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Still B.A.E
Mar 24, 2012



I fell about 5m and hit a rock through my pad. RIP my ankle.

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modig
Aug 20, 2002


Puseklepp posted:

Wouldn't it be better to use the exercise in their video for tennis elbow, rather than golfer's elbow, which you linked?

Edit: actually, watching both videos, I'm unsure which one apply to me. My pain is centered not on either side the guy describes as either tennis or golfer's elbow. My pain is centered kind of in the middle of the elbow I guess, like, close to the knob of bone in the middle of the elbow. If I reach out my arm with palm facing downwards, the pain is on the right side of the forearm, which made me think it's tennis elbow.

Edit2: I'd like to go to a PT, but last time I went to a PT here I had to wait one month.

Mine seems to be a mix of what he describes as golfers and tennis elbow. A PT seems like a solid bet. Sorry for linking the wrong video, you seem to have found the right one as well.

Colonel J
Jan 3, 2008


Just got back from the gym, this is hard as hell! But so much fun. My forearms and fingers are shot. Right now it seems like my grip strength is by far my greatest weakness, although thinking back footwork would probably be it. It's really confusing when you're starting out and I need to learn to relax, take my time and place my feet. It's hard to do when I'm just barely hanging off the wall! I was able to get a few V1's in, which I'm pretty happy about.

Chris!
Dec 1, 2004

E

Intergortion posted:

I fell about 5m and hit a rock through my pad. RIP my ankle.

Ouch, that sucks. Is it bad...?

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



Colonel J posted:

Just got back from the gym, this is hard as hell! But so much fun. My forearms and fingers are shot. Right now it seems like my grip strength is by far my greatest weakness, although thinking back footwork would probably be it. It's really confusing when you're starting out and I need to learn to relax, take my time and place my feet. It's hard to do when I'm just barely hanging off the wall! I was able to get a few V1's in, which I'm pretty happy about.
Awesome! Yeah my first session was just like that, very exciting. The good news is your forearms only hurt like that for the first few sessions generally, and your grip is almost positively just fine. Couple more sessions and you will be able to focus more on the fun stuff.

Still B.A.E
Mar 24, 2012



Chris! posted:

Ouch, that sucks. Is it bad...?

Nah, just a sprain fortunately. Kind of annoying though as I'd only got to try two problems that day and there were loads of cool ones there. One to go back to, I guess.

MOVIE MAJICK
Jan 4, 2012



Intergortion posted:

I fell about 5m and hit a rock through my pad. RIP my ankle.

You have ankle pads?

modig
Aug 20, 2002


Baldbeard posted:

Awesome! Yeah my first session was just like that, very exciting. The good news is your forearms only hurt like that for the first few sessions generally, and your grip is almost positively just fine. Couple more sessions and you will be able to focus more on the fun stuff.

I sort of miss the days when one session would leave me so worked that I was sore all over, but yes it does pass.

Still B.A.E
Mar 24, 2012



WYA posted:

You have ankle pads?

My bouldering pad

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

modig posted:

Mine seems to be a mix of what he describes as golfers and tennis elbow. A PT seems like a solid bet. Sorry for linking the wrong video, you seem to have found the right one as well.

No worries, did both exercises. And I gotta say that it gave me instant relief better than anything I've ever tried before. Was incredible how good my arm felt after two sets of these extensions.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



Ah so stoked. I had a terrible day at work, and decided to do an impromptu climbing session before going home to crash. Somehow with no caffeine and work jeans, I managed to complete some projects I had been working on earlier in the week. I ended it recording myself doing some routes, but then soon learned how cellphone video of indoor climbing looks super lame and easy, so here's some stills instead. All about dat heel hook.

French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience


Baldbeard posted:

Ah so stoked. I had a terrible day at work, and decided to do an impromptu climbing session before going home to crash. Somehow with no caffeine and work jeans, I managed to complete some projects I had been working on earlier in the week. I ended it recording myself doing some routes, but then soon learned how cellphone video of indoor climbing looks super lame and easy, so here's some stills instead. All about dat heel hook.


I recognize that emergency exit door, but I don't quite recognize you...

