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armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

On alpine routes where pitches are less well defined, it's generally good to just have a sense of your rope length and to build an anchor when you find a viable location based on the gear you have left. On heavily trafficked multi-pitch routes you can generally rely on the route descriptions in books to indicate good belay spots. Just don't wander off route!

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Electoral Surgery
Mar 19, 2010


nacon posted:

I think if one climbs long enough, you live long enough to see most of your fundamental assumptions about the behavior of rocks and anchors challenged in fundamental ways. I broke a seemingly-okay flake with a cam like this when building an anchor, sending a serving-tray sized hunk of rock down at my belayer/follower. I decided on climbing a bit farther to a different anchor stance...

A few weeks ago I was bouldering with a friend who was working on a tall layback-the-slopey-arete problem. He pulled a chunk out of the solid, fracture less arete that was half the size of a bread loaf. With a heel hook.

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m
Apr 16, 2017

Í̝̰ ͓̯̖̫̹̯̤A҉m̺̩͝ ͇̬A̡̮̞̠͚͉̱̫ K̶e͓ǵ.̻̱̪͖̹̟̕


I'm back at the bouldering gym.

I got fat and my hands are weak and my calluses are gone :(

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



I thought I would have lost a lot more strength than I did when my gym re-opened, and what I did lose came back pretty quickly. It's mostly just my endurance that suffered. Also my footwork degraded significantly, and masks blocking downward peripheral vision doesn't help.


Shoe talk: I bought some Evolv Nighthawks last year and they were OK for a first shoe, but being leather they expanded too much and needed replacing. Beginning of this year I went with a step up to Evolv Kronos which are synthetic and slightly more aggressively shaped. I thought they should be fine, they felt good, but honestly I can't do slab at all and there is just a little bit too much wiggle room for my toes. Like I'm a decent V4-5 / working on 6's at my gym but when it comes to slab I literally can't even do a V4, lucky if I can start them half the time. As soon as I try to stand up I can just feel my toe roll right off the hold.

The lady at the gym last night told me Evolv tends to run "pretty close to actual shoe size" which sounds right, depending on the shoe I'm anywhere from a 9 - 9.5 typically and these Kronos are 9's. I tried 8.5's briefly and it really hurt my toes and even shot all the way up the arches of my feet.

I started looking at La Sportivas online last night, it looks like they're only sold in EU sizes and even have half sizes so I think I need to try on something between a US 8.5 and 9, but gently caress their stuff is so expensive. They do have a few cheaper options that aren't nearly as aggressively down turned, but I'm not sure what I want to do :shrug: My enthusiasm for climbing hasn't diminished in the year I've been doing it so I guess I should just bite the bullet and get some nice ones? Are there any other brands that also offer EU half sizes?

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

I'm a 9.5 street size, and I wear the Miura VS in a size 41.5. They're _very_ snug when brand new, although the top of the shoe box stretches a bit after climbing in them some. Still, I wouldn't want to keep them on my feet for more than like 2 pitches or a few boulder problems. Typically when bouldering I take them off and put them back on again between problems. They're not the best for slab, but I can definitely still climb slab in them. I've tried a whole lot of shoes over the past 10 years and these are my favorites for everything except multi-pitch stuff, in which case I wear TC Pros.

Edit: If you're in the US, Zappos should have free two way shipping. In the past I've ordered the same exact shoe in a few different sizes from them, kept the one that fit, and returned the rest. I've done that a few times and never had a problem. The way shipping is right now, maybe wait until right after your credit card closes though so you can be sure that you have a full month to get them back and be refunded.

