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Popehoist
Feb 5, 2008

There you go rubens, all your fault! You went on the wrong side of the car!


I always liked the interpretation of Index that Academy City is actually just a giant mental health facility for problem children who believe they have special powers, and Touma is the only normal one in the city so he has to deal with all these annoying kids and occasionally has to punch them in the face to snap them out of their chuunibyou delusions.

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ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


I'm going to forever believe that is cannon because it is fantastic.

The 19th Person
Sep 25, 2010

The devious DARKBRINGER plans to dominate first Lightbringer, and then the entire Midwest!


Popehoist posted:

I always liked the interpretation of Index that Academy City is actually just a giant mental health facility for problem children who believe they have special powers, and Touma is the only normal one in the city so he has to deal with all these annoying kids and occasionally has to punch them in the face to snap them out of their chuunibyou delusions.

The truth about his imagine breaker is that he's such an aggressively boring person that people's delusions and fantasies become more boring around him.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


The 19th Person posted:

The truth about his imagine breaker is that he's such an aggressively boring person that people's delusions and fantasies become more boring around him.

The actual truth from the novels, or at least so far (since there have been about four different "truths" to imagine breaker), is somehow even less believable than this.

Novel spoilers: Imagine Breaker is the manifestation of magicians' collective fear that their warping of reality will cause them to irrevocably change a fundamental aspect of the world and forget what it should be. This fear coalesces into a reference point for the world, canceling all such warping on touch. Right now that reference point happens to be in Touma's right arm.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3



College Slice

I had forgotten that at this time Touma had lost his memories by now

I never minded him, it's through him we get to see how awesome the setting as a whole is.

legoman727
Mar 13, 2010

by exmarx


Kuroko's VA is just the best.

But ugh. I guess we're going to be stuck with Touma for quite a while. And he's still impossibly boring.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


legoman727 posted:

Kuroko's VA is just the best.

But ugh. I guess we're going to be stuck with Touma for quite a while. And he's still impossibly boring.
Even Kuroko points out he's dull.

Well, it seems they are re imagining the entire Radio Noise project but more closely to the Railgun manga. There is literally no reason to watch Index apart from when Kuroko appears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUjk4WnVvOk

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo


That look of hurt and disappointment on the Sister when Misaka chased her away was utterly crushing.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


JosephWongKS posted:

That look of hurt and disappointment on the Sister when Misaka chased her away was utterly crushing.

Which episode was this?

e: If it's from the recent episode then nvm. I hate that Funimation only airs shows several days after they air on TV.

ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jun 22, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


The worst part of Touma isn't his personality. I actually kinda like him. It's that whenever he shows up, Misaka loses 90% of her distinct personality traits in favor of becoming a generic tsundere. Honestly, I don't even mind generic tsunderes a lot of the time, but not only does Misaka just not fit that role... her and Touma have next to no chemistry. When they're together in that capacity, they have like two notes to hit total, and they barely ever hit the one actually amusing one of Touma doing something heroically stupid, Misaka being really unimpressed.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Jun 22, 2013

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



Endorph posted:

The worst part of Touma isn't his personality. I actually kinda like him. It's that whenever he shows up, Misaka loses 90% of her distinct personality traits in favor of becoming a generic tsundere. Honestly, I don't even mind generic tsunderes a lot of the time, but not only does Misaka just not fit that role... her and Touma have next to no chemistry. When they're together in that capacity, they have like two notes to hit total, and they barely ever hit the one actually amusing one of Touma doing something heroically stupid, Misaka being really unimpressed.

That's almost exactly how I feel about it too. She goes from being a cool protagonist and an actual character to just being an archetype, and while it's probably supposed to be representing how she gets flustered around him it instead comes across as jarringly amateurish writing.

Maybe it's just a byproduct of it being a spinoff and of the welding the original LNs together with the Railgun manga.

