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French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience


ConspicuousEvil posted:

What's your pre and post climbing routine like? It could also be that you've just plateaued in terms of finger strength and need to start a hangboard routine.

Just warming up on easy stuff when I get to the gym. No warm down which I know isn't ideal. I should get a squish ball or other finger thing to squeeze on during my drive home.

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Discomancer
Aug 31, 2001

I'm on a cupcake caper!

FreakerByTheSpeaker posted:

I suppose I could have been more specific about my goals. I definitely want to get better at rock climbing, and maybe even just supplement it with lifting. If I could at least do some bouldering 2-3 times a week instead of lifting, I would be down but I didn't know how much your muscles/fingers can handle once you develop the specific strength to get going (holy Jesus if my forearms aren't shot for a few days after right now.)

I live in Chicago, there isn't much opportunity for climbing that isn't at the gym, but if I could climb instead of lift except maybe a leg and/or chest/back day, that would be awesome.

You can climb a few times a week, but spend some time working on quiet feet, breathing, body positioning (weight on your feet, not your arms), working on building muscle memory for flagging, heel hooks, drop knees, heel hooks, backstepping, heel hooks, and moving with your hips. Consciously working on technique will be the quickest way to climb longer/harder to reduce that 3 day long forearm pump.

ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004


Pillbug

French Canadian posted:

Just warming up on easy stuff when I get to the gym. No warm down which I know isn't ideal. I should get a squish ball or other finger thing to squeeze on during my drive home.

Yea those grip deals don't do much of anything. You want to make sure you've got something that's fairly systematic with your warm-up i.e. starting at V0, doing at least one or two of each grade up to your project grade and being sure to climb things with different hold types. If I know I will have to be closed-crimping later on (more applicable to outside), I make sure to get on something vertical with good feel and go through the different crimp positions at a hold with steadily more and more off my feet. When you get home stick your fingers in an ice bath for 10-15 minutes, ideally you should do this more than an hour after you work out and, if you can, do it once some other time in the day. I usually just mix 2 parts water to 1 part ice, it doesn't have to be super painfully cold, but it'll probably hurt a little bit.

FreakerByTheSpeaker
Dec 3, 2006

You got your good things
And I've got mine


Discomancer posted:

You can climb a few times a week, but spend some time working on quiet feet, breathing, body positioning (weight on your feet, not your arms), working on building muscle memory for flagging, heel hooks, drop knees, heel hooks, backstepping, heel hooks, and moving with your hips. Consciously working on technique will be the quickest way to climb longer/harder to reduce that 3 day long forearm pump.

I picked up the Self-Coached Climber on this thread's recommendation, although a bit ago people seemed to not like it. Anyway, I'll go through their exercises, which looks familiar to what you wrote. Any other good resources for training?

Discomancer
Aug 31, 2001

I'm on a cupcake caper!

FreakerByTheSpeaker posted:

I picked up the Self-Coached Climber on this thread's recommendation, although a bit ago people seemed to not like it. Anyway, I'll go through their exercises, which looks familiar to what you wrote. Any other good resources for training?
SCC is good, it's just geared for people who try to peak once or twice a year instead of climbing year round. How to Climb 5.12 is another pretty good book worth looking at. A lot of the fundamental exercises involve silent hands/feet, and building correct muscle memory for route reading--you'll "get it" when you just naturally do an unusual move because "of course that's what you'd do there, your feet are here, your hips are here, and you're reaching for there" is your body remembering these moves from similar positions and you translating that while route reading.

Or try https://www.howtothrowasickheelhook.com

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:



I'm predominantly a boulderer even though I've been slacking at that. I've been rope climbing a few times but not for years. I recently went and had another introduction as I'd forgotten how to tie my rope and such.

If you want to improve your climbing, go loving bouldering. I'm really not great at it but I was doing pretty drat well at top roping due to it, hauling myself up stuff several grades higher without much difficulty. Finished on a 6a+/5.10a which I'm pretty happy with for a first session.

This joint is my 'local' place, if you're in the UK midlands you should definitely check it out. http://www.bouldercentral.co.uk/

Chris!
Dec 1, 2004

E

88h88 posted:

I'm predominantly a boulderer even though I've been slacking at that. I've been rope climbing a few times but not for years. I recently went and had another introduction as I'd forgotten how to tie my rope and such.