Also, the shoes are expensive, but you can get them resoled several times for around $50 a resole if you don't let them wear too far. That brings the price back within reason over time, and keeps you in shoes that are already broken in well.

armorer fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Aug 26, 2020

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Yea I suspect 41.5's are gonna be as close to the perfect size as it gets, for me. I am US and would normally buy off Moosejaw but I don't want to deal with shipping/returning. Probably just going to suck it up and drive the 70-80 minutes to my nearest REI :/

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Sab669 posted:

Yea I suspect 41.5's are gonna be as close to the perfect size as it gets, for me. I am US and would normally buy off Moosejaw but I don't want to deal with shipping/returning. Probably just going to suck it up and drive the 70-80 minutes to my nearest REI :/


Not sure how apparent it is in the photo, but the top of the toe box stretches over time. These are sized down a full street size (41.5 is like an ~8.5, and I am a solid 9.5 in a regular shoe). My toes are slightly curled at the front of the shoe, so the bend in my toe pushes against the top of the toe box, and stretches it out. In the faded pair with the blown out toe, you can see a wrinkle across the toe box where it has stretched out. The rubber coated portion of a climbing shoe will never stretch.

So if you're normally a 9/9.5 then I would suggest a 41 or 41.5, but there will be absolutely no space in the toe box, even after it stretches. Your toes will be right up against the front of the shoe. That makes for poor comfort, but you'll never feel your toe rolling off a small hold.


Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



I'm OK with needing to take them off between problems, if it means I can actually send things :v: Like seriously I've plateaud on slab so drat hard compared the other sections of the gym

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Sab669 posted:

I'm OK with needing to take them off between problems, if it means I can actually send things :v: Like seriously I've plateaud on slab so drat hard compared the other sections of the gym

For slab I think the ideal shoe is something very tight fitting, with little to no downturn but with a rigid toe platform. These meet two of the three criteria, but the aggressive downturn makes them more painful on slab than a flat front would be. On the whole though, given everything that I climb, I like them the most. They do fine on slab and really the most important things there are that your shoes are tight and that they have a rigid toe platform so they don't deflect when you put all your weight on small features.

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



If you're in this for the long haul, looking at climbing shoes as investments is a good perspective.

Personally I think having a 'stable' of shoes is a good approach - each has a niche thats filled, but some can fulfill multiple roles. That's easier to build up over a longer period than you've been climbing, but could be a long term approach.

As far as specific climbing shoes go, it usually seems like there's a lot of variance based on the shape of a person's foot. If you have prime, I've found that's a good way to size with a brand you haven't used before, since shipping is free.

Personally I like scarpa shoes the most for outdoor bouldering, but they aren't the best slab climbing or indoor shoes since they usually don't have a stiff midsole and are thin compared to something like a miura, which is a good all-around shoe.

Rei.com's climbing section has a pretty good breakdown of which climbing shoe type to buy for which scenarios.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Sab669 posted:

I thought I would have lost a lot more strength than I did when my gym re-opened, and what I did lose came back pretty quickly. It's mostly just my endurance that suffered. Also my footwork degraded significantly, and masks blocking downward peripheral vision doesn't help.


Shoe talk: I bought some Evolv Nighthawks last year and they were OK for a first shoe, but being leather they expanded too much and needed replacing. Beginning of this year I went with a step up to Evolv Kronos which are synthetic and slightly more aggressively shaped. I thought they should be fine, they felt good, but honestly I can't do slab at all and there is just a little bit too much wiggle room for my toes. Like I'm a decent V4-5 / working on 6's at my gym but when it comes to slab I literally can't even do a V4, lucky if I can start them half the time. As soon as I try to stand up I can just feel my toe roll right off the hold.

The lady at the gym last night told me Evolv tends to run "pretty close to actual shoe size" which sounds right, depending on the shoe I'm anywhere from a 9 - 9.5 typically and these Kronos are 9's. I tried 8.5's briefly and it really hurt my toes and even shot all the way up the arches of my feet.

I started looking at La Sportivas online last night, it looks like they're only sold in EU sizes and even have half sizes so I think I need to try on something between a US 8.5 and 9, but gently caress their stuff is so expensive. They do have a few cheaper options that aren't nearly as aggressively down turned, but I'm not sure what I want to do :shrug: My enthusiasm for climbing hasn't diminished in the year I've been doing it so I guess I should just bite the bullet and get some nice ones? Are there any other brands that also offer EU half sizes?