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



French Canadian posted:

I recognize that emergency exit door, but I don't quite recognize you...

I only go once or twice a week around noon these days and strictly boulder.

Tarnien
Jul 4, 2003
Champion of the World!!!

Puseklepp posted:

Wouldn't it be better to use the exercise in their video for tennis elbow, rather than golfer's elbow, which you linked?

Edit: actually, watching both videos, I'm unsure which one apply to me. My pain is centered not on either side the guy describes as either tennis or golfer's elbow. My pain is centered kind of in the middle of the elbow I guess, like, close to the knob of bone in the middle of the elbow. If I reach out my arm with palm facing downwards, the pain is on the right side of the forearm, which made me think it's tennis elbow.

Edit2: I'd like to go to a PT, but last time I went to a PT here I had to wait one month.

Does doing any specific motion make it worse? Pull ups, push ups, moving your wrist? It seems unlikely that you'd have tennis elbow, as that's related to excessive extension of your wrist (the name comes from overuse of tennis players backhanding too much). If you hold your elbows at your side and palms up, the side of your elbow closest to your body is golfer's elbow, which is related to flexing your wrist/fingers (the muscles you use to grip tightly on a hold), while the side further away is tennis elbow, which as I said is related to opening your hands up/extending your wrist. If it's tender on one side or the other, then it's possibly one of those two. If it's tender in the middle, it could be your triceps or biceps (depending on if it's on the bottom or top, respectively). Or one of a million other things. Regardless, stay off it for a week or so, take some ibuprofen if it's inflamed, then ease back into climbing gently. See a PT if it comes back for a more accurate diagnosis and a better plan to fix it.

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

Tarnien posted:

Does doing any specific motion make it worse? Pull ups, push ups, moving your wrist? It seems unlikely that you'd have tennis elbow, as that's related to excessive extension of your wrist (the name comes from overuse of tennis players backhanding too much). If you hold your elbows at your side and palms up, the side of your elbow closest to your body is golfer's elbow, which is related to flexing your wrist/fingers (the muscles you use to grip tightly on a hold), while the side further away is tennis elbow, which as I said is related to opening your hands up/extending your wrist. If it's tender on one side or the other, then it's possibly one of those two. If it's tender in the middle, it could be your triceps or biceps (depending on if it's on the bottom or top, respectively). Or one of a million other things. Regardless, stay off it for a week or so, take some ibuprofen if it's inflamed, then ease back into climbing gently. See a PT if it comes back for a more accurate diagnosis and a better plan to fix it.

Pull ups doesn't aggravate it at all. Wrist movement or push ups may. When I'm holding my hands like you say I'd say the pain is somewhere between the outer side and the middle of the elbow. I'm starting to wonder whether it is tennis elbow or what the gently caress it is, and the pain is still present one week in, so decided to go see a PT and go from there, as I think that is my best bet of getting back in business sooner rather than later. If I'm lucky it's just like last time I had pain in the same area some years ago and it was just really stiff musculature.

Tarnien
Jul 4, 2003
Champion of the World!!!

Puseklepp posted:

Pull ups doesn't aggravate it at all. Wrist movement or push ups may. When I'm holding my hands like you say I'd say the pain is somewhere between the outer side and the middle of the elbow. I'm starting to wonder whether it is tennis elbow or what the gently caress it is, and the pain is still present one week in, so decided to go see a PT and go from there, as I think that is my best bet of getting back in business sooner rather than later. If I'm lucky it's just like last time I had pain in the same area some years ago and it was just really stiff musculature.

When you say "between the outer side and the middle" -- is it on the top or bottom (holding your elbows/hands like I said)? Or is it deep inside? Is it tender to touch anywhere? Anyways, the PT/doctor will have a better idea and they'll get you sorted out better than any internet detective can. You could do some stretches in the meantime and see if that helps.

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

Tarnien posted:

When you say "between the outer side and the middle" -- is it on the top or bottom (holding your elbows/hands like I said)? Or is it deep inside? Is it tender to touch anywhere? Anyways, the PT/doctor will have a better idea and they'll get you sorted out better than any internet detective can. You could do some stretches in the meantime and see if that helps.