If you want to improve your climbing, go loving bouldering. I'm really not great at it but I was doing pretty drat well at top roping due to it, hauling myself up stuff several grades higher without much difficulty. Finished on a 6a+/5.10a which I'm pretty happy with for a first session.

This joint is my 'local' place, if you're in the UK midlands you should definitely check it out. http://www.bouldercentral.co.uk/

In a reverse of this situation, I used to just boulder all the time, but since April haven't bouldered at all, but have been climbing loads with ropes, both in the gym and loads outdoors in England and abroad.

I thought that this would have made improvements in my bouldering, but I went bouldering again on Tuesday night and loving sucked! When I last went I was around font 6b, but I didn't complete any 6's and struggled on some 5a's and 5b's!

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:



Chris! posted:

In a reverse of this situation, I used to just boulder all the time, but since April haven't bouldered at all, but have been climbing loads with ropes, both in the gym and loads outdoors in England and abroad.

I thought that this would have made improvements in my bouldering, but I went bouldering again on Tuesday night and loving sucked! When I last went I was around font 6b, but I didn't complete any 6's and struggled on some 5a's and 5b's!

I've noticed that people who tend to use ropes struggle a bit bouldering and I've no idea why. There has to be a decent reason somewhere.

tynam
May 14, 2007


88h88 posted:

I've noticed that people who tend to use ropes struggle a bit bouldering and I've no idea why. There has to be a decent reason somewhere.

Roped climbing teaches you to be as efficient with your moves and as static as possible. Bouldering is pretty much the opposite, since you're usually fighting just to stay on the boulder. When I boulder, I always feel like I'm using 100% of everything I have, whereas when I'm roped in, I'm usually at 50~75% until I hit a rough stretch/crux.

So a primarily roped climber's tendency would be to try to conserve energy on a boulder problem and not fully commit everything from the onset, making subsequent hard moves feel even harder. On the flip side, a boulderer would burn through their energy much faster on a roped climb and usually pump out far quicker than a roped climber.

Amusing anecdote - I know a few really strong boulderers at my gym who are around the V7/V8 range. I actually got to see them roped climb the other day randomly, and they were struggling up 5.10c/d's on top rope.

Sharks Eat Bear
Dec 25, 2004


88h88 posted:

I've noticed that people who tend to use ropes struggle a bit bouldering and I've no idea why. There has to be a decent reason somewhere.

Bouldering requires a lot of power (think dynamic movement, force + speed), which is highly responsive to exercise/lack thereof. So you can build power relatively quickly by bouldering or campusing, but if you don't train power it will also decline relatively quickly. Lead climbing requires a lot more endurance, which takes longer to build but also sticks around longer. Especially at moderate grades, you'll probably get very little power benefit from lead climbing or top roping.

Poster above may be right about different mentalities, but this is my understanding of the physiological reason.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012




I was a very poor climber, but starting lifting and developing strength and power made me surprisingly good at boulders (being able to finish a moderate route vs. not being able to do an easy-moderate boulder problem), but didn't help my top roping that much.

So in my experience, bouldering is very power focused and any route not for babies will have you fight for every hold to some degree. Top roping is more about avoiding getting pumped and conserving energy.

Of course, Ondra won the bouldering championships and is actually a lead climber so ymmv

dex_sda fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Aug 28, 2014

Sharks Eat Bear
Dec 25, 2004


dex_sda posted:

Of course, Ondra won the bouldering championships and is actually a lead climber so ymmv

i don't think i'd call ondra a lead climber categorically. much like sharma, he has pretty much dominated both fields, though seems to be more interested in hard sport. here is video proof that he is also a bad rear end boulder (one of my fav vids to stoke psyche before a training sesh!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl0iKtIAbrM

Endjinneer
Aug 17, 2005


Fallen Rib

big scary monsters posted:

...I am still a little nervous that I won't have a head for leading any more.

Here's an interesting video from DMM on breaking slings:
https://vimeo.com/27293337

There's nothing more satisfying than getting your lead head back on, when you can look between your feet and smile at gravity.