La Sportiva makes great shoes. Shoes are WAY too subjective to how your feet feel in them though. Either go somewhere to try them on or buy a bunch. I basically where a size 8 shoe (that is my FiveTen Freeride Pro shoe size), here are my four main climbing shoes and the sizes printed on the shoe:

Tenaya Tanta: EUR 40, US 7.5 (gym shoe)
Scarpa Vapor V: EUR 41, US 8 (less aggressive outside sport/boulder shoe: up to 10+)
La Sportiva Mura VS: EUR 41, US 8.5 (tight fit climb hard sport: up to 12-. used for overhung to slab)
La Sportiva TC Pro: EUR 41, US 8.5 (flat fit trad, all day machine)

As you can see it is all over the place. The LS shoes are even crazier. They are different shapes but the same size and fit COMPLETELY different.

So...go try on some shoes basically.

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

I second the "Just try a million shoes". When I bought the first pair of my current model (Scarpa Instinct VS) I tried 7-8 different models in 2-3 size each. Most were terrible for my foot, but are widely seen as amazing shoes. The Scarpa instinct just happen to fit my foot perfectly. They are comfortable but have absolutely no play anywhere. I'm on my 3rd or 4th pair right now and I think I will always have a pair.

I'm starting to think I also want a stiff shoe for outdoor/sport climbing and I plan on trying a ton of shoes before I do so because having a shoe that fit your individual foot is way more important than the actual model in my opinion.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




ive given up on finding even slightly aggressive shoes for bouldering. i bought a pair of muiras a size bigger than my normal shoes (which are really comfy) and even after a month they were basically unwearable. i think my feet are just either messed up or sensitive or something, but at this point if the shoes hurt it just makes me not want to climb - id rather be limited very very slightly by my shoes in like 5% of problems than associate foot pain with a thing that i enjoy doing

Anza Borrego
Feb 11, 2005

Ovis canadensis nelsoni

I have duck feet (EE/EEE) and have to upsize from my regular shoe size, even with a wide shoe. I got some aggressive Instinct VS and they are great for the gym but the sucked really really bad when I went outdoors. They would have also been real bad for multi pitch, so I was glad to have my first pair, some comfortable Black Diamonds, to swap out.

Electoral Surgery
Mar 19, 2010


Anza Borrego posted:

I got some aggressive Instinct VS and they are great for the gym but the sucked really really bad when I went outdoors.

Sucked really bad like they were painful, or you could't keep your feet on?

Anza Borrego
Feb 11, 2005

Ovis canadensis nelsoni

Electoral Surgery posted:

Sucked really bad like they were painful, or you could't keep your feet on?

Painful. What makes sense in the gym - taking the shoes off between routes - was a PITA at the crag. We were also climbing moderates, and the less aggressive shoes were fine. I couldnt imagine wearing them on a multi pitch route.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Anza Borrego posted:

Painful. What makes sense in the gym - taking the shoes off between routes - was a PITA at the crag. We were also climbing moderates, and the less aggressive shoes were fine. I couldnt imagine wearing them on a multi pitch route.

You don't take your shoes off between routes outside?

nacon
May 7, 2005



Anza Borrego posted:

Painful. What makes sense in the gym - taking the shoes off between routes - was a PITA at the crag. We were also climbing moderates, and the less aggressive shoes were fine. I couldnt imagine wearing them on a multi pitch route.

My advice is to master the multi-pitch shoe on/off transition:

If you're the leader, and you've set up the anchor, and are in direct/off belay, take off your shoes before pulling the rope up.
If you're the follower and your partner is off belay and pulling rope, put your shoes on.

(Always attach the shoes to yourself with a spare draw/carabiner)

Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005



Anza Borrego posted:

Painful. What makes sense in the gym - taking the shoes off between routes - was a PITA at the crag. We were also climbing moderates, and the less aggressive shoes were fine. I couldn’t imagine wearing them on a multi pitch route.

Don't walk around in your shoes! They'll get, dirty, worn and your feet won't like you. Plus it marks you as a gumby!

Endjinneer
Aug 17, 2005


Fallen Rib

Sigmund Fraud posted:

Don't walk around in your shoes! They'll get, dirty, worn and your feet won't like you. Plus it marks you as a gumby!