If I hold my hands out with palms out, the pain is facing down. There is a slightly tender area about three fingers away from the elbow. I have also found out that the main movement that cause pain is if I flex my arm AND move it upwards. If I do that, I'll sometimes feel tension around my elbow.

Tarnien
Jul 4, 2003
Champion of the World!!!

Puseklepp posted:

If I hold my hands out with palms out, the pain is facing down. There is a slightly tender area about three fingers away from the elbow. I have also found out that the main movement that cause pain is if I flex my arm AND move it upwards. If I do that, I'll sometimes feel tension around my elbow.

Well you have a nerve that runs in that area, and that motion would stretch it out which could cause pain. But again, internet detective and all. Go see the doctor and see what they say.

Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005



I think it would be interesting to see what you guys do to improve your climbing ability. Plateauing is a major thing that climbers worry about and since climbing requires many different skill sets and abilities it's sometimes hard to pinpoint why we stop improving. Sooo if you're interested do some self-assessment!

Where are you now skill-wise, what have you done recently to improve and what are your plans for the season?

I'm currently climbing three times a week and outdoor season has just started here in Sweden. Last season I was at a 7a level outdoors for short term projects, with a max level at around 7b (5.12b) and believe my major weaknesses was muscle strength. I have focused on bouldering the last three months and have noticed an increase in shoulder and arm strength, and improved twitch muscle strength for stronger dynamic movements. Bouldering has also helped me with technique - two things being better heel hooks and better coordinated dynamic moves. I have also added several injury prevention exercises to counteract bicep tendinitis.

Right now I'm focusing on anaerobic training and leading for a month coupled with outdoor climbing to improve my endurance. Each lead I finish I will finish off with a fall and will also attempt moves that I know I will fall on rather than having the slack taken in to keep my lead psyche in the right place.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



Sigmund Fraud posted:

I think it would be interesting to see what you guys do to improve your climbing ability. Plateauing is a major thing that climbers worry about and since climbing requires many different skill sets and abilities it's sometimes hard to pinpoint why we stop improving. Sooo if you're interested do some self-assessment!

Where are you now skill-wise, what have you done recently to improve and what are your plans for the season?

I'm currently climbing three times a week and outdoor season has just started here in Sweden. Last season I was at a 7a level outdoors for short term projects, with a max level at around 7b (5.12b) and believe my major weaknesses was muscle strength. I have focused on bouldering the last three months and have noticed an increase in shoulder and arm strength, and improved twitch muscle strength for stronger dynamic movements. Bouldering has also helped me with technique - two things being better heel hooks and better coordinated dynamic moves. I have also added several injury prevention exercises to counteract bicep tendinitis.

Right now I'm focusing on anaerobic training and leading for a month coupled with outdoor climbing to improve my endurance. Each lead I finish I will finish off with a fall and will also attempt moves that I know I will fall on rather than having the slack taken in to keep my lead psyche in the right place.

I'm roughly around V6 (7a). I'm just now back to where I left off after a pulley injury from slipping on a crimp months ago.
I only boulder, so I feel like my strength is good for where I'm at, but I think I rely on my muscular strength too much and end up tiring myself out quickly by "pushing through" sketchy moves instead of restarting. To remedy this, I've been spending more time on easier routes and really exaggerating movements for general technique. For example, doing a V2 or V3, but extreme flagging, heel hooking, knee-baring where possible, skipping as many holds as possible. Basically trying to practice advanced technique and big big moves on easier holds, so I can do the motions many times without tiring out. Also picked up jogging, am slowly losing weight through diet, and incorporated stuff like burpees into my home workouts for general endurance/conditioning.

Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

gently caress me, you guys are good! I'm about a V3, but unfortunately I haven't had time to climb much since I moved to Berlin a couple weeks ago. I think one of my main weaknesses has been just powering through routes with strength rather than improving technique, so I've been doing a lot of technical routes where strength will only take you so far. It helps that these routes are typically a bit outside my skill range, so hopefully it'll keep me from plateauing too much.