UP AND ADAM
Jan 24, 2007

Tempered by the fires of Hell,his iron will remained steadfast through the passage that preys upon the weak. For alone he was the Hell Walker who sought retribution in all quarters and he hunted the slaves of Doom with barbarous cruelty




The parts where Biribiri intersected with what, I gather, are early scenes from Index seemed stilted and weird, like they were very painfully purposefully the first scenes of the show so Misaka can't reveal or show too much emotion because she's not the "main character" of those scenes. Then they added internet monologues for her and Kuroko which were additionally stilted and artificial. The endless dark conspiracy plot itself isn't too interesting either, so I guess the redeeming part of this episode was the silly scenes with Misaka's school girl friends, which is not a great sign.

Redcrimson
Mar 3, 2008

Second-stage Midboss Syndrome


I dunno, I actually think this episode expanded on Misaka's character quite a bit. Generic harem hijinks aside, you get a good glimpse of just how much the Level 6 Project actually affects her emotionally. Particularly the fact that Misaka has begun to blame herself for the deaths of her Sisters, and questions whether or not she deserves a happy life. It's a much better set-up for her ultimate decision at the end of the arc, which felt incredibly forced and stupid in Index.

Also, I find it funny that Misaka's new plan seems to be destroying Tree Diagram, with the logic that Academy City couldn't possibly cover it up. Except that a certain dull gentlemen already did that accidentally and nobody gave two shits.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


Future and minor Index spoilers in quote:

Redcrimson posted:

Also, I find it funny that Misaka's new plan seems to be destroying Tree Diagram, with the logic that Academy City couldn't possibly cover it up. Except that a certain dull gentlemen already did that accidentally and nobody gave two shits.

Yeah this is hilarious. I've never read the manga and I didn't catch if there were any hints of that in the novels/Index anime, so when I realized what was going on I started laughing my head off.

Parpy
Oct 22, 2009

Ducklings have been known to imprint on, and imitate, species in close vicinity -- especially cats and dogs.

~SMcD

JosephWongKS posted:

That look of hurt and disappointment on the Sister when Misaka chased her away was utterly crushing.

Oh god. It gets really heartbreaking in the manga when she returns to the lab for a final checkup on her "big day", and brings it to their attention that her chest hurts for some reason She is experiencing heartache from being rejected by Misaka, having been yelled at, told to go away and stop haunting her. While discussing clones in her presence during the checkup, the scientists candidly express how disgusted they'd be to have to interact with a clone of themselves, so she ends up even further convinced that she's just a disposable worthless being. Soon thereafter, she dutifully goes forth to get her circulatory system basically turned inside out by Accelerator in an alleyway (chapter 33). I don't know if they're going to include that scene, but they really should because that emotional investment in the clones is what makes us want Misaka to triumph over the shitheads behind that Level 6 Shift horrorshow.

Parpy fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 23, 2013

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



Kurokowns

Poor girl, maybe one day she'll find a nice girlfriend rather than lusting hopelessly after Misaka.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3



College Slice

a kitten posted:

Kurokowns

Poor girl, maybe one day she'll find a nice girlfriend rather than lusting hopelessly after Misaka.

Is she actually gay (i.e any evidence she generally finds other women attractive, not just disliking men in general) or more Misakasexual? It'ld be nice if it was the former.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Must be fuckin' nice!


Raenir Salazar posted:

Is she actually gay (i.e any evidence she generally finds other women attractive, not just disliking men in general) or more Misakasexual? It'ld be nice if it was the former.

Given that she show zero interest in the women in the series that even the other female characters eye up, it's certainly the latter.

ChronoReverse
Oct 1, 2009


Certain events in the manga so far indicate to me that she's likely just Misakasexual

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Raenir Salazar posted:

Is she actually gay (i.e any evidence she generally finds other women attractive, not just disliking men in general) or more Misakasexual? It'ld be nice if it was the former.

She doesn't seem to care about men or women either way, unless they're Misaka, or potentially a rival for Misaka's affections. She has been known to pursue a Sister maniacally(she had to be shot to get her off the Sister), and wouldn't mind Misaka's mom either.