Dirty boots trash routes! You can hear when someone hasn't cleaned their boots and they step onto the footholds. A good ritual is to give each boot a scrape on the trouser covering your opposite calf as you start. Makes you look a bit like a grasshopper though.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




how aggressively do you guys file your calluses on your hands?

KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

Verviticus posted:

how aggressively do you guys file your calluses on your hands?

I bring a file to the gym and when it feels like my calluses might end up tearing apart or something I'll file them down until they don't. I used to need to do it often (at least one session a week), but now I touch them once every few month and somehow they don't tear anymore. I think I just have slight calluses all over my hands now so there's less elasticity and therefore nothing to "grab" on the holds or something.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




yeah ive never had a problem with tearing them off, but my skin generally hurts quite a bit for the first 10-20 mins of climbing and i was trying to reduce that. i got what is essentially a motor attached to a roll of sandpaper and spent like two hours watching star trek and blasting them and now theyre super smooth and honestly i feel like its been a significant improvement

ive never filed them at the gym though; usually the day after

Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005



Verviticus posted:

how aggressively do you guys file your calluses on your hands?
I only had calluses in the first yr of climbing. Once you climb on smaller holds you won't get them any more. I use a sandpaper-esque nail file for the sides of my nail bands and a nail clipper to trim flappers/skin flaps.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



I don't entirely agree with the grade on this one compared to others in my gym, but it always feels good to break into the next level so I'll take it :toot: They're these weird dual-texture door knob kinda holds so the actual gripy parts is pretty "shallow" despite how big/good they look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPi3eyyTFk

Still waiting on US-CAN border to reopen before I can do any outdoor climbing again :( but I'm thankful to have the gym at least

Sab669 fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Sep 16, 2020

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Sab669 posted:

I don't entirely agree with the grade on this one compared to others in my gym, but it always feels good to break into the next level so I'll take it :toot: They're these weird dual-texture door knob kinda holds so the actual gripy parts is pretty "shallow" despite how big/good they look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPi3eyyTFk

Still waiting on US-CAN border to reopen before I can do any outdoor climbing again :( but I'm thankful to have the gym at least

I doubt it will open until mid 2021 at the earliest.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Yea I don't really expect it any time this year. Maybe next Spring :sigh:

Ubiquitus
Nov 20, 2011



Sab669 posted:

Yea I don't really expect it any time this year. Maybe next Spring :sigh:

I don't know how Canada views in province travel, but Squamish is fantastic and probably a short plane ride away?

Electoral Surgery
Mar 19, 2010


Ubiquitus posted:

I don't know how Canada views in province travel, but Squamish is fantastic and probably a short plane ride away?

for the next month or so

SplitDestiny
Sep 25, 2004


nacon posted:

As I've been jumping into more committing trad/alpine climbs, my perception of anchors and anchoring (and where our priorities should be) has been radically changed. This article along with my experiences has really changed my view of anchors:

https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2017/7/31/anchors

There's a lot we're taught about equalization/extension/distribution of load on anchoring systems that may not always be explicitly true, as it turns out.

This is a good article and I've heard many guides say similar things such as "You don't have to worry about shock loading and extension if your placements don't fail." Your anchor is only as strong as the placements you make.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Ubiquitus posted:

I don't know how Canada views in province travel, but Squamish is fantastic and probably a short plane ride away?

I'm in the US, and also on the opposite side of the continent :) But my local crag is a stone's throw away across the border into Canada.


Going to sign up for my gym's Lead class in the next week or so. I still don't much enjoy top rope, it just feels like a really long V2-V3. It's tiring but I never feel like I have to think about what I'm doing, more just going through the motions. But I suspect needing to clip in will make things a little more "distinct" from bouldering. And also just not constantly having a rope in my face will be a breath of fresh air. But really I'm just interesting in eventually getting to outdoor sport climbing.

