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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017


Mors Rattus posted:

It also ran into some problems elsewhere - identification of any kind of science with the evil forces of anti-imagination, in a lot of its books. Also a lot of creepy sex stuff for a game in which the average PC was under 18, but I think that was more on the fact that the writers usually forgot the average PC was under 18.

Which was weird on its own, considering what brought the noble fae back to Earth was the Apollo moon landing. Literally science creating wonder.

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DigitalRaven
Oct 9, 2012

When I kill you with a motor-car, you should have the common decency to stay dead, you horrid little object



Grimey Drawer

Mors Rattus posted:

Yeah, that stuff got added but pretty clearly by White Wolf, considering the poo poo they’ve been up to, and not by Rose Bailey or Rich Thomas, or... I don’t know who else is an actual OP employee these days. Neall?

It was White Wolf who put it in.

I know because I developed the book, I got their edits, and if I hadn't accepted their changes I (and possibly the other authors, Holden and David included) would not have been paid.

But expecting Holden not to fling poo poo around as a smokescreen for his ongoing enabling of Mørke is like expecting a dog to meow.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006


Heeeeeeey

DigitalRaven posted:

It was White Wolf who put it in.

I know because I developed the book, I got their edits, and if I hadn't accepted their changes I (and possibly the other authors, Holden and David included) would not have been paid.

But expecting Holden not to fling poo poo around as a smokescreen for his ongoing enabling of Mørke is like expecting a dog to meow.

That's some bullshit right there. Although yeah the Holden thing remains at him throwing tantrums.

DigitalRaven
Oct 9, 2012

When I kill you with a motor-car, you should have the common decency to stay dead, you horrid little object



Grimey Drawer

Kwyndig posted:

That's some bullshit right there. Although yeah the Holden thing remains at him throwing tantrums.

I'd got the first half of the payment, but if I did not see the book through to publication, I'd be in breach of contract. Pay on publication, after all.

The authors would still have been paid, as their work would probably still have been included in the book. I was catastrophising.

To be bluntly honest, I poured a lot of my heart and soul into WTA, then the Shattered Dreams sidebar happened, and then I got their edits to Changing Ways. At that point, I'm just going to get the book out with the changes that the property owners want, because they've demonstrated their opinion of my work so far.

DigitalRaven fucked around with this message at Jan 3, 2018 around 10:52

FishFood
Apr 1, 2012

Now with brine shrimp!


Is there a short history of White Wolf somewhere out there? I'm thoroughly confused by this editorial weirdness and the shift from kinda-progressive to... less so.

Flavivirus
Dec 13, 2011

Will that be all, sir?


DigitalRaven posted:

I'd got the first half of the payment, but if I did not see the book through to publication, I'd be in breach of contract. Pay on publication, after all.

The authors would still have been paid, as their work would probably still have been included in the book. I was catastrophising.

To be bluntly honest, I poured a lot of my heart and soul into WTA, then the Shattered Dreams sidebar happened, and then I got their edits to Changing Ways. At that point, I'm just going to get the book out with the changes that the property owners want, because they've demonstrated their opinion of my work so far.

Well, that's hosed. It's such a lovely thing to do to the authors who have done so much to keep these lines alive. I get the feeling new WW wishes the line just died in 2004 and Onyx Path never even existed.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


FishFood posted:

Is there a short history of White Wolf somewhere out there? I'm thoroughly confused by this editorial weirdness and the shift from kinda-progressive to... less so.

I don't remember the exact dates but the thing to keep in mind is White Wolf ceased to be a publisher when it merged with CCP (the EVE online people). Publication of the New World of Darkness books, other major WW properties like Scion and Exalted, and later the 20th anniversary editions of the oWoD books were contracted out to Onyx Path Publishing. OPP now outright owns Scion (not Exalted), and is still the licensed publisher for all of the old and new WoD lines and Exalted. When Paradox Interactive purchased WW and all its IPs the new CEO, a Swedish vampire laper, said he'd revive the oWoD games with new editions. My understanding now is that OPP still creates and publishes the new editions of the oWoD books but with heavy oversight from WW. nuWW doesn't seem to care much at all about what OPP does with the other properties.

e-I double checked, OPP is still publishing some oWoD books but like Mors said, nuWW is doing the new editions in-house.

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at Jan 3, 2018 around 12:43

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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2014-2018


Broadly speaking: White Wolf, the company, makes books. It gets bought out by CCP for the creation of a Vampire MMO.

It then gets massive layoffs and CCP fucks up the MMO and basically White Wolf is dead.

A number of White Wolf employees and former employees get together and form Onyx Path Publishing, to continue putting out books, and license out the right to do so from CCP.

They do this thing.