I was wondering if that DMM video would turn up. It's freaking everyone out about perfectly good kit because they're watching the scary fall tests but then missing the messages at the end (always have a dynamic link in the system). I also think it's a little misleading because your body isn't going to behave like a lump of steel. You'll hyperextend your spine and dislocate limbs and get whiplash and all sorts of bad things, but what these things all do is reduce the forces involved.

Worked example:
If you weigh 80kg and want to load 20kN onto your dyneema anchor, you need to decelerate at 250m/s^2. So if you fall 1.2m onto a static anchor, you're going 4.9m/s when the rope goes tight. You'd need to stop in a distance of 47mm.
Put another way, you need to be able to experience 25g acceleration applied at your bellybutton with an average movement of your body mass (through flailing limbs etc) of no more than 2".

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-


Sharks Eat Bear posted:

i don't think i'd call ondra a lead climber categorically. much like sharma, he has pretty much dominated both fields, though seems to be more interested in hard sport.
If you listen to top tier sport climbers talking about their routes they'll often say things along the lines of "it's a V10 boulder start to an 8b+ section followed by a V12 crux and then 8a to the top. 8c overall." (for example, I don't know if those grades really add up). At that level I think the moves are often so powerful and difficult that if you can climb them you're going to have to be a pretty strong boulderer anyway. I don't know how much that holds true for top trad climbers - the routes aren't necessarily a lot easier but I think the volume of climbing they do at their physical limit is probably less.

Endjinneer posted:

There's nothing more satisfying than getting your lead head back on, when you can look between your feet and smile at gravity.
Yeah, we had a great weekend (apart from the midges). I wasn't actually nearly as bad as I expected, got a little jittery once or twice but I took a few deep breaths and thought about how easy the moves would seem if I were a metre above my pad rather than 150 above the ground and pushed on through. My climbing partner knew I hadn't tied on in ages so obviously she let me lead all the hard pitches. :D

That video is a little scary but I'm not about to throw out all my dyneema slings just yet. Not allowing slack in the belay is like the number one rule of belay building and you should be equalising your anchors with your rope where possible anyway. Unless you've done something incredibly dumb you're never going to reach the forces they see in the drop tests.

Chris!
Dec 1, 2004

E

tynam posted:

Roped climbing teaches you to be as efficient with your moves and as static as possible. Bouldering is pretty much the opposite, since you're usually fighting just to stay on the boulder. When I boulder, I always feel like I'm using 100% of everything I have, whereas when I'm roped in, I'm usually at 50~75% until I hit a rough stretch/crux.

So a primarily roped climber's tendency would be to try to conserve energy on a boulder problem and not fully commit everything from the onset, making subsequent hard moves feel even harder. On the flip side, a boulderer would burn through their energy much faster on a roped climb and usually pump out far quicker than a roped climber.

Amusing anecdote - I know a few really strong boulderers at my gym who are around the V7/V8 range. I actually got to see them roped climb the other day randomly, and they were struggling up 5.10c/d's on top rope.

Yeah, when I had been primarily bouldering for a long time, and suddenly changed to ropes, I struggled with my endurance for a while.

Now my endurance has gone up loads on ropes routes, I sort of thought I'd see big improvements going back to bouldering - was a bit shocked to see I've lost power! Will have to try and mix things up more often, and try and achieve a mix of both skills...

Sharks Eat Bear
Dec 25, 2004


Discomancer posted:

SCC is good, it's just geared for people who try to peak once or twice a year instead of climbing year round.

i think the better way of framing it is that, linear periodized training (like in SCC or the Anderson Brothers' Rock Climber's Training Manual) recognizes that climbing performance comes in peaks regardless of how you train/climb, so you might as well try to control those peaks and make them predictable. i think most climbers that follow a periodized training program climb year round, but they use the program to train for specific objectives (a goal route, a roadtrip or vacation, etc.).

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:






Both of these make sense thanks. Like I said I boulder more than I top rope so I think I'm definitely more in the brute force and ignorance school of climbing when it comes to being harnessed up. I definitely need to work on my endurance as that last climb was testing my grip a bit.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012




Any good resources on accessory strength training to improve bouldering specifically?

ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004


Pillbug

dex_sda posted:

Any good resources on accessory strength training to improve bouldering specifically?

What do you mean by accessory strength?

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012




ConspicuousEvil posted:

What do you mean by accessory strength?