I guess this probably varies based on where you are, but generally speaking are most multi-pitch routes trad climbing only? Or are there any routes with clips bolted in?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



There are tons and tons of multipitch sport routes.

asur
Dec 28, 2012


spwrozek posted:

There are tons and tons of multipitch sport routes.

This is highly dependent on where you climb and who the first ascenders were in the specific area. I would say CA in general seems to have near zero, basically only unprotectable climbs, for instance while it seems like Squamish has a bunch.

It's also very common to have significant run out on easy sections such that a lot of books will label them mixed or note that you can bring gear.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



What do you mean by "unprotectable"?


Seems like the Adirondacks or the 'gunks will be my only reasonable options for the foreseeable future :)

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Basically any climbs that could be protected using trad gear, were. So the only stuff that got bolted were rock faces that were "unprotectable" in that they didn't have features that would accept nuts/cams/etc.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



asur posted:

This is highly dependent on where you climb and who the first ascenders were in the specific area. I would say CA in general seems to have near zero, basically only unprotectable climbs, for instance while it seems like Squamish has a bunch.

It's also very common to have significant run out on easy sections such that a lot of books will label them mixed or note that you can bring gear.

Sure but he lives in Buffalo NY. So he is traveling for any climbing realistically. a MP search in CO of 5.7-5.11d with at least 2 stars gets you 388 routes. The search is a little funky and some trad stuff is showing up in there but you are looking at over 200 in Colorado alone.

Gear obviously opens a lot of windows though.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Sab669 posted:

I'm in the US, and also on the opposite side of the continent :) But my local crag is a stone's throw away across the border into Canada.


Going to sign up for my gym's Lead class in the next week or so. I still don't much enjoy top rope, it just feels like a really long V2-V3. It's tiring but I never feel like I have to think about what I'm doing, more just going through the motions. But I suspect needing to clip in will make things a little more "distinct" from bouldering. And also just not constantly having a rope in my face will be a breath of fresh air. But really I'm just interesting in eventually getting to outdoor sport climbing.

I guess this probably varies based on where you are, but generally speaking are most multi-pitch routes trad climbing only? Or are there any routes with clips bolted in?

How far is Rumney, NH from you? That has the highest concentration of bolted routes in the NE that I'm aware of.

Edit: 7 hours from Buffalo, well then... I wasn't expecting it, but the New River Gorge in Fayetteville, WV is closer, and also has a ton of bolted routes. Both Rumney and the New are fantastic places to sport climb. You can hapilly spend years and years climbing in either one. There's likely some dinky bolted crag near you though, if you search mountain project.

armorer fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 22, 2020

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Yea it's a surprisingly far drive from Buffalo --> Anywhere in New England. NY is a lot wider than people think :)

Suicide Watch
Sep 8, 2009


goddammit I decked today. Was rapping down with an assisted belay device after setting up a TR and reascended the line momentarily to free my tangled rope (it was really windy and didn't fall straight down). When I was ready to descend again, I was gripping the top side instead of the brake side which didn't allow the cam to engage causing me to hit the ground albeit somewhat slowed by my grip. Got some bad rope burn and a nasty rear end bruise.

Why did I grip it that way? Well, I was probably too accustomed to ascending the rope that way when I'd solo with both the device and a microtrax. I'm an idiot, and I bet I'll stop and think momentarily before setting something similar up again.

Don't be an idiot, and stay safe out there!

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KingColliwog
May 15, 2003

Let's go droogs

Suicide Watch posted:

goddammit I decked today. Was rapping down with an assisted belay device after setting up a TR and reascended the line momentarily to free my tangled rope (it was really windy and didn't fall straight down). When I was ready to descend again, I was gripping the top side instead of the brake side which didn't allow the cam to engage causing me to hit the ground albeit somewhat slowed by my grip. Got some bad rope burn and a nasty rear end bruise.

Why did I grip it that way? Well, I was probably too accustomed to ascending the rope that way when I'd solo with both the device and a microtrax. I'm an idiot, and I bet I'll stop and think momentarily before setting something similar up again.

Don't be an idiot, and stay safe out there!

Glad you didn't get (really) hurt. Can't imagine how scary those seconds were.

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