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

Tarnien posted:

Well you have a nerve that runs in that area, and that motion would stretch it out which could cause pain. But again, internet detective and all. Go see the doctor and see what they say.

Yeah, went to book an appointment with the PT today, surprisingly there was an open spot tomorrow. Usually I have to wait two weeks to a month, so pleasant surprise there

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA

Sigmund Fraud posted:

I think it would be interesting to see what you guys do to improve your climbing ability. Plateauing is a major thing that climbers worry about and since climbing requires many different skill sets and abilities it's sometimes hard to pinpoint why we stop improving. Sooo if you're interested do some self-assessment!

Where are you now skill-wise, what have you done recently to improve and what are your plans for the season?

I'm currently climbing three times a week and outdoor season has just started here in Sweden. Last season I was at a 7a level outdoors for short term projects, with a max level at around 7b (5.12b) and believe my major weaknesses was muscle strength. I have focused on bouldering the last three months and have noticed an increase in shoulder and arm strength, and improved twitch muscle strength for stronger dynamic movements. Bouldering has also helped me with technique - two things being better heel hooks and better coordinated dynamic moves. I have also added several injury prevention exercises to counteract bicep tendinitis.

Right now I'm focusing on anaerobic training and leading for a month coupled with outdoor climbing to improve my endurance. Each lead I finish I will finish off with a fall and will also attempt moves that I know I will fall on rather than having the slack taken in to keep my lead psyche in the right place.

What I do is climb harder and harder routes until I hurt myself so badly that I need to take 6 months off (usually around V5). Then I do other stuff for half a year. Repeat ad nauseam.

guppy
Sep 21, 2004

sting like a byob

I'm much less experienced than a lot of these guys, but what I do is try to always be doing a mixed bag of difficulty. I always want to be climbing some stuff that pushes my limits, but also some stuff that's not as demanding so that I can work on my technique. It's what I was taught and so far it's working pretty well for me.

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008


Recently been pushing through a plateau myself....finally. Been bouldering around 7's and on a good day 8's but now I'm consistently hammering those down too. I've started a campus board program as well as I built a peg board in my back yard to really work on one arm lock off strength. From switching to training more then climbing, when I do climb I feel a lot stronger. Also I've incorporated once a week the "Daniel woods special" which you should be able to find the video of it on YouTube. If anyone has questions about strength gains ask away. By the way my plateau was caused by excessive drinking and eating like a neck beard more so then usual. So nutrition, nutrition, nutrition people

tynam
May 14, 2007


I'm a solid V2, starting to put away more and more V3's though but not consistently enough yet. Been climbing for around 6 months now, 3 times a week. I finally have confidence on crimpy edges, which was my major roadblock getting higher up the grades. To improve I just climbed the hell out of crimpy problems, which culminated in flashing a crimpy V3 last week, so I'm hopefully busting through this mini-plateau. I picked up a hangboard at around my third month when I got stuck, and did static hangs off my fingers (while having a footrest, still can't do it completely unaided) as well which probably helped too.

I actually had a follow up question - how long have you guys been climbing until you got injured? The kind of injury that puts you out of climbing for 1+ months (tendon injuries/sprains or whatever). I've only had a mild ankle sprain so far but nothing serious enough to keep me from climbing. Judging by all the injury posts though, I'm guessing it might just be a matter of time before I'm due.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



4 years and I have never been hurt climbing. I only boulder up to V3 outside and lead around 10.C. I usually take the winter off and slowly get back into it in the summer.

Also I obviously just jinxed the hell out of myself.

Still B.A.E
Mar 24, 2012



Sigmund Fraud posted:


Where are you now skill-wise, what have you done recently to improve and what are your plans for the season?

In 2012 I was climbing around font 7b+/7c (v8/9), training hard and probably in the best shape of my life. I then lost pretty much all of 2013 to glandular fever and have regressed to mid font 6ish level (v4?). I'm still having issues with a bit of tiredness etc, but I seem to have just about found my balance in that respect.

The real issue so far has been a mental one. Falling from a level where I felt I was climbing better than ever and breaking through plateaus to feeling like I'm back to where I started has been very difficult to take, and for a while I lost all motivation for climbing.