White Wolf, the property, then gets bought by Paradox. Paradox begins doing this weird poo poo. Currently all books are still being published by Onyx Path, but 5th Edition of all the oWoD stuff is going to be Paradox White Wolf in-house. White Wolf currently owns the IPs of all the World of Darkness games, and also Exalted. Scion got bought outright from CCP by Onyx Path a while ago.

E: Also Trinity. Onyx Path bought the Trinity series of games.

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at Jan 3, 2018 around 12:39

Loomer
Dec 19, 2007

A Very Special Hell

And in order to ensure 'compatability' between the idiocy NuWW is putting in their unreleased 5th Edition, they now insert sidebars and other content into OPP's 20th Anniversary/defacto 4th Edition books. And I do mean idiocy - the guy in charge at NuWW thinks phrases like 'full rear end-surprise sex stiffness' are the cutting edge of mature fiction.

Lord_Hambrose
Nov 21, 2008

*a foul hooting fills the air*


I generally like work by Kenneth Hite, but I think that is literally the only good thing I can say about the new Vampire game. Everything about it so far (and everything about nuWW in general) seems dreadful. I really wonder who they think the target audience with this new line is. Even if they get 100 percent of the Onyx Path fan base on board with this new edition, will the sales even matter to Paradox? I can't see them doing a broad enough advertising campaign to get legitimately new customers.

Obviously no. White Wolf is just a property farm now. A RPG line is just a novel toy.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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The target audience is oWoD LARPers. This is the White Wolf CEO's grand adventure where he gets to fix all the poo poo that bothered him in the 90s when he LARPed.

E: This isn't even a joke, Martin Ericsson (or whoever the "Lead Storyteller" is) is a man who posed for loving Dracula in a Vampire LARP book.

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007


Fallen Rib

So it's only oWoD getting new stuff published for it these days? Or is the nWoD still a thing?

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


OPP is still working on at least one new splat and new editions of the other splats for the nWoD books, but nuWW made them change the label of the line to the "Chronicles of Darkness" to "avoid confusion".

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at Jan 3, 2018 around 12:56

Lord_Hambrose
Nov 21, 2008

*a foul hooting fills the air*


Mors Rattus posted:

The target audience is oWoD LARPers. This is the White Wolf CEO's grand adventure where he gets to fix all the poo poo that bothered him in the 90s when he LARPed.

E: This isn't even a joke, Martin Ericsson (or whoever the "Lead Storyteller" is) is a man who posed for loving Dracula in a Vampire LARP book.

I had forgotten that part.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!


So what's the difference between the old World of Darkness, the new World of Darkness, and the new old World of Darkness?

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009


New Old World of Darkness is run by 90's edgelords and it ain't the 90's anymore.

Down With People
Oct 31, 2012

The child delights in violence.


The Bee posted:

So what's the difference between the old World of Darkness, the new World of Darkness, and the new old World of Darkness?

Good, good and bad in that order.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


The Bee posted:

So what's the difference between the old World of Darkness, the new World of Darkness, and the new old World of Darkness?

For nWoD and oWod, changes to rules and a distinct separation off the settings in lore and NPCs and stuff. It'd be like if 4e and 3e D&D coexisted and 3e had this massive 90s goth metaplot. The new editions of the oWoD are just rules updates and I guess you can feed on child solders for buffs now.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011



remusclaw posted:

New Old World of Darkness is run by 90's edgelords and it ain't the 90's anymore.

It should.

Goa Tse-tung
Feb 11, 2008

;3



Yams Fan

Plutonis posted:

It should.

No it shouldn't.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!


That makes sense. So when new stuff is released for the WoD lines, is it for the new old WoD, the old new WoD, or just for whatever the developers feel like writing for?

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011



Goa Tse-tung posted:

No it shouldn't.

It definitely should. VtM, Kult and other badarse 90s games are better stuff than most of the crap the industry churns out today.

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK AND
TWICE AS TALL


Plutonis posted:

It definitely should. VtM, Kult and other badarse 90s games are better stuff than most of the crap the industry churns out today.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

Loomer
Dec 19, 2007

A Very Special Hell

Plutonis posted:

It definitely should. VtM, Kult and other badarse 90s games are better stuff than most of the crap the industry churns out today.

Let the record show that forums user Plutonis is in favour of the Full rear end-surprise sex Stiffness edition of Vampire.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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The Bee posted:

That makes sense. So when new stuff is released for the WoD lines, is it for the new old WoD, the old new WoD, or just for whatever the developers feel like writing for?

World of Darkness now refers to the old WoD; as yet, 5th edition has yet to have any books released, but does have some utterly execrable tablet games. The 20th Anniversary Edition lines are still published by Onyx Path and are still getting some new books. White Wolf will be publishing their 5th Edition lines in-house.
Chronicles of Darkness now refers to the new WoD. It is still getting new books via Onyx Path.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017



DigitalRaven posted:

It was White Wolf who put it in.