So yeah, she's just Misakasexual.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


veekie posted:

She doesn't seem to care about men or women either way, unless they're Misaka, or potentially a rival for Misaka's affections. She has been known to pursue a Sister maniacally(she had to be shot to get her off the Sister), and wouldn't mind Misaka's mom either.

So yeah, she's just Misakasexual.
Please elaborate on this. LN?

Dan7el
Dec 7, 2008



Falken posted:

Please elaborate on this. LN?
Unless it's a side-story that I didn't read, I don't believe there is any incident where Light Novel Spoiler Kuroko meets any of the Sisters. In fact, Misaka intentionally hides the fact they exist from Kuroko for this very reason: she doesn't want Kuroko going after them.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Falken posted:

Please elaborate on this. LN?

Naw, just something a Sister discussed with Last Order.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo


Will the Sisters get more time in the limelight after this arc is over? Their deadpan humour (as illustrated by 9982 before her untimely and cruel demise) is one of the best things in this series.

JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jun 25, 2013

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I guess the genie is out of the bottle regarding whether the lot of them will survive this arc (big surprise there), but at the very least the next big arc in the manga has featured one of them relatively prominently. They have a variety of appearances in Index, of course.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

You may want to spoiler that in case someone who hasn't watched Index complains.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Requires Hate does Railgun

http://requireshate.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/a-certain-scientific-railgun-or-how-to-beat-a-white-person/

quote:

Another thing of note–yes, at least one of these girls is a lesbian–is that Railgun has a cast that’s almost entirely female. The protagonist, female. Her roommate, female. Their non-powered friends, female. The leader of the local militia/police, female. The scientist who plays a pivotal role, female. The villain, female. There’s one major male character and I don’t think he has as many as five speaking lines in twenty-four episodes.

However, I also picked this image to make something obvious: this is a show that’s full of loving fanservice. There’s an episode where they go to a virtual beach–I poo poo you not–and wear swimsuits, even though the place they actually live in doesn’t have a real beach. The sexuality politics are shot to hell too, since Kuroko (beribboned girl here) expresses her lesbian interest in her roommate and revered senpai Misaka by sexually harassing her repeatedly. Misaka crushes on a boy, because haha homophobia. Oh, and Saten–the girl in the back with the lone flower in her hair–constantly flips her friend Uiharu’s skirt up for fun.

Yeah.

Other than Misaka’s freaky heterosexuality though, most of the girls in the show aren’t too interested in boys. There’s also a weird frequency of the girls running into thugs who want to mug or sexually assault them, and there are entire episodes devoted to Kuroko or Misaka electrocuting, beating up, or otherwise curbstomping adult men–and Telestina is herself following in her grandfather’s footsteps when she does her evil plans (i.e. she’s following a man). The men in this series are absent, ineffectual, thuggish, untrustworthy or all of the above (the sequel, Railgun S, features a male villain, which fits into these patterns: he’s a psychopathic psychic thug). I’d also question why they go around targeting girls who wear the uniform of a school known for a high concentration of espers–many of whom can murder them in various interesting ways–but I’m not going to say no to frequent, hilarious sequences of the girls beating men up for the hell of it.

Railgun is meant to be a “side-story” to the main attraction, A Certain Magical Index which features smug shithead teenage male wish fulfillment vomit and everyone involved with it ought to be executed, but it stands alone just fine and you can sort of ignore said vomit as long as you don’t seek out the “main show” as the protagonist of said vomit only makes rare cameos in Railgun. It’s ultimately kind of mediocre, with terrible pacing and swathes of filler episodes that can be safely skipped (including but not limited to the beach episode), and what little can be said for its gender politics is demolished when you consider Misaka’s heterosexual crush or Kuroko’s orientation being expressed solely through sexual harassment.

Wallrod
Sep 27, 2004
Stupid Baby Picture

Though anime is never to be taken seriously on pain of becoming an awful human being (similarly blogging), I love that description of Index.