I'm looking to add accessory exercises to my 3xweek lifting to help my occassional bouldering. I wanna keep focusing on lifting, but as long as I'm in a gym, I want to add some extra work.

I would just boulder more often, but my schedule prohibits it.

e; I'll figure out fitting it into the program for adequate recovery on my own, I'm just wondering if there's a good resource for what kind of work would help

dex_sda fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Aug 31, 2014

ConspicuousEvil
Feb 29, 2004


Pillbug

dex_sda posted:

I'm looking to add accessory exercises to my 3xweek lifting to help my occassional bouldering. I wanna keep focusing on lifting, but as long as I'm in a gym, I want to add some extra work.

I would just boulder more often, but my schedule prohibits it.

e; I'll figure out fitting it into the program for adequate recovery on my own, I'm just wondering if there's a good resource for what kind of work would help

I would do lots of core exercises like front levers, leg lifts, etc, some one are pull-downs and maybe curls. Not a ton of what you do with normal lifting is going to benefit your climbing. The problem is that most of what our muscles do when we climb are isometric contractions, which you can't replicate without climbing-specific apparatus like hangboards and campus boards.

benwards
Apr 9, 2007

Another youthful indiscretion


dex_sda posted:

I'm looking to add accessory exercises to my 3xweek lifting to help my occassional bouldering. I wanna keep focusing on lifting, but as long as I'm in a gym, I want to add some extra work.

I would just boulder more often, but my schedule prohibits it.

e; I'll figure out fitting it into the program for adequate recovery on my own, I'm just wondering if there's a good resource for what kind of work would help

To be honest, the single best accessory exercise I've found for climbing is hanging leg lifts and other core strengtheners, as ConspicuousEvil suggests.

My menu of options:
Leg lifts from dead hang
Combined pullup and leg lift (static, no kipping)
Frenchies plus leg lifts
Front levers on rings
Toes-to-bar

Doing the exercises from dead hang or from either partial or full pull-up will work the isometric contraction too, though your best bet there is still probably hangboard exercises and just plain climbing more.

Baldbeard
Mar 26, 2011



benwards posted:

To be honest, the single best accessory exercise I've found for climbing is hanging leg lifts and other core strengtheners, as ConspicuousEvil suggests.

My menu of options:
Leg lifts from dead hang
Combined pullup and leg lift (static, no kipping)
Frenchies plus leg lifts
Front levers on rings
Toes-to-bar

Doing the exercises from dead hang or from either partial or full pull-up will work the isometric contraction too, though your best bet there is still probably hangboard exercises and just plain climbing more.

Yeah, totally agree. Leg lifts from dead hang, toes-to-bar, knees-to-bar, anything that mimics a move where you have to get your feet "up there" on the wall really helps. Even stuff like 1-armed dead hangs, 1-armed leg lifts if you wana get advanced. Working your core and grip at the same time like that is probably the biggest bang for your buck you can get outside the wall itself.

lime rind
Jul 10, 2014


As a beginner with no belaying experience, I'm wondering how much strength it requires. Since climbing makes my forearms pretty tired, I'm worried I won't have the strength for belaying my partner. Should I get some level of conditioning before learning to belay, or is it not as hard as I'm thinking?

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-


It really takes very little strength, I've regularly seen children belaying their parents. You aren't holding your partner's weight on your arm, the belay plate does all the work. The only exception is on some trad routes where you're belaying from above and there's a lot of rope drag so you're really having to haul to take it in.

Mahlertov Cocktail
Mar 1, 2010

I ate your Mahler avatar! Hahahaha!

big scary monsters posted:

It really takes very little strength, I've regularly seen children belaying their parents.

This is a terrible idea though. If the parent takes a big fall, the kid could easily get yanked a good way up the wall, which yeah is better than no belay at all, but could still be dangerous for both people.

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-


I mean I wouldn't recommend it for 7 year olds or anything but I think teenagers can handle it pretty safely. As long as you don't let go of the brake rope being lifted into the air is no big deal really, happens all the time with petite girls belaying their 16 stone boyfriends for example.

benwards
Apr 9, 2007

Another youthful indiscretion


Mahlertov Cocktail posted:

This is a terrible idea though. If the parent takes a big fall, the kid could easily get yanked a good way up the wall, which yeah is better than no belay at all, but could still be dangerous for both people.