I've just recently accepted that I'm going to be worse than I used to be and started climbing a lot again and it owns, so basically my immediate goals are just to suck it up and climb as much as possible, and try to be realistic and not get injured. Not looking at grades in the guidebook when I go out and just getting on lines that strike me has helped a lot too.

modig
Aug 20, 2002


Papercut posted:

What I do is climb harder and harder routes until I hurt myself so badly that I need to take 6 months off (usually around V5). Then I do other stuff for half a year. Repeat ad nauseam.

Yep. Sometimes I mix in some easy trad/alpine routes in the downtime.

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008


quote:

I actually had a follow up question - how long have you guys been climbing until you got injured? The kind of injury that puts you out of climbing for 1+ months (tendon injuries/sprains or whatever). I've only had a mild ankle sprain so far but nothing serious enough to keep me from climbing. Judging by all the injury posts though, I'm guessing it might just be a matter of time before I'm due.

I climbed maybe two years before my first injury which to be honest almost all of my finger/arm injuries are due to not warming up fully. Which I can't stress enough! I always warm up 25-30 minutes before I pull onto anything even moderate. Warm up being non strenuous static climbing at low grades as well as stretching before that.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



tynam posted:

I'm a solid V2, starting to put away more and more V3's though but not consistently enough yet. Been climbing for around 6 months now, 3 times a week. I finally have confidence on crimpy edges, which was my major roadblock getting higher up the grades. To improve I just climbed the hell out of crimpy problems, which culminated in flashing a crimpy V3 last week, so I'm hopefully busting through this mini-plateau. I picked up a hangboard at around my third month when I got stuck, and did static hangs off my fingers (while having a footrest, still can't do it completely unaided) as well which probably helped too.

I actually had a follow up question - how long have you guys been climbing until you got injured? The kind of injury that puts you out of climbing for 1+ months (tendon injuries/sprains or whatever). I've only had a mild ankle sprain so far but nothing serious enough to keep me from climbing. Judging by all the injury posts though, I'm guessing it might just be a matter of time before I'm due.

I was climbing for a little over a year, and didn't have any problems at all until I started breaking into V5, v6. Then I got a mild pulley injury that put me out for 5 months, and although I feel fully recovered, I still have slightly tender "bump" at the injury site which I think may just be permanent scar tissue.

Finger injuries generally happen over time through repetition, or suddenly on certain types of holds or hold/movement combos. It's unlikely that you will get a sudden acute injury without distinctly seeing the possibility first though.

I like difficult routes that are difficult because they require big dynamic movement, isometric holds, complicated betas with stuff like double-heel hooks and knee-bars, or require a lot of strength to lock-off arms in certain positions etc.... these types of routes usually aren't as taxing on your fingers. The stuff I try to avoid are the simple routes that are made difficult just because the holds are impossibly tiny or uncomfortable, or routes that are moderate until a crux move that requires you to match on a hold the size of a kiwi. Every time my gym sets new routes, there's always one route that's just a left-right-left ladder to the top, but made entirely out of crimps so it's gradeded V5 - V7. Those are the kinds of routes you want to be extra careful on. I regularly see people who climb V8+ look at V5 routes like that, and say "gently caress that, I don't want to get injured"

Manstrocity
Apr 28, 2009


I think it's about time to start throwing in more bouldering. I broke into 11's on sport in the past year, but bouldering I got to V3 in like 8 months and am still V3/4 two years later. Plus I need to find a regular climbing partner who's better than me.

If I were serious I'd probably get video of myself climbing and then watch it for all the things I could do better, but I won't.

Puseklepp
Jan 9, 2011

like watching the most beautiful ballerina on the best stage

Went to a PT regarding my elbow. Luckily he couldn't find any inflammations or serious injury, though he did find a somewhat limited range of motion in my right arm compared to my left. Probably done something to irritate the joint, but nothing serious, so can go back to climbing

Still gonna take one more week off climbing just to let the irritation settle, though.

French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience


When I started bouldering I had crippling elbow pain in both elbows when I got to V3s (about a year's time). I think my joints just didn't know what the gently caress. Now it's mainly my fingers that bother me, 6 years in.