Wallrod fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jun 25, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Or maybe Index is just a mediocre show with some moments of bad writing. I don't think it's really 'kill everyone involved' bad, even from a sexism standpoint. Maybe my standards are really low from years of anime, iunno.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jun 25, 2013

SatansBestBuddy
Sep 26, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


I do kinda love this comment in the, uh, comments:

vaiyt posted:

If you overanalyze it, Touma is a perfect metaphor for the animu aficionado fanbase. His power is to literally ignore how awesome the girls are, fizzling the powers out of anything he touches. To complete the image, his “anti-power” is stored on his right hand! How apt is that?

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Endorph posted:

Or maybe Index is just a mediocre show with some moments of bad writing. I don't think it's really 'kill everyone involved' bad, even from a sexism standpoint. Maybe my standards are really low from years of anime, iunno.

The blog would be extra meaningless if it didn't try to villify the writers for Misaka's fairly innocent crush (while simultaneously giving the overall show a pass for having cute girls doing cute things while beating up "men").

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


fivegears4reverse posted:

The blog would be extra meaningless if it didn't try to villify the writers for Misaka's fairly innocent crush (while simultaneously giving the overall show a pass for having cute girls doing cute things while beating up "men").
Going through the blog, I think the blog writer is the sort of person who thinks having any heterosexual romances at all is sexist.

I mean, Misaka's crush is pretty dumb in my opinion, but it's not because it's a girl crushing on a dude, it's because her and Touma rarely have much of a dynamic going and she basically has a crush on him from the instant they meet without any sort of development - even just a small little moment where she realizes she likes him. She just kinda jumps from 'go away' to 'go away, b-baka.' That seems like something the reviewer would want to point out if they're attacking the wish fulfillment angle.

Wallrod
Sep 27, 2004
Stupid Baby Picture

Endorph posted:

Or maybe Index is just a mediocre show with some moments of bad writing. I don't think it's really 'kill everyone involved' bad, even from a sexism standpoint. Maybe my standards are really low from years of anime, iunno.

Under the 'never take anime seriously' clause i don't actually wish death upon the creators, it just summed up, somewhat extremely, what annoyed me about that series, I still watched it and enjoyed parts. I make no judgement here in the animu depths.

Also, that blog is an exemplary case of Poe's law, except for maybe that a parody wouldn't be so extensively and deeply characterised... she makes some salient points about sexism but there's a whole lot of (THIS ANIME IS GOOD BECAUSE ALL OF THE CHARACTERS ARE WOMEN TAKE THAT NECKBEARDS )

Wallrod fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jun 25, 2013

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Endorph posted:

Going through the blog, I think the blog writer is the sort of person who thinks having any heterosexual romances at all is sexist.

I mean, Misaka's crush is pretty dumb in my opinion, but it's not because it's a girl crushing on a dude, it's because her and Touma rarely have much of a dynamic going and she basically has a crush on him from the instant they meet without any sort of development - even just a small little moment where she realizes she likes him. She just kinda jumps from 'go away' to 'go away, b-baka.' That seems like something the reviewer would want to point out if they're attacking the wish fulfillment angle.

I think the "small moment" is basically "shattering her illusions something something you don't have to die *touma-punch*", but I get you. I'd still say it all started off about as innocent as can be (younger kid attracted to older kid), but then they actually went through some poo poo together and things progressed from there.

The railgun series does a bit more to try an justify their connection. Touma's not like most of the males she's run into at Academy City. He's twice as dumb but earnestly sweet in an endearingly inadvertent way. He's simultaneously stood up to her while also standing up for her at what we have now seen to be the absolute worst time of her life. It is a far sight better than being propositioned for Horrorshow Level 6 Clone x Woodchipper Experiment or dates with men who look three times her age (either because they really are three times her age or because it's easier to make throwaway thugs look like rejected character designs of badguys from Final Fight).