That's what belay anchors are for. e: in the gym, obviously. And, equally obviously, you shouldn't have a 7-year-old belaying. Kids that young aren't always the best at staying attentive.

But yes, in general, belaying takes basically no strength. Just be careful and attentive.

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-


benwards posted:

And, equally obviously, you shouldn't have a 7-year-old belaying. Kids that young aren't always the best at staying attentive.
Yeah, absolutely. You can have groups of little kids belaying one another safely, getting them to do "bell-ringing" with a Gri-gri, but obviously you have to supervise them continuously to make sure that they haven't got bored and stopped taking in slack or just let go of the rope completely. e: And you have to lower them off yourself.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012




benwards posted:

To be honest, the single best accessory exercise I've found for climbing is hanging leg lifts and other core strengtheners, as ConspicuousEvil suggests.

My menu of options:
Leg lifts from dead hang
Combined pullup and leg lift (static, no kipping)
Frenchies plus leg lifts
Front levers on rings
Toes-to-bar

Doing the exercises from dead hang or from either partial or full pull-up will work the isometric contraction too, though your best bet there is still probably hangboard exercises and just plain climbing more.

I do dead hang pullups and chins already, farmer's walks and static holds for grip, and planks for core. I'll add toes-to-bar and leg lifts. Thanks

Siamang
Nov 15, 2003


Static barbell/dumbbell holds? If so, consider switching to plate holds, either with a fat bumper plate or a pair of metal plates with the smooth side facing outwards. The pinch grip used in those has had better carryover to bouldering for me.

dex_sda
Oct 11, 2012




Siamang posted:

Static barbell/dumbbell holds? If so, consider switching to plate holds, either with a fat bumper plate or a pair of metal plates with the smooth side facing outwards. The pinch grip used in those has had better carryover to bouldering for me.

Barbell, to finish out my heavy deadlift day. Plate holds sound like an excellent idea.

benwards
Apr 9, 2007

Another youthful indiscretion


dex_sda posted:

I do dead hang pullups and chins already, farmer's walks and static holds for grip, and planks for core. I'll add toes-to-bar and leg lifts. Thanks

Combining leg lifts and pullups is really the best IMO. Pull up to halfway, hold it, lift your legs slowly, keep them parallel, and pull up the rest of the way. Then stop halfway on the way down to lower your legs before fully extending your arms. There's all kinds of ways to make it more difficult. I don't see much sense in training grip specifically via plate holds, etc, though. For that you should really just get a hangboard. It's a different kind of grip strength entirely.

Nifty
Aug 31, 2004



I'm traveling to Denver and gamera009 and I are going to meet up and go climbing out of Boulder, CO. This is in two weeks, on Saturday Sep 13th mid-day. Any other goons want to join send me a message!

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



Nifty posted:

I'm traveling to Denver and gamera009 and I are going to meet up and go climbing out of Boulder, CO. This is in two weeks, on Saturday Sep 13th mid-day. Any other goons want to join send me a message!

I should be free and am in. Bouldering or sport?

gamera009
Apr 7, 2005



spwrozek posted:

I should be free and am in. Bouldering or sport?

Was thinking of either satellites or flagstaff.

I hate that flag is super sandbagged though. :(

I haven't seen satellites since the flood, so that might be the best choice. We can throw nifty on OG. :c00lbert:

Pedestrian Xing
Jul 18, 2007



My climbing group got really busy so I hadn't climbed in months, but I just moved to Atlanta and wet to one of the gyms here. Any atlanta goons want to go climbing?

Claes Oldenburger
Apr 23, 2010

Metal magician!
:black101:



Whoever suggested rice buckets, thank you. Thank you so much. Also now I feel like a kung fu master while training! :D

chami
Mar 28, 2011

Keep it classy, boys~


Fun Shoe



So I got a little bleeding under my calluses after a pretty rough bouldering session. It's nothing to be worried about, right? I just let it heal up for a day or two and go back on the wall? I'm used to calluses from deadlifting so they don't bother me but the blood is new.

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spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



gamera009 posted:

Was thinking of either satellites or flagstaff.

I hate that flag is super sandbagged though. :(

I haven't seen satellites since the flood, so that might be the best choice. We can throw nifty on OG. :c00lbert:

Word, sounds good. Just let me know and I will bring the pad.

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