I know because I developed the book, I got their edits, and if I hadn't accepted their changes I (and possibly the other authors, Holden and David included) would not have been paid.

But expecting Holden not to fling poo poo around as a smokescreen for his ongoing enabling of Mørke is like expecting a dog to meow.

Ugh. I figured it was something like that, or an accident because gently caress if that doesn't happen to the best of us. I haven't even seen the final product, so it's hard to speak to it. I wasn't sure if it was just a few passing, well-intended things that got blown up, or legit ugly.

And yeah, I don't at all blame you for those edits, whatever they may have been. FWIW, I HAVE been paid for that. Your efforts were fruitful in that regard. Thank you.

So sorry they hosed a game you clearly loved. For whatever it's worth, I love the few short bits I've done with you for the line. Editing for Rage Across the World was delightful. Writing for other books was great. You're a pleasure to work with, you bring great products to the table, and it's a shame they don't respect that.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012



The Bee posted:

That makes sense. So when new stuff is released for the WoD lines, is it for the new old WoD, the old new WoD, or just for whatever the developers feel like writing for?

W20 is being published by OPP and, prior to this. There is theoretically going to be fifth edition versions of vampire, werewolf, and mage published at some point, but so far the only fifth edition product was that terrible text message game written by he who shall not be named. Instead nuWolf is trying to turn the 20th anniversary books into 5th edition sourcebooks, or putting in sidebars to inform people that they're not canon since they're not written by nuWolf and nuWolf is the ip holder.

Actual new world of darkness stuff is now called chronicles of darkness and beyond forcing them to change the name, nuWolf has very little influence over it, if any.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
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2014-2018


Well, they still have right of refusal, as it were - all nWoD stuff has to go to them for approvals, as does all Exalted stuff - but so far they mostly seem to just let it sit around for a week or two and then go 'yeah sure whatever.'

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011



Loomer posted:

Let the record show that forums user Plutonis is in favour of the Full rear end-surprise sex Stiffness edition of Vampire.

Scared of true power?

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007


Fallen Rib

Plutonis posted:

It definitely should. VtM, Kult and other badarse 90s games are better stuff than most of the crap the industry churns out today.

I, too, consider quoting Fields of the Nephilim to be the crowning glory of tabletop game design.

Also, Kult has been a steaming hot turd ever since the first edition boxed set in 1991.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010




Lipstick Apathy

W20? They're still producing content for the d20 version of World of Darkness?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018


gradenko_2000 posted:

W20? They're still producing content for the d20 version of World of Darkness?

No, that's Monte Cook's World of Darkness.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Mors Rattus posted:

World of Darkness now refers to the old WoD; as yet, 5th edition has yet to have any books released, but does have some utterly execrable tablet games.

There was that really bad beta rules doc for Vampire 5e that came out a few months ago.

gradenko_2000 posted:

W20? They're still producing content for the d20 version of World of Darkness?

They're talking about the 20th Anniversary edition of the oWoD books

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK AND
TWICE AS TALL


I'm going to make a chart we can all reference to keep this straight, because goddamn.

I just need to find some red string and a cork board.

I super stole that joke from Inklesspen

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011



Comrade Koba posted:

I, too, consider quoting Fields of the Nephilim to be the crowning glory of tabletop game design.

Also, Kult has been a steaming hot turd ever since the first edition boxed set in 1991.

It was bloody murderous fun since I started playing it with my high school buddies and it still is. Shout out to Azaghal, Carlos Chacal and cousin Vanessa!

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006


Heeeeeeey

Comrade Gorbash posted:

I'm going to make a chart we can all reference to keep this straight, because goddamn.

I just need to find some red string and a cork board.

I super stole that joke from Inklesspen

As long as you stop burning mail addressed to Pepe Silva.

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

If you ever need the Defenders drawn as ponies or the cast of Doctor Who, I know where to hook you up.

Please don't want those things.


Loomer posted:

Let the record show that forums user Plutonis is in favour of the Full rear end-surprise sex Stiffness edition of Vampire.

This has always been the extent of Plutonis' brand, now then and forever.

Lord_Hambrose
Nov 21, 2008

*a foul hooting fills the air*


Plutonis posted:

It definitely should. VtM, Kult and other badarse 90s games are better stuff than most of the crap the industry churns out today.

Blades in the Dark exists, dawg

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009


So which of the 20 lines are infected? The only one I have is Vampire 20 from before the new regime took over, so I'm safe there, but I was thinking about Mage 20 as a possible pickup, was that one early enough to avoid the plague?

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Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


remusclaw posted:

So which of the 20 lines are infected? The only one I have is Vampire 20 from before the new regime took over, so I'm safe there, but I was thinking about Mage 20 as a possible pickup, was that one early enough to avoid the plague?

M20 is mainly written by Phil "Changing Breeds" Brucato so its bad for a host of other reasons.

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