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Wallrod posted:

THIS ANIME IS GOOD BECAUSE ALL OF THE CHARACTERS ARE WOMEN TAKE THAT NECKBEARDS
To be fair, considering how rare it is it's perfectly acceptable to enjoy something just because it has an all-female cast, and I think she even ends her review of Last Exile: FAM (assuming that's what you're referring to) by saying it's a pretty average show that she just has a softspot for.


fivegears4reverse posted:

I think the "small moment" is basically "shattering her illusions something something you don't have to die *touma-punch*", but I get you. I'd still say it all started off about as innocent as can be (younger kid attracted to older kid), but then they actually went through some poo poo together and things progressed from there.
Nah, I agree that it's pretty innocent all-around. I just wish she kept more of her personality when he was around, basically.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


Endorph posted:

I mean, Misaka's crush is pretty dumb in my opinion, but it's not because it's a girl crushing on a dude, it's because her and Touma rarely have much of a dynamic going and she basically has a crush on him from the instant they meet without any sort of development - even just a small little moment where she realizes she likes him.

Novel spoilers: This hasn't happened in the anime yet, but she does eventually get this moment, in volume 16:

"The girl called Misaka Mikoto had realized something.
It wasn't anything that had to do with reason or logic or dignity or appearances or shame or reputation, it was just a part of her very own heart, evidently the nucleus of the human Misaka Mikoto herself. The wretched, unsightly, selfish, unreasonable - and yet despite all this, honest and frank and "human".
--snipping some poo poo--
Misaka Mikoto couldn't stop him in the end.
The reason was not because her spirit had been beaten because of his actions.
It was because part of the emotion she had realized pressed against her chest in such a manner that she couldn't move a single finger."


As to how the hell this reconciles with her behavior up to that point, the way I interpret it is that her whole behavior around him stems from her actually being confused and frustrated with why she can't seem to be herself around him, and this actually does make her angry. So she ends up acting like a stupid tsundere in her anger. Even that's a pretty unreasonable interpretation but it's the only relatively consistent one I can come up with. It would be easier to just handwave this whole thing away as Kamachi Kazuma being a bad author, which he is, but oh well

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Also she really likes to beat people up and he can take it. Simultaneously he's frustrating because he can't be beaten up that way. It makes him more interesting to her than people who are twitching on the ground after pissing her off.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo


veekie posted:

Also she really likes to beat people up and he can take it. Simultaneously he's frustrating because he can't be beaten up that way. It makes him more interesting to her than people who are twitching on the ground after pissing her off.

I guess that counts as a solid foundation for a healthy relationship in anime-land.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


I agree with 90% of the words of that crazy lady. It's high time someone took the show to task for what's wrong with it (and commend it for what it does right).

On one hand, it's got a whole cast of Strong Female Characters who can stand on their own perfectly well. On yet the other hand, it has some absolutely horrifying issues with the otaku gaze sexualising underage girls. Like there's a filler chapter of the manga that by rights should be illegal in my country.

Kuroko in a way sums up my problems with the show. On one hand, she basically acts as a proxy for the audience to harass and degrade Mikoto. On yet the other, her voice actor is a genius and somehow managed to fit together both haughty nasal lilt and make her sound like a hilarious 80 year old woman pretending to be a teenage girl.

Finally, the writer really likes putting the girls in compromising situations that they have no choice but to break out with force. Just where the hell do they get these swarms of creepy gang members? And why do they insist on going all out when fighting kids?

Oh well, the only reason I bothered watching Railgun 1 is because Railgun S Ep4 made such an impression on me.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


I'm pretty sure every single other post in this thread is 'The fanservice is dumb but it's still a pretty good show,' though. The OP of this very thread even gives the show poo poo for it. I think we've all taken the show to task for what it does wrong. Nobody's really disagreeing with that lady on the fanservice is dumb front, either.

EDIT: Though if you're talking about the rest of the internet then 90% of the comments on Funimation's uploads of the first season are 'where the hell is Touma i want Touma.'

Endorph fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Jun 25, 2013

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