well just grab them? I think I'm mostly going to do bouldering though, so I can save money by skipping a harness.

e; On the off chance, are there any goons in this thread in the 716 area?

A combination of reasons. The first is that the climbing shop in my local centre shut down, and that was the only really good place in my area where I could both try on shoes and get some decent advice from climbers working in the shop to ensure I got a good shoe, fit etc. About 3 months into climbing, I headed into a larger city to check out their other branch of the chain, which had also shut down :(

The second was laziness. I should really post it in the Bad With Money thread in BFC because ultimately I've been paying £4, per session, for shoes :negative: a cautionary tale of how not to be an idiot.

DrAlexanderTobacco fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Apr 8, 2019

whodatwhere
Aug 24, 2013



LostCosmonaut posted:

Hey guys, just got into climbing at the local gym. Originally wanted to do it so I'd feel more confident / prepared for 4th class terrain hiking in the Adirondacks, but I've fallen in love with bouldering? Anybody got recommendations for where to buy shoes in the Schenectady/Albany area? I was thinking EMS, but was wondering if there was anywhere else (or if I should just get a pair from my gym for now).

I used to live in that same area. I bought my shoes at EMS in Lapham I think it was. Combination of there and the gym is probably the best selection you'll find (not online). You climbing at the edge?

LostCosmonaut
Feb 15, 2014



whodatwhere posted:

I used to live in that same area. I bought my shoes at EMS in Lapham I think it was. Combination of there and the gym is probably the best selection you'll find (not online). You climbing at the edge?

Yeah, that's where I've been going. Really like the place.

Guess I'll be heading to EMS this weekend. Still think it's weird as hell there's no REI in upstate New York.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



I went climbing for the first time since December 18th. I stuck to the "E" problems which are like V0-V2. I did then all twice and climbed them up and down. Hands don't feel too bad, toes are on fire though... Oh climbing shoes. Forearms are ok (didn't really stress then though) and my collar bone feels pretty good. I did take care to not fall and do moves that I thought might hurt. I am sure my endurance is poo poo.

I even took two videos for you all. Hopefully outside soon!

https://youtu.be/U4k9bgm1tto

https://youtu.be/hdOYKYdkOu8

remote control carnivore
May 6, 2009


spwrozek posted:

I went climbing for the first time since December 18th. I stuck to the "E" problems which are like V0-V2. I did then all twice and climbed them up and down. Hands don't feel too bad, toes are on fire though... Oh climbing shoes. Forearms are ok (didn't really stress then though) and my collar bone feels pretty good. I did take care to not fall and do moves that I thought might hurt. I am sure my endurance is poo poo.

I even took two videos for you all. Hopefully outside soon!

https://youtu.be/U4k9bgm1tto

https://youtu.be/hdOYKYdkOu8

Welcome back. :)

Syncopated
Oct 21, 2010


RabidWeasel posted:

I got a new pair of instinct Vs a couple of weeks ago and they are being a huge bitch to break in, my last pair of Scarpas were 41s and ended up being pretty baggy so I thought I could go down to a 40.5, especially after I managed to actually get on a (super uncomfortable) pair of 40s. But they're still so tight that they're making my feet numb after about 15 minutes and they're scraping the gently caress out of the tops of my toes. Anyone else have experience with these, especially the top of the toe box since it has that rubber cap there but I'd really like it to stretch out a bit.

Was your last pair the same model? Because the fit changes between models, but I guess you've noticed by now. I had the same experience as you when I bought my current pair of Katanas, with the toe pain and having to take them off after every boulder problem, to say nothing of routes.

Are you climbing outside with them? I have a hard time with foot jams because the toes are bent so much and it hurts like a bitch, but otherwise the shoes are great. My Katanas kept breaking in for like a couple years so I'd keep on with the ones you have if possible. I bought a pair of beginner shoes for longer routes but they fell apart pretty fast and now I can use my katanas for a whole day without too much problem and I feel like I get more precision with the tighter shoes.

Also I climbed two (count it, 2!) 5.9's on gear on Saturday. Never done that on the same day, so feeling like a long winter of indoor bouldering has paid off! Eyeing some 5.10's on the same crag, feels good man.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


My previous pair was actually a pair of 39 Katanas but I wanted to try something which isn't La Sportiva since I wore through the toes of my last pair in like 8 months and also wanted something more aggressive. I really, really like being able to 'grab' holds with the hooked toe on the Instincts which is something I've never been able to do with my previous shoes.

I actually climbed in them for a longer session today and honestly now I'm starting to think maybe I should have gone for the 40s after all because they're stretching out more than I was expecting even though the toe box is still pretty uncomfortable (and keeping up my tradition of christening my new shoes with some nice bleedy toe scabs)

Mokelumne Trekka
Nov 22, 2015

Soon.


I finally got to a point where I understand the rappel system and don't feel as scared, though I must admit I havent gone down anything too gnarly.

Just curious - is everyone using a runner extension in their rappel setup? My understanding is that the "old school" way does not involve a runner going through your harness tie-ins, but using one gives you more distance from the friction device and better control.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Simul on a gri. (I don't recommend this though)

If I rap on an ATC I don't extend personally. A lot of people do though.

E: I tend to walk off if I can. Single pitch I always lower.

spwrozek fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 10, 2019

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Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?


Mokelumne Trekka posted:

I finally got to a point where I understand the rappel system and don't feel as scared, though I must admit I havent gone down anything too gnarly.

Just curious - is everyone using a runner extension in their rappel setup? My understanding is that the "old school" way does not involve a runner going through your harness tie-ins, but using one gives you more distance from the friction device and better control.

I do appreciate the spacing it offers and how it allows you to be in a much more comfortable position. Honestly though, I just don't rappel all that much. About the only situation I can think of is a multipitch climb without the option to walk back down to the base. On pretty much everything else I'll lower or walk down.

e: f,b

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