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008


Video from a ccs comp we just had. I set men's 1 and women's 1 finals route. Andy lamb showed up and cleaned house fresh from placing third at nationals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJ3QNgdRh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Endjinneer
Aug 17, 2005


Fallen Rib

Chris! posted:


And at the start of May a big group of us are going to Dartmoor for a climbing weekend, which will be mostly top-roping as I've still got to learn to lead/trad climb!


While you're there and waiting for other people to climb, borrow whatever gear isn't in use and have a scamper around trying to place it.
You'll soon get a feel of what type of placements take rocks, hexes, cams and so on. Pay attention to the way passive gear can still cam into the rock, and how friends can rotate and walk around in cracks. Consider which way a piece of gear would be loaded if you fell onto it.

Maybe even try racking stuff on your harness, climbing a foot off the ground and placing gear while you're on the rock to get an idea of that pumped-out blurry panicked nothing-will-loving-fit fumbling.

Practice removing the gear too, otherwise you will run out of climbing partners very fast. Beware - Dartmoor granite takes lots of gear but doesn't like to give it back.

Mausi
Apr 11, 2006



I boulder in South/East London UK, if anyone is about and wants to grab a beer/ribs sometime. I'm being careful with a minor injury on my left hand and only climbing easy static stuff for a few weeks, so I could even come belay someone if they need a partner.

I think I saw someone link a good core routine in this thread a while back, although I can't find it now - it involved multiple sets of 10 reps of several kinds of movement, including raising up on your shoulders and tapping the air above you with your toes (don't know what this move is called), does anyone have a link?

Chris!
Dec 1, 2004

E

Endjinneer posted:

While you're there and waiting for other people to climb, borrow whatever gear isn't in use and have a scamper around trying to place it.
You'll soon get a feel of what type of placements take rocks, hexes, cams and so on. Pay attention to the way passive gear can still cam into the rock, and how friends can rotate and walk around in cracks. Consider which way a piece of gear would be loaded if you fell onto it.

Maybe even try racking stuff on your harness, climbing a foot off the ground and placing gear while you're on the rock to get an idea of that pumped-out blurry panicked nothing-will-loving-fit fumbling.

Practice removing the gear too, otherwise you will run out of climbing partners very fast. Beware - Dartmoor granite takes lots of gear but doesn't like to give it back.

Thanks for the suggestion! That's a great idea and I'll give it a go.

Had a great indoor climbing followed by outdoor bouldering session today, and my friend and I are considering just buying 40m or so of rope and slings, and going ahead and having a go at setting up top ropes ourselves at the southern sandstone - how hard can it be? - and also having a go at leading indoors later in the week.

Had to take too long off from climbing due to injury this summer, and it feels great to be able to climb enthusiastically again.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

40m of rope isn't likely to be enough unless you're able to belay from above.

Rope manufacturers don't even sell 40s, and 50s are going out of style because they aren't long enough for most US routes.

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Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005



Chris! posted:

my friend and I are considering just buying 40m or so of rope and slings, and going ahead and having a go at setting up top ropes ourselves at the southern sandstone - how hard can it be?
Just be sure to know what you're doing. I've seen twice people setting up incorrect anchors. In one case the rope was threaded along and through a sling, causing the sling to almost burn off before I got them to stop. The second case had two ropes in parallel through an anchor, melting the second rope when repelling off the first.
There are many things to consider when setting up an anchor, how to protect the fixed slings from friction, how to balance loads and avoid magnifying them (eg the american death triangle). You also need to know how to rep to safely set up the anchors in some places.

In short: Sure you can do it but I would recommend just going a quick course in outdoor lead climbing and buy quickdraws instead of slings. You get to climb much more because you avoid the logistics of setting up anchors. One day with a guide and you will know the ropes (heh). If you climb under prepared you really do risk dying. And that would be pretty silly.

E: Also, buy a longer rope! Look up all the local crags and buy a rope 10 meters longer than the routes (you will need some extra since you will trim it down when the ends starts getting worn.

Sigmund Fraud fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 17, 2014

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